Mounting Hardware On Wooden Spars

[Roaminaway]

I am in the process of re-rigging my 1958 Lapworth 36. Having had both of my mast winches rip out of the mast in the past 6 months, I am looking for some advice about mounting hardware.

The spars are box constructed spruce. Neither of the winches was bedded in any way. Both were attached with #12 screws. The side walls of the mast seem to be 1".

After the repairs, what will be the most reliable way to affix hardware?

Rick

[Bob Cleek]

Having BOTH your halyard winches "rip out" of the spar indicates something very wrong is going on. WHY did they "rip out?" The load properly would be in shear. Just how tight are you cranking them up? Is the spar rotten? Were the fastenings the wrong size for the holes?

The most reliable way to fasten winches to the mast (if you MUST) is with properly sized screws. While an inch may be sufficient, the better practice is to install a proper spacing block in the hollow section to take longer screws. This is also standard practice at the spreader attachments and/or hounds. Bedding is good. You must pay particular attention to keeping a hollow spar watertight. Moisture running through fastening holes into the interior of a hollow spruce spar (particularly one without a proper drain hole at the bottom) is certain to cause rot which, because it is hidden inside, is often not discovered until a catastrophic rigging failure reveals the problem!

[Dan McCosh]

Not knowing either the mast, loads or winch types, I am guessing. Ours are mounted on shaped pads to transmit load more evenly. Fastenings are minimum #14 screws, or some #16. Obviously bedded, as not doing so would invite rot under the winch. The side walls of the mast are about 2 1/12", and the screws are long enough to penetrate the full depth. Mast-mounted winches tend to take very heavy loads, and needed to be mounted securely. (The main halyard, for example, is duplicating the load on the main sheet while sailing close-hauled. Spinnaker is similar while reaching, etc.)

[John Boone]

Roaminaway,

I would tend to agree with Bob. Can you post any pictures of the mast areas where the winches were mounted? I would suspect water intrusion under the unbedded winches had caused some damage around the fasteners but that is pure speculation.

The winches and all hardware on Whampoa's mast were bedded with Dolphinite. When I pulled all of the hardware off two years ago to refinish the mast, the varnish under the bedding looked as fresh as the day it was layed down. All fastener holes were in great condition.

The winch bases for the two main winches (Barlow 36s) are fastened with 1 1/2 " #14 bronze screws and the spinnaker winch on the front of the mast is mounted with 1 1/2 # 12 bronze screws. My mast has internal blocking where winches, spreaders and cleats are mounted.

All of the fittings and winches were rebedded using Dolphinite when I put it all back together. I am sure of the screw sizes as I recorded all that kind of detail when I worked on the mast last time.

I would think you will get a similar recommendation from most folks here but there are others here that do it for a living so let's see what they have to say.

Good luck with your project.

Regards, John

[JimConlin]

When securing highly loaded hardware to a soft wood with screws, a cast epoxy annulus can transfer the loads more reliably. For more, see the Gougeon Bros. book (chapter 14) .

[Roaminaway]

The first winch to let go was cable. The screws mounting it were 2 1/2" and 3" long. That is there were only 1 or 2 turns of threads in the wood. The holes for that winch have some kind of goo in them. It is pretty hard and smooth, rather than marked with the expected thread pattern.

The second winch, a rope winch, has torn fibres in the holes. The wood is a little soft for around 1/8" around each hole, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of rot. Also, all but one of the screws only had 5/8" penetration into the mast.

For both incidents, the winches were very heavily loaded. I should have lubed that bronze sail track.

I am in the process of running some of my lines aft to the cockpit, so the really high loads shouldn't happen at the mast again, but you never know.

I was thinking that adding a pad would be a good idea, and bedding of course as well as beefier fasteners.

So, some mistakes were made in installing the winches. My guess is that they had been on there for 20 to 30 years, painted around a few times. It would have been nice if they had held on until I removed them on purpose.

Thanks for the advice.

Rick

[Jay Greer]

If your masts were built by us, Aubry and I put doublers inside the mast in the area that your winches and other hardware are located. There is little bending load in that area but still, there is no need to end up sawing the mast in half with screw holes. Therefor, I would recommend you either add an out side elongated pad or lead the halyards aft through cheek blocks at the base. Todays spectra fibers allow you to eliminate that wire winch, if you wish.
Jay

[Roaminaway]

It may well have doublers in it, I haven't probed too deeply yet. I'm pretty sure the Vancouver yard would have followed the Chapman yard's example.

The halyards are going to be lead aft, but I want to have a winch on the mast for all of the 'in case' stuff. I was really looking to ensure that as I re-do the rigging that I get it right.

The cable winch is pretty cool, but practicality wins out; it is in the pile going to the maritime museum's garage sale next weekend. I'm thinking about turning some UHMW sheaves to accept rope and replace the bronze ones in the mast truck.

Another question Jay, how difficult would it be to run wire up the inside of the mast? I may only want to go as high as the spreaders for a steaming light and to move my VHF antenna up where it can see better.

Rick

[Electra]

On my L-36 (Chapman hull No. 37 built in 1959) the mast is fully blocked at the spreaders, cabin roof, and base. Evidently there is a chamfer in the blocking at each location for the wires to run through the mast and to drain water. Electrical wires for the spreader lights were fasten internally (wrapped around a screw) just before exiting out the mast. As an idea, you may be able to run wires from just above the cabin roof or above the winches to the just below the spreader and then exit from the mast. Not perfect, but maybe a reasonable alternative. Best regards, Roger

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Forget the screws. Through-bolt the winches. If you locate them properly, the bolts will do both winches at once.

And of course, packing and bedding etc as above.

Mike

[Jay Greer]

I have drilled masts up from the butt end, starting with a well sighted brace and auger that is guided by a "preacher". Once the hole is well started, I follow up with a barefoot power auger on welded extension rod. The lack of lead screw on the bare foot auger keeps it from wandering.
Delrin is my material of choice for making sheaves. I use an oilite cintered bronze bearing insert.
Jay

[Bob Cleek]

My memory may be going, but I have a vague recollection that the Herreshoff Mfg. Co. used to mount winches on their masts of this size and up using bronze plates clamped to the spar with tie bolts... not screwed into the wood.

BTW, if you pulled a winch off your mast because you "should have lubed that bronze sail track," I suppose you've learned by now that a "bigger hammer" isn't always the best solution. Don't beat yourself up too much, though. Obviously, from what you have told us, there is something defective in the fastening arrangement.

[Roaminaway]

My logic, at the time I pulled the first winch off the mast, was that I didn't want to get any lube on the paint. I was thinking that I would just repaint the mast and I didn't want to compromise the paint bond near the track. The more I have thought about it, the more it makes sense to do an in depth refinish of the mast.

I had thought of through bolting as well as bolting on a bronze plate and mounting the winch to that. Today, I'm thinking only one mast winch. Tomorrow, who knows?

A local rig shop bored out a wooden mast for wire. It sounds like they used a hole saw welded to a 20' pipe. I can see all sorts of problems with that approach.

That is one problem I will wait to solve until I get the mast pulled and have a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

[redbopeep]

We just removed the hardware from our spars in prep for refinishing all the spars. All winches were on pads and thru-bolted on masts and main boom. Even the pad-eyes on the main boom were on bronze plates (example, two pad-eyes on one long bronze plate) and thru-bolted. Seems like the way to do it.