Pitch Pine/Longleaf Yellow Pine

[jeffery carson]

Hello,

I have just searched through the archives reading everything I could find on pitch pine.

I have about 800 bd ft of 5/4 stock I purchased ten years ago to deck a 26' sloop. Right now, I need new masts for a 36' ketch. Would this wood be suitable for a box construction mast, or is the resin going to prevent glue-up? I've a bucket of resourcinol glue I was planning on using. Acetone wipe down prior to glue-up? My planks are large enough that I can hi-grade around the pitchpockets.

Any information or experiences would be helpful.

Jeff

[Jim Ledger]

The weight of longleaf pine might be on the heavy side for a mast.

Nice wood, though, and a shame to use it where it's not put to it's best use.

[Bob Smalser]

Is it Pitch Pine or Longleaf Yellow Pine? Two very different species, Pitch being vastly inferior. But sometimes Longleaf and others were grouped together and labeled "Pitch Pine", much to everyone's confusion.

I suspect you bought Longleaf, but Ii you aren't certain, you can mail me a slice of end grain and I can key it out for you botanically.

[carioca1232001]

......If you don't know what you have, you can mail me a slice of end grain and I can key it out for you botanically.

We are at a dead loss at this end in manner of having someone with such skills !

Just curious, though, as how you go about solving the riddle.

Is it just by eyeballing (with a trained eye), or is there a need for at least a magnifying glass, if not a thin-section of the sample under a microscope ?

[Bob Smalser]

Just curious, though, as how you go about solving the riddle.

Is it just by eyeballing (with a trained eye), or is there a need for at least a magnifying glass, if not a thin-section of the sample under a microscope ?

Species ID is done with cookbooks called "keys". The components of woods are slightly different and can be seen under magnification, primarily looking at a thin slice of end grain.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/15559999/269185095.jpg

You can do much the same yourself with only a 10X hand lens and a book by Professor Bruce Hoadley titled Identifying Wood available at Amazon.com. His isn't as detailed as a botanical key, but he covers most commercial woods, including imported woods.

[jeffery carson]

Bob,

I am relatively sure it's actually longleaf yellow. I purchased it through Compton Lumber and spent quite a while working on the purchase process with them. I'd explained I wanted it for the deck and they researched a load of what had been tagged as pitch pine from the east coast. Supposedly it actually is high pitch content longleaf yellow. I ended up with so much because the mill had been setting the stuff aside when they found the higher pitch lumber, and Ihad to puchase the whole unit.

It's random lengths 10'-16' and random widths, 10"-18"+, 98% clear. It's really quite nice looking and various pieces I've finished are just beautiful varnished. Of course, having said all this, if you are willing to ID it, I'd be more than happy to send you a sample.

The old masts had extremely thick walls, and by going to a more appropriate wall thickness, I can keep the weights almost identical.
My biggest concern revolves around the glue-ability.

Thanks!

Jeff

[Oscarvan]

Ordered, thanks Bob.

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

Dixie Laminated, Inc was established at Waycross, Georgia in 1962-63 to manufacture glued laminated timbers for building construction. They set out using locally grown Southern Pine. They had gluing problems apparently because of the resin content of the local lumber. They ended up having to buy lumber elsewhere and have it shipped in. This caused their raw material price to increase. I assume they were using either casein adhesive or phenol resorcinol adhesive. The operation closed down for good in 1972.

My employer utilizes Southern Pine for our glued laminated timber using straight resorcinol or phenol resorcinol adhesive. We have never had any bonding problems in the 74 years we have been doing this type of work. I can't tell ya what group of Southern Pine lumber we are using.

Andreas

[Tom Lathrop]

My house has a large number of laminated pine beams of varying dimensions up to 13". They were made of 2x6 pine and glued with resorcinol under high pressure and then planed to size. Since most of the southern plantation pine is now loblolly, that is most likely what they are. Longleaf pine was once the mos common pine in NC but was almost completely harvested and is now hard to come by since it only exists in isolated tracts, many of them protected. SC had larger acreage of long leaf but much of it was devastated by hurricane Hugo in 1989.

Enough was found to plank the recently launched Spirit of South Carolina but no suitable longleaf heart pine was available so the keel is made of angelique from Surinam. It was shipped in on a large sailing vessel though.

Loblolly grows to mature cutting size quicker than longleaf so it is just economics. I suspect the same thing has taken place in other pine growing states.

[carioca1232001]

Thanks for clarifying the issue, Colonel.

I have included the book you recommend in my wish list, together with others authored by Dave Gerr who writes some rather lucid technical articles in Prof. Boatbuilder magazine.

I have currently some priorities that need to get out of the way, though....like for instance, getting my boat off its cradle and into the water, overdue by some 4 months !

[Bob Smalser]

While LLP is fussier about glues than Doug Fir, LLP should glue acceptably, providing the faying surface doesn't fall on a pitch pocket. DF and all softwood trees that heal their wounds with sap have the same potential problem. In LLP I'd contsruct a box section mast glued with resorcinol, cured under high clamping pressure and high heat and backed up with fasteners after curing. Screws alone don't apply sufficient clamping pressure.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn032.pdf

LLP is about as stiff as Doug Fir, which is in turn a bit stiffer than the typical Sitka Spruce design standard, so all meet the stiffness requirements of a mast.

The real problem with LLP it in a mast is its quantum leap in weight. Compared to more typical mast species that are all sufficiently strong, a large mast containing 10 cubic feet of wood will weight the following at 12% MC:

Sitka Spruce - 280lbs
Douglas Fir - 335 lbs
Longleaf Pine - 405lbs.

If the mast was designed for Sitka, you can compare all the mechanical strength features between LLP and Sitka and reduce the LLP scantling to the point where the worst case comparison equals the Sitka design standard. This will reduce mast weight to the minimum required by strength parameters, however you can quickly reach a point where there is not enough LLP board thickness remaining to safely glue and fasten. Accordingly, DF is a better substitute for Sitka, as you can generally reduce the scantling to a thickness you can work with and achieve only a slightly heavier mast than if you used more expensive spruce.

[Plover]

Bob,
I'm a re-registered new guy around here and I really enjoy your posts! However, I do have a question regarding masts. I myself have a gaff ketch and the masts are usable but, I've got a rent in the mizzen thats probably 8 feet long by 1 inch wide and a good 3 inches deep. The mast is clear and most likely Sitka it is a carved stalk as far as I can tell and the main on this critter is some type of pine loaded with checks and rents and also a carved stalk about 11 inches in diameter at the deck and tapers to the keel and stays for the most part almost 11 inches to the checks and hounds. I do plan on replaceing them when I can and the question I have have is; If I do use a different wood that weights more can I add balast to compensate the difference? I know this would raise the water line some, and if so, would you know the ramafications of this stunt? I don't want to be long winded here. I'm not sure if I should lay the masts up of carve them from trees? The main is about 35 feet and the mizzen is about 30, I'd really like to know your thoughts on this? Thanks in advance!
Paul

[Bob Smalser]

.... I'd really like to know your thoughts on this?

How a stick of wood behaves is one thing, but yours is a design question well beyond my scope. ;) MMD or Mr Greer are who to ask.

[Plover]

Thanks for your time Bob!

[Paul Pless]

I can't really answer your question directly, but if what you have is really long needle, its a fairly valuable wood, often selling in these parts for upwards of $8 - $12 a board foot (or more if its antique heart pine). Why not look to either trade it or sell it, so that you can get the ideal species for your application?

[TimH]

You could sell it or trade it for Fir or Sitka spruce. Then build your mast and not have to worry about it.

[Buddy Tabor]

Glue up of high pitch content longleaf pine wont be your problem. Your problem will lie in milling and sanding it. It gums up tools terribly and youll load up sandpaper with only a swipe or two. You might want to try fart rocks if you decide to use it.

As an aside, the folks in the south call what you apparently have "fatlighter" or "lighterwood" or sometimes just " lightwood". Very useful for starting a fire. No sure if Id want a boat deck made of it because it is so flammable.