H28 mini milestone

[Larks]

It's been raining here for the last 3 days so have been working out some frustrations on my (until yesterday) yet to be started H28 restoration.

I'm quite pleased with myself now to have completely stripped out the interior so that I can see what I have to work with and start planning the rebuild layout. The decks/coachhouse and cockpit are yet to be completely removed so that I can start from scratch with a bare hull but it still feels like a good start and everything looks in pretty good shape so far.

I've also found that a lot of the furniture framing is actually huon pine. I had suspected there was some in there and after taking a few pieces down to a shipwright who is restoring another huon pine vessel close by I've been able to have it confirmed, so a bit of a bonus there.

I'd post some pic's but I still haven't been able to get a handle on that yet
cheers
Greg

[Larks]

<img src="http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r200/xavesolo/?action=view&current=guttingcabin006.jpg"border="0"alt="happy (http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r200/xavesolo/?action=view&current=guttingcabin006.jpg) wrecker">

[Larks]

sorry - that didn't look riight either - any tips? (polite ones!!)
cheers
Greg

[adampet]

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r200/xavesolo/guttingcabin006.jpg

That what you're after?

Adam

[Larks]

yes but how did you manage that?
thanks
Greg

[Oscarvan]

[eye emme gee]URL of your photo[/eye emme gee]

Where eye=I
emme=M
gee=G

[Larks]

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r200/xavesolo/?action=view&current=guttingcabin010.jpg

[Larks]

what the #$%& am I doing wrong here with posting images? I've tried using the instructions in the FAQ, I've had a look at previous image posting advice via the "search" facility (using the little mountain icon and deleting anything after jpg) and I'm still stuffing it up. And sorry Oscarvan your advice was just a little too obscure??
The answer must something painfully simple and obvious?
Help anyone?
cheers
Greg

[Larks]

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r200/xavesolo/guttingcabin010.jpghttp://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r200/xavesolo/04022008.jpghttp://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r200/xavesolo/04022008006.jpg

Never mind - tenacity (or belligerence) has won the day

Anyway- here's the stripped out interior - a bit odd that a few of the forward floors are set back from the frames about 2". This doesn't seem to have been a problem since 1967 but I'm thinking of pulling up the floors to check the bolts and for any soft wood where they seem to still be a bit damp so I could remedy this if anyone thinks it advisable (or add extra floors?) for further longevity.

I'm also thinking about shaving off about 1" from the bottoms to allow me to remove any soft wood and scribe them more neatly to the hull (some are a bit of a rough fit) and possibly also shape/shave the tops down in the middle where the cabin soles will sit (leave the sides high where they'll be under the bunks). This last for aesthetics and to give a little more head room when I rebuild the cabin top more in keeping with the original H28 per an earlier suggestion from Jay.

At the moment the floors are about 8 1/2" deep and about 2" thick so they seem reasonably substantial compared to some of the other H28's that I've looked at about the area. However without yet acquiring the plans to see what was originally specified I'd be interested in anyones opinion re taking them down to about 6" x 2" essentially for the sake of lowering the cabin sole.

cheers
Greg

[Banjo]

It's not your doing Greg, looks like WB have blacklisted PhotoBucket links for some reason.

[Larks]

Hi Banjo, I kept trawling through the posts on images via the search function and found one by Paladin wher the Bigfella came up with the answer:

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=73135&highlight=posting+photos
"With Photobucket, just click on the words IMG code associated with the photo in your album, come back to this window and go rightclick <paste> and, Bob's yer uncle. No need for clicking on image controls or anything. Picture doesn't show until you hit <Post Quick Reply>"

very frustrating but now that I've got it sorted I'll probably give everyone the complete #&%$s with posting photos.

Meanwhile though - that Sweet Pea is looking the goods, I've been having a look at your web site off and on. I have a Hartley TS16 which is somewhat similar - lots of fun, so I'm pretty sweet on the Sweet Pea as well.

cheers
Greg

[Larks]

One more pic - just 'cause I can!!!

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r200/xavesolo/guttingcabin014.jpg

[Banjo]

It's not your doing Greg, looks like WB have blacklisted PhotoBucket links for some reason.

Doh! Silly me.... I am at work so of course I cant see photobucket, it's filtered through our Internet provider for the school.

Ahh great life the "Public Service" :D

Oh thanks for the interest in my humble little project mate.
Ya know that's why I chose to build this one, so I can eat Hartleys for breakfast ;p.. Nar I was real close to building a new TS18 but then spotted JW's Sweet Pea and had one of those moments when ya just know when ya gut feeling is spot on.

Keep thos piccies comming mate, we love piccies in here. :D

[Jim Ledger]

I'd think twice about pulling up the floors unless you spot some real signs of rot. "Don't fix what ain't broke" and all that. It's easy to get carried away with dismantling, harder to replace what you've taken apart. If the floors have worked OK since the 60's, then there's a good chance that the builders knew what was required as far as fit, number, and placement goes. You could shave a bit off the tops in place, if you've a mind.

Have a good poke around with an icepick and if you don't find any softness, leave it alone.

[shamus]

Ditto what Jim said. Looks like you're making good progress, but it will take a lot of work to get it back together, so don't do anything you don't have to. :)

[Jay Greer]

The H28s built in the far East that had iron ballast also had galvanized iron floor bolts. These often do have a tendency to rust through at the junction of the floor and fore foot and other keel components. Checking can be done with a hammer tap. If the bolt goes "ting" as opposed to "thunk" it is, most likely ok. When in doubt, check one out!
Jay

[Larks]

Thanks guys,

Jay, the floor bolts appear to be copper (no ring when tapping them) whilst the keel bolts to be stainless steel. I haven't attempted to remove any as yet (still only playing boats on Sundays at the moment).

What do you think about the idea of lowering the floor profiles by about 2" to about 6"-6 1/2" to lower the cabin sole and clean up their fit to the hull -leaving them shaped up the sides so that they don't loose their width outboard? Also any concerns with the forward floors sitting off the frames? There are 2 that sit completely off from top to bottom (@2") three others appear off in the photo but are against the frames at their base and about 1" off at the tops.

Also does "Bright Star" have a wooden engine bed or is it as described by LFH in angle iron or pipe? My nice solid wooden engine bed has about enough room for my wife to get her dainty little arm in to open the sea cock but there's no way I'd ever be able to clean the strum box (I tried before I first ever started her up and in the end had to just cross my fingers - which I'm not much into at sea).

Many thanks - bye the way Jay, your mail box must be full - I tried dropping you a message a couple of days ago (but I got a message saying that you are just in such popular demand that there wasn't room for mine.)

cheers
Greg

[Jay Greer]

Hi Greg,
Sounds like your floor bolts are just fine. Floors do not always fay perfectly to the frames. Can you detect fore and aft fastenings that tie the frames to them? Often the garboard will be fastened into the end grain of the floors as well as the frames, making the attachment stronger. Check your floor height against Herreshoff's Plans. He designed the boat as light as he dared and there is a considerable amount of torque that is levered in that area. I would be concerned about weakening anything there unless you are using natural grown or cast bronze floors! "Bright Stars" engine bearers are angle iron.
I cleared out my extra mail today so you should be able to post there again.
Fair Winds,
Jay

[Larks]

Thanks Jay,

I haven't yet bought the plans from Mystic (it's a house/budget/wife/promise thing) so my apologies about being rather cheeky in capitlising on your wealth of knowledge on all things H28. (I thought the floors may be just another cost free thing I could play with on my Sunday off until the house is finished.)

I'll start scraping away some paint this weekend to see what other fastenings might be holding the floors to the frames.

BTW, I saw another H28 yesterday in Brisbane with the original coach roof design like "Bright Star", the first that I've seen along this line in Oz. I wasn't able to get close enough to it for a good look nor to see its name but what I could see did look very nice. I'm hoping to head back this weekend to try and get a closer look.

Any chance of a pic' of your engine bed set up? I won't be doing anything much until I get the plans (and possibly buy a new engine) but I'd be interested to see how different it is to what I have.

cheers
Greg

[banjoman]

Good work Larks! For what it is worth, Starduster's engine sits on angle iron as well. I can try to find some pictures of the setup if you are interested. Access to the top of the Atomic 4 is easy. The sides and bottom are a pain in the rear.

[Larks]

Thanks Mike,
I certainly would appreciate any photos that you can come up with. How's Starduster coming along - have you been out since Christmas? (and how's that H28 web site idea looking??)

Also Jay/Mike - should there be a hull number somewhere for H28's and if so is there a traditional location? Any idea whether there is a registry for the design or did it become just a free for all?

cheers
Greg

[banjoman]

I spoke too soon. I thought I had some pics of the engine bed when we had the engine out. I'll have to ask my brother to see if he has any.

Starduster has a nameplate from Far East Yachts in the cabin. The hull number is also engraved in a structural member above the v-birth. Both are in plain view.

We haven't had her out since those pictures were taken. The whole month of January was a soggy, rainy mess here in Northern California.
Mike

[Little Billy]

I have an H28 and I just finished stripping out the interior and the engine in order to expose the structure. The planking and most of the structure (what I can see) looks pretty good so far, except for the frames. I have many broken frames to repair and I'm planning to do the repairs in place, that is without sistering up and punching a bunch of new holes in the planks. I have spent many weeks massing the materials and mastering the different repair techniques. The haulout is scheduled for February 16th.

In reference to some of your earlier questions:
1) None of the frames in my boat are set back from the floors.
2) My engine was set on a stack of logs but it ain't goin back that way. It was really done badly.
3) I have a data plate attached to the deck structure just forward of the mast. It has a hull number(?) and a weight but no info on the builder. I would really be stoked if I can somehow track down the builder.

It was once named Star Bound but it was changed to Sona Maraudh about 8 years ago. It's been in northern California for some time- does anybody know this boat?

[Jay Greer]

Don't know the boat but the name sure is nice. Good luck on the reframe.
Jay

[Larks]

Hey LB - welcome to the club.........Keep us up to speed with some photos and progress. I'm interested to know what your hull planking is and also what you plan for the new engine bed? I take it you are doing a full interior refit - what is your deck profile like - the original single level design or a stepped coachhouse?
cheers
Greg

[Little Billy]

Thanks for the welcome!
Photos will follow but it may be a while- I'm still recovering from one of those upload sessions that makes you want to smash something before it's over.
This boat has mahogany planking, teak deck (over plywood) and white oak frames. It has a wooden mast and boom. All the fittings and rigging are just like those detailed in 'Practical Cruising Designs' except not in a ketch rig. This is a sloop rigged version and it has a boomkin arrangement which I haven't seen in any plans or descriptions. It has monel keel bolts and bronze fasteners throughout.
The interior is still in good shape and I can reach most of the frame repairs with most of it still in place.
The cabin house is the stepped up dog house style and it will stay that way for now. The hull, rig and powerplant are priorities right now. Besides I'm 6 foot 4 and I need the headroom.
I'm leaning towards a welded steel truss type of engine mount.

[Jay Greer]

L. Francis did design a sloop rig for the H28. This rig incorporated a set of jumper struts but I do not recall it having been set up with a boomkin. He also designed a set of running backs that could be used both for the sloop and the ketch rig. In my opinion, the running backs greatly improve the up wind performance of both versions.

I have sailed extensively on H28's that were both set up with either the raised dog house or the low deck house design and must say that I do prefer the lower deck house as it affords a clear view ahead when steering both under power or sail. "Bright Star" is set up with the origional low deck house and I find it no problem to move about in the cabin, even though, I am nearly six feet in height.
Jay

[Little Billy]

I found plans for the sloop rigged H-28 at the Ships Plans Library, Mystic Seaport. One drawing even has "..backstay attachment for the sloop rigged H-28" in the title. A set will be ordered at first opportunity.

For looks I would prefer the low cabin roof as originally drawn by LFH. Good forward visibility is also very high on the list. If future wood repairs call for major cabin rework then I would consider a change but for now the hull repairs are a priority.

[Jay Greer]

Certainly, it is not beyond the scope of the home boat builder to make their own backstay tangs as per the Herreshoff plans. If you wish to make your own, I can walk you through it as I just made up a set for "Bright Star". It will save you a considerable expense.
Jay

[Little Billy]

I meant to say "a set of plans will be ordered at first opportunity". Once the plans have been compared to my current setup then we'll see about making parts. I appreciate and respect the advice and guidance of those who have been there before. Thanks-

[Little Billy]

This is a test of the procedure spelled out by Thorpe under the first "extreme boatbuilding" string, dated 2-9-08 4:22 AM. This jpg is/was the #1 engine on a Boeing 747. It was chosen at random for this test.
http://http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1856/10662925/19023078/303563289.jpg

[Little Billy]

This is the second test using the same image.

http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1856/10662925/19023078/303563289.jpg

[Little Billy]

Now I have a working procedure- Thanks Thorpe!

Reframe pictures to follow.

[banjoman]

Larks,

Here are some very unglamorous pictures of Starduster's engine bed. These were obviously taken right after the engine was pulled and before we cleaned up and painted. I have higher resolution pictures if you would like them.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z98/brewmastermsu/DSC01652.jpg

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z98/brewmastermsu/DSC01653.jpg

[Larks]

Thanks Banjoman,

I take it from the pics that your engine sits completely under the cockpit and is quite well down into the bilge? Mine seems to come further forward into the saloon higher. Is yours an offset prop? I can't see a stern tube in the photos. It seems that the builder of mine has defied much of the Herreshoff advice including centring the stern tube.

I do plan to replace the Volvo Penta (budget pending) and rebuild the engine bed to allow access to the strum box so may well rebuild the entire set up including locating the stern tube where it should be and filling the huge propellor cut out in the rudder.

[banjoman]

Yes, the stern tube is centered. It is directly behind where cockpit drains cross in the second pic. The engine comes right up to the saloon and is completely covered by a hatch in the cockpit. I'll look for some more pics with the engine installed to give you an idea.

[banjoman]

Here is pic before we yanked the engine. Let me know if there is anything specific you would like pictures of. I'll be going to the boat in the next few days if our weather clears up.
This picture makes it look like there is a lot more room in there then there actually is.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z98/brewmastermsu/IMG_0270.jpg

[Larks]

That's great for now mate, I'll get hold of the plans and rethink this some more. I haven't pulled my engine out yet but I reckon I can set it up better than it is now one way or the other. thanks again

[Larks]

Banjo, here's a pic showing the position of my engine to see how it might compare to yours. I have 320mm (12 1/2") of shaft between the stern gland and gear box, the engine sits 270mm (10 1/2") into the cabin and overall the front of the engine is 1500mm (59") from where the shaft/stern gland hits the dead wood.

There may have been a case to try and keep the engine as far frward as possible when they built the boat for trim purposes so I'm going to have a close look at it to see what I can do about modifying the whole set up.

There was quite a bit of loose lead ballast and chain up forward when I started stripping her out but also both the water tank and diesel tank were located under the cockpit sides (just out of shot in these pics).

Bye the way ignore the crap in the foreground (cockpit, deck, hatch etc) it's all soon to be deep sixed.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/measurements005.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/011.jpg

[Concordia...41]

Looking good Greg!

BTW - that's not a mini milestone... milestones don't come in the mini variety ;)

Dave and I thought we were quite brilliant years back when he added a little to the floors. It started innocently enough with the floors around the mast step that - while perfectly fine - seemed like they could stand to be a little studier so he added a little to the width (under 1/2" added). Then because we had such a brilliant streak going and because the old floors had checked and split horizontally (with the grain), he added cross-grain vertical pieces to the outer edges.

They were beautiful and all. Frankly, some resembled Scandinavian furniture.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df02b3127cceb4bb860109b800000036108BYtG7lsxbq

The rub is now that I'm FINALLY (DID I SAY FINALLY :rolleyes:) getting the boat back together, NOTHING (DID I SAY NOTHING) FITS.

A lot of the cabinets and forward storage sat down on or in some cases over a floor. I say that in past tense, because none of the pieces fit now. What we're having to do with every single thing (in addition to the normal shimming and trimming) is to completely refit it around all the new work.

Lefty can tell you the joy involved in standing on one's head at the mast step and chiseling out one of those beefed up pieces so that the forward bulkhead remains vertical and not off by a couple of degrees because the new floor is wider... :rolleyes:

If you want to add months to your project, go ahead and be brilliant too... :p

[banjoman]

Yea, our engine is further back and lower.
That is pretty funny that you found loose lead up in the bow. We did too. A few ingots, a diver's belt or two. We haven't put them back yet and not sure if we will.

[Larks]

I'm hoping that moving my water tank below the cabin settee and watching the weight aft when rebuilding the deck/cockpit etc might help to resolve this, nevertheless I'm not giving away the extra lead for the moment.

[Little Billy]

I thought about relocating my prop shaft too until I read S.C.D by LFH. In it he shouts from the mountain tops how great it is to have the shaft out the port quarter on the H-28. (I think a lot of that was just pumping up his own design- later in the same book he talks about how great it is to have centerline thrust!) But what really got me was where he says that area of the keel is critical for strength. I will take him at his word on that one. Also his original design for this boat has the engine canted and the shaft out the side.

Earlier I searched this forum for threads about relocating the prop shaft and everyone says do not make the aperture in the rudder, make it in the stationary part of the hull if possible.

All these reasons plus 'I don't need any more work' have me convinced. I will re install it just the way it was- out the side.

Yes- my boat also had 250 lbs of lead pigs very far forward. Both my fuel and my water tanks were under the berths, only slightly aft of midships. And the flywheel would practically rub your leg as you worked in the galley! There was no enclosure and I think LFH specifically describes no enclosure on the H-28 but I'm not sure.http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1856/10662925/19091883/305056370.jpghttp://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1856/10662925/19091883/305056375.jpg

[Jay Greer]

"Bright Star" does have an off set prop that is angled off to port. Certainly, it bites clean water with each revolution rather than being hid behind the horn timber part of the time. Although, it takes some getting used to when backing down, I feel that the folding Gori prop and new set of sails are much better in the long run than having an in line mount for the engine and prop. I actually prefer boats without engines at all. But as L. Francis said, in his description of the H28. Many owners have to meet deadlines and so the H28 has an engine.
Jay

[The Bigfella]

Larks - you mentioned earlier a mix of copper and stainless bolts. It might be worth looking into that a bit - stainless can have problems at any time in an anerobic environment - leading to crevice corrosion ... and when mixed with other metals below the waterline you essentially have a big battery, corroding one of the metals.

I went through Grantala, removing every bit of stainless I could find that was within a foot of the waterline or below. Check it out yourself with a multimeter when the boat is in the water - measure the voltage between dissimilar metals in the wet zone.

[Larks]

Thanks guys,

Jay, this H28 handles like a pig under power. When I first got her I tried spending about an hour in open flat water to get a feel of how it handles going astern and so on before taking her into the travel lift. Usually 5 minutes of this sort of activity will tell me what the vessel wants to do and I've never had a problem in handling one. This one however was a totally different kettle of fish and no astern movement showed any similarity to another, she just does not want to go backwards.....The big chunk cut from her rudder to allow space for the prop' doesn't leave much rudder surface area.

As for forward speed? She seemed happy to do about 5-6 knots without me cranking up the engine so well and truly enough to get me up the Coomera river and into a berth or on a mooring if needed.

Also thanks for the advice on the galvanic stuff "The". In saying the bolts are copper I'm probably demonstrating my metalic ignorance to a tee, I should say they are the colour of copper.

It looks like all of the floor bolts are "copper" and all of the keel bolts are stainless. Once I have all of the superstructure stripped off and the engine out I am hoping try and get a look at the keel bolts to see what shape they are in.

I am assuming (but haven't yet questioned it) that I'll have to lift the hull off the external lead keel to be able to do this.

Also I've just scored a really nice well seasoned piece of Queensland spotted gum (1500mm x 190mm x 75mm) to replace the mast step and extend it further aft. Going by the weight of it I reckon it alone might resolve the previously mentioned ballast issue (that's only a slight exageration - it's bloody heavy!!)

[banjoman]

To say the H28 doesn't like reverse is an understatement!
Starduster is easy to handle and pretty nimble in forward but put her in reverse and I feel like I'm dragging an anchor!

[Jay Greer]

Well guys,
Until I switched props on "Bright Star", going to the cut down 12" Gori prop, putting the drive into forward or backward, at any speed was a joke! Working to weather or against an adverse current, nearly brought the boat to a halt! This was lucadris as the H28 has a very easily driven hull! I found that once the proper Gori prop was matched to the engine and boat, performance increased by nearly thirty percent! Which leads me to wonder where the hell the other prop experts were in the past!
Jay

[Larks]

Thanks Jay, there's another item on the wish list. I've sailed on a few yachts with these props and although I couldn't make any comparisons (ie same yachts with different props) they seemed faultless and the vessels were all very easy to handle.

Oh, did I mention that my prop' was on backwards when I pulled it out? It's not on a tapered shaft.

[banjoman]

We put in this 3 blade prop on when Starduster was on the hard. It replaced a 2 blade that I think was original.

http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html

We have been happy with it. She does very well in forward. It also does well in reverse when backing away from the dock. My only issue is that reverse does very little to slow the boat if you need to slow down for docking etc. I think this is more due to the placement of the prop than the prop itself.

[Larks]

So, another mini milestone for my H28, well two actually.

The first though: with a bit of a gap between contracts I managed to have a decent few days at home playing with boats and tractors (and my wife of course!! - oh.. and the dog). And I managed to devote a wee bit of that time to the H28, pretty well almost finishing the "strip out" stage of this little project before starting on the rebuild.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/P7010206.jpg
I now have the fibre glassed ply decks removed and pulled out most of the 60mm (2.4"?) deck nails. I'm not sure what the deck beams are but they weren't letting go of those nails easily!! The resorcinol that was used to glue the deck down also held very well so I still have quite a bit of cleaning up to do with a sander.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/P7030216.jpg

I also still need to strip the paint from rub rails so that I can find the plugs and unscrew them to remove them, they've been screwed to the strip planking of the hull with stainless screws and are proving a pain to remove.

I've uncovered all sorts of "interesting" building practices, repair jobs and bodgy fixes.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/P7010202.jpg

Most of the bodgy jobs are now all gone with the deck now but there are still a couple of deck beams that I need to replace where they've been filled with resin here and there for one reason or another. Fortunately there's only one that seems to be possibly a rot repair at the join where the aft corner of the cabin top was. There are also a few "singe" marks" above where the galley stove would have been that will benefit from a new beam.

I'll rebuild the cockpit frame somewhat to enlarge it - a few inches wider and probably a few inches aft as well.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/P7030225.jpg
I'm also keen to rebuild the engine bed to the original LFH steel frame concept for better access to the engine, including to the sea cock (which requires a very skinny arm and rubber elbow and wrist to reach as it is). But I won't be touching that until I'm ready to rebuild it and also until I know if I can afford to replace the Volvo Penta with a Beta or Yanmar.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/P7030229.jpg

I also intend to plug and replumb most of the current NINE holes in the hull!!!

The quarter knees - cute aren't they??

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/P7010214.jpg

The second mini milestone? I've finally come up with a name for "no name H28" and have aquired a nice piece of cedar through the kind generosity of Peter Sibley to carve it into. But I'll divulge that on another post when it's done.

[PeterSibley]

and we are looking forward to it ! :)

[Duncan Gibbs]

Great stuff Greg! :)