Inboard Power for Small Sailboat

[pcford]

A client has a Garden gaff cutter. Very pretty boat. Unfortunately, it has a Hondo outboard hanging off the rear end. While the Honda is a good engine, certainly spoils the appearance of the boat.

I am not sure of the available room for an inboard, but I am sure it is small.

Does anyone have suggestions for inboard power in restricted areas? Over the years I have noted suggestions for hydraulic power. Any first hand experience?

Thanks in advance.

[JimConlin]

If the boat lives at a dock or on a trailer, and if the needed range is short, electric propulsion might be appealing.

[Bob Cleek]

If the boat is small, electric power is too heavy. IMO, the lack of an inboard engine on a small boat is a benefit, not a burden. How much space does one want to commit to hauling around a lump of iron, tanks and the rest? The best of all possible worlds for boats like this was once the Seagull, seemingly no longer made.

Consider whether the aesthetics of the outboard can be addressed short of filling the boat with an inboard. I have always been partial to the Spartan bronze motor mount, which permits all but a couple of small deck fittings to be stowed aboard.

http://spartanmarine.com/image/19.jpg

http://spartanmarine.com/catalog.html

Beyond that, as far as inboards go, I don't think anybody makes a small, slow turning, inboard anymore. The Stuart Turners, Kermath singles and doubles and the little "micro" Acadias are seemingly long gone. Time was I heard Universal took over the Kermath "Sea Pup" and "Sea Twin" and were marketing them as the "Atomic 1" and "Atomic 2." Don't know if they are still around. Fact is, these days, most sailboats are woefully overpowered because the market expectation is that every boat ought to be a motorsailer. Nobody waits for the tide to change anymore!

[gert]

If he would consider diesel, this is small and 144 lbs.

http://www.clouds.nl/downloads/DL-DV7_ME.pdf

about 6 K US though

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I haven't been in the market for one, but Yanmar used to make a very small single cylinder. about 7 hp I believe... and not much space is needed.

[ssor]

Air cooled Lister Petter engines are available.

[Jay Greer]

Indeed, Yanmar is again making very small diesels. However, the Bukh is even smaller. It is not yet approved for emissions in the US but, it is a very clean running and reliable engine.
I have been told that a private individual could purchase one without dealing with emissions standards.
Jay

[pcford]

Consider whether the aesthetics of the outboard can be addressed short of filling the boat with an inboard. I have always been partial to the Spartan bronze motor mount, which permits all but a couple of small deck fittings to be stowed aboard.



Thanks, Cleeksta....

Yes I thought about something like that....Spartan makes nice hardware.

However, I think the Honda outboard is too large to be muscling off the back of the transom.

Nonetheless, I will show the Spartan outboard bracket to the client.

[pcford]

The space under the cockpit is very limited. Eyeball guess of about 1 foot by 2 ft. Cockpit floor is slats not solid.

The boat does have quite a bit of inside ballast which could be replaced with power.

I was actually thinking about something like an hydraulic motor.
perhaps an engine could be placed in cabin. Smelliy, yes...perhaps no worse than some of my old shipmates.

[Bob Smalser]

I'd stick with Bob's bronze bracket and a Honda OB.

Your client will ruin a diesel running it either 20 minutes at a time or under insufficient load if the diesel has more power than needed for hull speed. It takes 45 minutes minimum under load to evaporate off the crankcase water that's the byproduct of combustion.

[pcford]

I'd stick with Bob's bronze bracket and a Honda OB.

Your client will ruin a diesel running it either 20 minutes at a time or under insufficient load if the diesel has more power than needed for hull speed. It takes 45 minutes minimum under load to evaporate off the crankcase water that's the byproduct of combustion.

Yes, it's a good idea....but

I think an engine would get more than 20 minutes work. To go up or down the Sound, one has to tack one way or the other...or if you are lucky, both ways.

I have sailed in engine-less boats....took an Oselver up to Port Townsend once.....perhaps the best boat trip of my life. But it certainly took time to get there.

The boat has an outside keel, twenty-some feet long with a bowsprit extending 6 more feet. Draws 3-4 feet? Definitely not a trailer boat.

[Bob Smalser]

Yes, it's a good idea....but

I think an engine would get more than 20 minutes work. To go up or down the Sound, one has to tack one way or the other...or if you are lucky, both ways.

I have sailed in engine-less boats....took an Oselver up to Port Townsend once.....perhaps the best boat trip of my life. But it certainly took time to get there.

The boat has an outside keel, twenty-some feet long with a bowsprit extending 6 more feet. Draws 3-4 feet? Definitely not a trailer boat.

As long as the owner knows the hows and whys and the motor is properly sized, no problem.

But sailboats are amazingly efficient in the water. We once crewed a Columbia 26 keel boat out of Tacoma that would easily buck the nasty tide rounding the Narrows Bridge pillars with a 7 1/2 hp 2-stroke Evinrude. A 15 or 20hp diesel may never reach proper operating temperature in your boat, and 130 degrees for too long will eventually blow head gaskets. On the Peterbilt a thermostat closes the shutters in front of the radiator. Monkeying with a boat's cooling system in a similar manner isn't as good an idea.

[pcford]

As long as the owner knows the hows and whys and the motor is properly sized, no problem.

But sailboats are amazingly efficient in the water. We once crewed a Columbia 26 keel boat out of Tacoma that would easily buck the nasty tide rounding the Narrows Bridge pillars with a 7 1/2 hp 2-stroke Evinrude. A 15 or 20hp diesel may never reach proper operating temperature in your boat, and 130 degrees for too long will eventually blow head gaskets. On the Peterbilt a thermostat closes the shutters in front of the radiator. Monkeying with a boat's cooling system in a similar manner isn't as good an idea.

The main problem is aesthetic. It is really a remarkably pretty boat. The outboard is just dog-butt ugly on her....It pushes the boat remarkably well. And starts in two pulls after sittting for months.

[Bob Smalser]

The main problem is aesthetic. It is really a remarkably pretty boat.

The guy I was crewing for was a Naval Architect who later designed and built a compartment complete with slide and transom door for the 7 1/2. The Columbia had sufficient room.

Sole or some other European outfit from either Spain of Finland makes a small inboard 2-stroke gasoline engine that would be more flexible in how its used besides cheaper and easier to install.

[C. Ross]

If the problem is aesthetics, maybe a nice rebuilt vintage outboard might suit her better?

[Jay Greer]

The guy I was crewing for was a Naval Architect who later designed and built a compartment complete with slide and transom door for the 7 1/2. The Columbia had sufficient room.

Sole or some other European outfit from either Spain of Finland makes a small inboard 2-stroke gasoline engine that would be more flexible in how its used besides cheaper and easier to install.
The tiny 7hp Vire engine is made in Finland. I installed one in a 23ft Spitzgadder some ten years ago. It still runs well and the owner is very happy with it. I would recommend only one thing, if you plan to use this engine. Install a closed heat exchanging system for cooling.
This eliminates the need for draining and flushing the block after use.
Jay

[StevenBauer]

Any chance to put the outboard in a well?

Or if you can wait a couple of years 'til I go electric you could have my old ('93) Vire 12:

click image to play
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/Ostkust/th_MVI_0837.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/Ostkust/?action=view&current=MVI_0837.flv)


:)

Steven

[Jay Greer]

Any chance to put the outboard in a well?

Or if you can wait a couple of years 'til I go electric you could have my old ('93) Vire 12:

click image to play
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/Ostkust/th_MVI_0837.jpg (http://s146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/Ostkust/?action=view&current=MVI_0837.flv)


:)

Steven
I clicked the image and got a bonus. What a nice place to live and sail!
Jay

[pcford]

Has anyone ever seen a hydraulic motor being used?

Engine wherever it can be jammed in > hydraulic pump > hoses > hydraulic motor.

I saw this set-up in a Canadian fishing boat for use as a get home engine.....genset had a pump on it hoses to motor near shaft log. Chain drive to shaft.

But have never seen it used as main propulsion in a small boat. Though I have heard it proposed.

[mike hanyi]

some time ago ...like 20 years ago I totally rebuilt our vire 7.
it is quite light, 2 stroke, easy to self maintain if you are half familliar with outboards. as for the corrosion problem it is due to the fact that there is NO ZINC in the system, fix this she is plenty fine for brakish waters. these motors are no longer made but plenty of help with aftermarket and oem parts-she has so many standard parts that you only need to go to the local car and bearing shops to get most of the parts. the motor is a love hate relationship.

I wrote a short article about the ferrymann, which weighs the same amount as the vire, is a diesel, and available new, raw water cooled.

this is the way I would go on a clients boat.

[pcford]

Video of small farymann

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PH1Muhv1x-0&feature=related

Smoke makes me want to go wash my clothes. Anybody know what model this is?

[dreyer]

An interesting solution would be the South Coast outboard motor well.

Under the cockpit seating is a outboard well with a large bronze fitting that is dogged in place & sealed via a rubber gasket. It has a hardwood block on the wet side to keep the hulls lines. You unscrew the dogging bracket, remove the well and drop in your outboard. Most people use 2-6hp longshaft outboards in either a modern configuration (mercury do a 5hp with a small alternator which is a nice feature) or a nice restored period two stroke outboard for true authenticity.

I have one in my Rhodes 33 that I am keen to keep. The well will need re-building and I know my shipwright is keen to remove it but I do really like the idea asthetically.

I guess it all depends on frame spacing & whats going on in your stern but it is a cool & highly efficient solution.

It would be difficult to find one but they are around. Many of the Kettenburg PC class have had them removed after being restored and im sure one could be tracked down if you got hold of someone in San Diego where the PC fleet is based.

Here are a couple of rough photos of the setup on two rhodes 33s.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8933/6452981602060bgzg9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5299/img2280us7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yes, pigeons had been nesting in my cockpit when I found Therapy. Actually when I found her it looked like a cat had slaughtered a family of pigeons up there. Feathers and bones everywhere!

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1778/p1010056de8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[MarkC]

Bukh (DB7 ME) is the newest, smallest buhk at 7hp - it is a german made farymann marinised by farymann (acording to their response to my emailed question).

You would have to ask bukh - or these people

Farymann America
Grey Street 1000
IL 60202 Evanston
Fon: +1 847 328 1890

[C. Ross]

Video of small farymann

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PH1Muhv1x-0&feature=related

Smoke makes me want to go wash my clothes. Anybody know what model this is?

The "Hookah".

Holy smokes, that is one dirty engine.

[michigangeorge]

:(Has anyone ever seen a hydraulic motor being used?

Engine wherever it can be jammed in > hydraulic pump > hoses > hydraulic motor.

I saw this set-up in a Canadian fishing boat for use as a get home engine.....genset had a pump on it hoses to motor near shaft log. Chain drive to shaft.

But have never seen it used as main propulsion in a small boat. Though I have heard it proposed.

Many older FG racing sailboats had various types of hydraulic drive systems. The SCAMPI (30') had the engine up under the v-berth in the bow so she would maintain a bow down attitude for measurement purposes.
Every one of these boats I was aboard had a hydraulic hose let go at one time or another with the resulting mess of hydraulic oil being sprayed all over under high pressure.
When used as get home power on commercial vessels or complicated trawler yachts it becomes just another complicated system which (hopefully) recieves proper ongoing, everyday, maintainance by trained professionals. Much more thorough than we like to do with small sailboats.
Raise the cockpit sole or otherwise provide the space for the small directdrive inboard and keep it simple.

[anniebskipper]

A client has a Garden gaff cutter. Very pretty boat. Unfortunately, it has a Hondo outboard hanging off the rear end. While the Honda is a good engine, certainly spoils the appearance of the boat.

Would that "Garden Gaff Cutter" be a Golant Gaffer by chance? If so it was designed to take the Yanmar 1GM10. Some GG s have been built using OBs. How about a picture of the Garden Gaff Cutter?

[GGaffer]

The farymann engine is used in the small fischer panda generator sets. The engines as a boat power plant are available from PRP in New Jersey. If memory serves me correctly the smallest engine which is single deveops about 9hp. They area great engine simple to service and very reliable.

Mark Corke

[donald branscom]

I used a 6HP Honda engine with 2:1 gear reduction and wet clutch built in.

See SEARCH, Honda Inboard.
Also: http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...=honda+inboard

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...=honda+inboard

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...=honda+inboard

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...=honda+inboard

[esingleman]

[quote=Bob Cleek;1818716] one want to commit to hauling around a lump of iron, tanks and the rest? The best of all possible worlds for boats like this was once the Seagull.

I happen to have one I could be talked out of.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Has anyone ever seen a hydraulic motor being used?

Engine wherever it can be jammed in > hydraulic pump > hoses > hydraulic motor.

I saw this set-up in a Canadian fishing boat for use as a get home engine.....genset had a pump on it hoses to motor near shaft log. Chain drive to shaft.

But have never seen it used as main propulsion in a small boat. Though I have heard it proposed.

ACB has mentioned this setup as being in common use on the Norfolk Broads - where there are large hire fleets - I formed the impression that it had a reputation for toughness and reliability.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Indeed - also common in the Uk Old Gaffers fleet, as many of our boats were built engineless.

[Stephen]

I have delivered a client's boat (William Garden 'Seal' design) that has an older Farymann matched to a Volvo hydraulic drive unit.
Pushes the boat along just fine. There is a loud whining noise produced by the hydraulics - but I could live with it. You can set your engine rpm and then run the hydraulic motor from full forward to full reverse with no worries.
Hoses and connections are pricey. There is a fair size hydraulic fluid header tank needed for the system that you would have to find a home for too.
Volvo has been making these hydraulic units for quite some time now. I think this system was put in his boat in the 70's.
Hydraulics are being used in the UK on some pilot cutters and fishing smacks - often with one diesel engine powering two hydraulic motors - each running a shaft out each quarter that drives a max-prop. These boats are capable of spinning within their own length! Quite incredible for a deep draft vessel of 20 to 30 tons with a deep forefoot.
There's a Washington outfit - I think it's called Spencer Fluid Power in Kent that has been dealing hydraulics for a long time. I saw one of there systems on a 50' Sparkman & Stephens that looked put together real skookum and the owner was very pleased with it.

[pcford]

Thanks guys.

By the way, the boat to which I am referring is the Diane.....a Garden roughly 20ft between perps gaff cutter. 6 ft bowsprit. Built in the early 70s from the look of the techniques.

[pcford]

Is this the same boat, which was for sale on the cwb`s website last winter, built by a blind, one-armed boatbuilder ? True story?
Thanks...

Yes. Supposedly the guy was a friend of Gardens. In general, it's a good job though some products were used in an over enthusiastic manner. For example Weldwood was used where bedding would have been more appropriate.