Alternative to Red Led

[ri_craig]

What is the best alternative to red lead for priming white oak? I was thinking about starting with shellac to help stabilize the moisture content of the wood. It will all eventually be painted so any ideas on what my best option to red lead is for a primer?

[Ian McColgin]

Lead paint, red or white, is not always the best primer. You want it on the bottom if you're iron fastened but otherwise it's pretty pricy and many paints don't hang well with it. I'd use CPES or the primer for the paint I'd bought.

[Thorne]

Red lead is probably of more current value as a rot preventative for wood faying surfaces than it is as a primer, as CPES may give you the best primer for the $$ in many (but not all) applications.

On my fir dory skiff hull, I used CPES as a sealer/primer, then Rustoleum marine high-build primer and paint.

More info please -- is the white oak inside or outside the hull? Above or below the waterline? Oak will shrink and swell a lot, so you want primer and paint that can handle that much movement, not something designed to make 'glass hulls look sexy...

[Ian McColgin]

Why do people think red lead fights rot. It's heavy, low toxicity and lies on the surface. Where it forms a barrior, it might help keep rot from happening just as any paint would, but no more.

There's lots of products that actually fight wood rot. Some, like old time Cuprinol, also fight human life if you're living in a small boat. CPES has such great penetration that to my observation it's a comprehensive rot preventative but it needs to fully cure and be painted over before you live with it inside the boat.

[Thorne]

Well I'm no chemist, but many experienced builders and authors seem to prefer red lead -- so I take their advice. It may be that the coating/sealing/priming qualities of red lead are more effective than the toxic qualities in preventing rot, but sure seems like the combination is a good one for preserving wooden boats!

In the WB publication _Painting & Varnishing_ Ch. 5, Ed McClave's article on "Painting for Longevity" strongly recommends using red lead for faying surfaces, driving screws, and below-waterline priming. Well worth a read.

"For any applications below the waterline, red lead primer is my favorite sealant. Red lead is heavy-bodied, with a high percentage of pigment, so a single coat provides a good moisture barrier...Red lead seems to stick better and last longer than other, more glossy paints. It dries fast, too, an important factor when joints must be cut, painted and assembled without delay. And because red lead contains only a moderate amount of hardening oil, it doesn't tend to crack and peel as easily as, say, porch and deck enamel."

[Bob Smalser]

Why do people think red lead fights rot. It's heavy, low toxicity and lies on the surface.

Some, like old time Cuprinol, also fight human life if you're living in a small boat.

CPES has such great penetration that to my observation it's a comprehensive rot preventative but it needs to fully cure and be painted over before you live with it inside the boat.

Lead, copper or zinc in moderate to high concentrations poison the food required by mold and fungus. One leg of the moisture-temperature-food triad of rot. All are effective.

Red lead primer is applied thin like copper napthanate and soaks into the wood just as deep. Probably the only real difference between the two is that red lead is easier to paint over.

If you are concerned about lead as a poison, whether lead or copper is more damaging to the environment is moot. They both are. But ablative paints (copper bottom paints) are especially damaging because the poison flakes off into the ecosystem by design.

CPES is a sealer that attacks the moisture leg of the triad. Given its massively-high VOC's and their effect on the atmosphere, whether it or red lead is more harmful is also probably moot.

[ri_craig]

The surfaces I am looking to prime are below the waterline. I am building a small sail boat and want to prime all surfaces of the keel, frames, etc. before installing. My concern is firstly my health in using the red lead but also environmental; although I do agree with Bob on that bottom paints are not very good either.. I was hoping in for this application not to have to use the red lead. Am I just worrying about nothing?

[Bob Cleek]

Yes, to all of the above. For my money, it's pretty much a wash. Lead based paint is harmless if you avoid eating it, or breathing the sanding dust. Even that is cumulative, so you can get away with ingesting a bit of it without loosing too many barin, xxx, brani, xxx, BRAIN cells. CPES has a lot of volitile fumes, but a fan and an open window will solve that problem neatly. All of this stuff comes out of the earth. It isn't like we're importing elements from outer space. Remember, it's all dust and to dust it all will return... an appropriate thought for today, Ash Wednesday, come to think of it.

[Thorne]

If you don't have a good respirator with fresh organic vapor carts, and won't be working with epoxy otherwise, red lead might be preferable to CPES as you'd save the $$ for the respirator.

I'm a fan of CPES, but it REALLY needs to be used outdoors on a windy day, even with a respirator. Smith & Co. here in Richmond CA make both cold-weather and warm-weather CPES products, worth checking out if you go that route -

http://www.smithandcompany.org/images/potlife.jpg
http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/index.html

[ri_craig]

So what you guys are telling me I need to choose between the two evils? Bummer. I was hoping there was a less toxic alternitive.

[Thorne]

Sure! Let the boat rot = ***very organic***...

;0 )

Get the WB book _Painting & Varnishing_ and read Ch. 5, Ed McClave's article on "Painting for Longevity". He addresses exactly your issue in this thread, and doesn't **insist** on red lead.

You can use regular paint or marine primer to coat wood, of course. It is just a matter of how long you want the boat to be functional, how much scraping and repainting you are willing to do after a few years, and how little you may care about curses from subsequent owners or the bad rep that wooden boats get when they rot, fall apart and/or sink.

http://www.woodenboatbooks.com/WBB/Repair___Refinishing_files/0937822337.jpg (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=325%2D101)

[dstreck]

I know at least one shop (IYRS in Newport) that has switched to using red oxide metal primer instead of red lead. No idea how well it stacks up versus RL for rot prevention, but it does have a lot of body and dries fast. They put a lot of boats in the water, and I guess its working for them so far.

[dstreck]

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/davestreck/DSC00724.jpg

IYRS Herreshoff 12 1/2 with Z-Spar White undercoat AWL, red oxide metal primer below.

[Canoeyawl]

Red Oxide primer is primarily Iron and Zinc oxides
I wonder what this looks like on the galvanic chart with the odd copper or bronze piece thrown in?
I suspect it is not really suitable for constant immersion in seawater.
Lead is compatible with bronze fastenings/fittings etc.

[dstreck]

Red Oxide primer is primarily Iron and Zinc oxides
I wonder what this looks like on the galvanic chart with the odd copper or bronze piece thrown in?
I suspect it is not really suitable for constant immersion in seawater.
Lead is compatible with bronze fastenings/fittings etc.

Good point. Personally, I'll stick with red lead until we can't buy it anymore. If it wasn't $95 per gallon, I'd buy a dozen or so cans and stockpile 'em againt that very possibility.

[Dale Genther]

I'm a great fan of red lead. I use it all the time. I our retirement business, which it working of wood boats, I can't count the number of time I've seen rot stopped from migrating from one piece of wood to another by that thick line of red lead that some thoughtful person slapped on many years ago. Beside, very few things loook more "wooden boaty" than the color of red lead.

[Bob Smalser]

Oh, I suspect you'll always be able to get red lead. If the current producers - Kirby's and Sandusky Paint - ever stop making it you can always make your own. Works like a charm.

Red Lead Primer

Empty 1-gallon paint can
50-50 Boiled Linseed Oil -Turpentine mixture
1 cup Japan Drier
3lbs Lead Tetraoxide Powder
Mix cold and stir well before use

Lead Tetraoxide costs around 6 dollars a pound at vendors of fireworks components:

Idaho: http://www.firefox-fx.com/

[dstreck]

Oh, I suspect you'll always be able to get red lead. If the current producers - Kirby's and Sandusky Paint - ever stop making it you can always make your own. Works like a charm.


Bob,

Thats the best damn post I've ever read. Gonna print that out, laminate it and nail it to the wall if my shop. Thanks!

One question: does the homebrew version still have that sweet orange color?

[Bob Smalser]

One question: does the homebrew version still have that sweet orange color?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84843552.jpg

[Bob Triggs]

Bob, why didnt you paint the red lead over the lead insert as well?

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, why didnt you paint the red lead over the lead insert as well?

I painted the board before pouring the weight in order to coat all the mortise surfaces liable to get wet from leakage to deter rot. Including all the lifting hardware mortises and holes.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84771686.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84843568.jpg

Lead is also a great lubricant. Applying red lead to screw holes using a pipe cleaner will make a big difference one day in removing those screws.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7534648/100694055.jpg

Use common sense in regards to health risks. Paint or pour outdoors with your back to a breeze and don't drink the stuff.

[soba]

Me I still use red lead...make my own using lead from a pottery supply shop.

But the oxide paints are interesting. I'm not sure there *is* galvanic action with iron oxide and zinc oxide. After all, they are already corroded (such as it is) as well as being mostly bound up in what I presume is a harder paint body. Do you think they are used for build instead of rot prevention? Is ferric oxide as toxic to biologicals as lead? I think not!

Galvanically, I'd bet they are safe for your boat, copper or no copper. But I'd like to know what their rot prevention characteristics are...

[Bob Smalser]

Me I still use red lead...make my own using lead from a pottery supply shop.



Thanks for another source for lead tetraoxide:

Lead Oxide, Red Pb3O4
A flux producing a smooth glossy glaze.

http://www.seattlepotterysupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=RMDL

[Plover]

Hi Bob Smalser,
You are a wealth of information! The recipe for the red lead is certainly going to be used by me as I need quite a bit of the stuff for my own work. Do you by some chance have a recipe for white lead paste? Reason is I am going to be recanvasing my decks and cabin top. I don't really have short arms and deep pockets. But, I do have a desire to save as much as I can in this project. Thanks in advance.
Paul

[Dan McCosh]

Red Oxide primer is primarily Iron and Zinc oxides
I wonder what this looks like on the galvanic chart with the odd copper or bronze piece thrown in?
I suspect it is not really suitable for constant immersion in seawater.
Lead is compatible with bronze fastenings/fittings etc.

Zinc primers are used because of their galvanic affinity for iron and steel. The effect is much like using a sacrificial zinc--the coating is attempting to transfer itself to the steel. This action is meaningless when used on wood, but would have no detrimental effect on surrounding metals, might even act as a mild deterrent to corrosion. Lead is simply neutral.

[Canoeyawl]

My concern is exactly that, many boats do not need or want zinc (or iron) added. I imagine an entire bottom coated with this mix might lead to problems in a bronze fastened boat. I have seen much wood destroyed from too much zinc. (search delignification)
Because it was suggested as a primer one may want to use caution with copper bottom paints.

[Draketail]

The recipe posted by Bob Smalser has been very helpful. I was able to find all the liquid ingredients local to Lexington, VA (5,000 people) and ordered the red lead from Firefox as listed above. My cost for the red lead primer came to right at $48/gallon.

The home made red lead has been used to prime the laminated white oak hoops for the 25' draketail launch I'm building.

Prices for the paint as follows:

Turpentine (1 gal) $19.76, 0.5gal needed $9.88
Boiled Linseed oil (1 gal) $16.64, 0.5gal needed $8.32
Red lead, 10 lbs, ordered $88.65 including shipping,
3lb needed $26.60
Japan drier (qt) $12.79, 8 0z needed $3.20

Total $47.99/gallon for red lead primer

Results below:

http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/2668/2979242580102980561S500x500Q85.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2979242580102980561XckNNo)

and:
http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/39881/2492317770102980561S500x500Q85.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2492317770102980561blEfZg)

[RGM]

I recently found out that Seattle Pottery is now a "lead free" business.

[Tom Jackson]

I know that Mystic Seaport's shipyard is also lead-free by design. The primer they use is, if I recall, a metal primer, gray in color, but I don't know its chemistry.

[Bob Cleek]

Oh, God! The eco-nazi's have even ruined Mystic Seaport now. I can just imagine the board of directors with their knickers all in knots trying to decide whether to be "historically correct" or "politically correct." Are they going to be de-acquisitioning all the boats they have with lead keels? Are they going to depleted uranium ballast painted to look just like lead? It sounds about as crazy as the Navy's mandate that all asbestos be removed from the ships they donate for historic displays, while they send the rest off to Bangladesh to be cut up by barefooted peasants wearing little more in safety gear than a turban and a loincloth. Where will it all end? Inquiring minds want to know! LOL

[Songololo]

As an alternative to read lead (cannot officially buy it nor lead tetroxide in Switzerland since 2005) for priming screw holes , can the following be used:

- alkyd resin based copper bottom paint
- epoxy resin based zinc paint for metal
- poly resin based zinc phosphate + aluminium silicate primer for metals
- alkyd resin based titanium dioxide + zinc phosphate primer for metals
- acrylic based titanium dioxide + zinc phosphate primer for metals

Any others?

If these are not suitable, I am considering using left over Le Tonkinois (natural oil based varnish). This is for bronze screws mounting bronze hardware on mahogany above/below the waterline.

[62816inBerlin]

Oh, God! The eco-nazi's have even ruined Mystic Seaport now. I can just imagine the board of directors with their knickers all in knots trying to decide whether to be "historically correct" or "politically correct." Are they going to be de-acquisitioning all the boats they have with lead keels? Are they going to depleted uranium ballast painted to look just like lead? It sounds about as crazy as the Navy's mandate that all asbestos be removed from the ships they donate for historic displays, while they send the rest off to Bangladesh to be cut up by barefooted peasants wearing little more in safety gear than a turban and a loincloth. Where will it all end? Inquiring minds want to know! LOL

I object to the "eco nazi" label! :mad:
There is a distinct difference between lead bits (or bigger pieces) such as keel ballast and paints/primers. The lead hardware is meant to stay on the boat and can be disposed of in bulk and recycled when the vessel is finally scrapped. Paints and primers have a habit of having to be periodically renewed. I don't know anybody who can guarantee that 100% of their sanding dust / paint flakes get properly disposed of without any getting into the soil or water. So if we know less toxic materials - why not use them? Leaded gasoline has been banned for a good reason after all - as somebody higher up the thread pointed out, lead is CUMULATIVE, and every microgram your children ingest will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

I agree with you about the (not only the Navy's) hypocritical attitudes to disposal/scrapping. We are faced with a monstrous load of F--- S--t, much of which is still afloat but will have to be disposed of some day. What about the millions of GRP tubs, both recreational and commercial?

Perhaps you live in the USA or Canada where there are lots of empty spaces to pollute, but we in Europe are already pretty cramped (see Naples Garbage Problem http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/08/MNS9UAO8U.DTL&feed=rss.news)

Using toxic materials just for a hobby just does not make sense if there are alternatives.

Gernot

[dskira]

Bob Cleek I enjoyed your post. You are so right.

[Don Z.]

Um... at the risk of bilging this... isn't the Naples garbage problem a lot more about corruption than limited spaces?

[Bob Cleek]

Our world is full of dangers. Prudence in our handling and management of dangerous substances is the answer, not hundreds of crazy laws that limit progress and the overall quality of life. Lead oxide in paint can be toxic, yet we safely used lead based paints for hundreds of years. I wouldn't paint a baby's rattle with it, since the kid is maybe going to chew on the rattle. My kid isn't going to chew on my boat's keel.

We are now facing proposed regulations that will require every boat owner to obtain a permit (at significant cost) for "overboard discharges." What are "overboard discharges?" They have already covered head discharges. Now it's sink "grey water" and engine cooling water and bilge pumps. Now, a tanker pumping its ballast water overboard into an estuary can cause problems. (e.g. zebra mussels!) A twenty foot sailboat will have to obtain the same permit if this crazy law is passed. THIS is the kind of crap we are having to put up with... while industry continues to dump pollutants wholesale because they can afford the fines and the lobbyists to craft loopholes for them.

People who are forever posting questions about how to build boats out of things that are safe to eat should really consider another hobby. There is more poison in the cleaning products underneath the average American kitchen sink than in the average wooden boat... by a long shot. People need to get real. We've had enough of well meaning but ignorant ecologically and politically correct nannys.

[Antonio Majer]

at the risk of bilging this, I must answer Don: yes it’s so. And many regions of North Italy have taken advantage from that corruption to get rid of their own garbage and poisons (it’s well documentated in an Italian film – Gomorra – now in competition at the Cannes film festival - I hope it will win although I’m a fun of Wim Wenders :)…). Corruption in Naples and cynicism in North Italy apart, garbage draining is a true problem in Europe, as Gernot wrote. Many countries have found a solution in the massive use of incinerators, which – according to some people - may be cancerogenic though. The fact is there is no more room, simply no room. For many Americans or Canadians it may be difficult to understand, but think of this:

Italian density 197 people / km²
USA density 31 people / km²
Canada 3 (!) people / km²

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(Obviously the histogram above may be a rough representation of garbage density too)

Apart of that, just to avoid the risk of bilging, I must say I have been reading for many years Bob Smalser’s posts with great pleasure, he is always so informative.

[Bob Cleek]

As Dirty Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." The above facts are a good illustration of the principle. Is the current "garbage crisis" in Naples the result of "too much garbage" or "too many people?" It's always easier to try to limit the amount of garbage than the number of people, no?

I would like to see corresponding statistics for the per capita production of solid waste for Italy, Canada and the US. No question, the US produces more garbage per capita than anybody. On the other hand, my guess is that Italians, by far, produce the least garbage of the three groups. Hence, the problem in Italy is more attributable to population density than to garbage produced.

This leaves one to wonder whether increasing the death rate due to pollutants in the environment wouldn't contribute more to the solution than to the problem.

(Just kidding... couldn't resist.)

[Antonio Majer]

maybe Italians produce less garbage pro capite then you, but much more by unit surface. Obviously you cannot limit the population density in a democracy, so you can only work on the reduction of garbage (i.e. on the style of living) and on the type of garbage - true red lead for instance is forbidden here.

[Bob Cleek]

I suppose it might be interesting to note that without the garbage dumps left by our forefathers, archaeologists would be hard put to tell us much about our past. LOL It's a problem everywhere. We just have too much crap and no place to throw it away. The better the quality of life, the more mess we seem to make!

[Songololo]

Let me try again ... no tomatoes this time please ;)

Here in Switzerland one has been unable to buy red lead paint (nor lead tetroxide) since 2005. It seems that it is also the case in Germany and Italy.

As an alternative to read lead for priming screw holes , how suitable would copper bottom paint or any other metal (zinc phosphate, aluminium, titanium oxide) containing primers/paints be?

If these are not suitable, I am considering using left over Le Tonkinois (natural oil based varnish). This is for bronze screws mounting bronze hardware on mahogany above/below the waterline.

[Bob Smalser]

As an alternative to read lead for priming screw holes , how suitable would copper bottom paint or any other metal (zinc phosphate, aluminium, titanium oxide) containing primers/paints be?



No biggie. Copper is a poison equal to lead and can work fine as a primer.

And for those concerned about letting poisons escape into the water, simply stop using ablative copper bottom paints. Use hard enamel instead, don your wet suit if necessary and scrub your boat's bottom once every two weeks. That'll stop worms too, if you keep up with it. And coppering a bottom is no kinder to the environment than copper bottom paints, either. The ions that do the actual killing come from both.

Otherwise if you keep up with the enamel paint atop your poison primers, they will do no harm to the environment. Avoid using them on rub rails, guards, stringers, caps, thwarts and any other parts designed to rub against something, however. If the boat is built properly, those parts are easily replaced when the time comes anyway.