Dory Skeg? "To skeg or not to skeg..."

[Bob Triggs]

I have spent a lot of time over the past few years studying traditional dory types and designs. Of course this has meant reading John Gardener's work in-depth, along with some few others, and chasing down internet links, stories, blogs, topics, seeking photos and drawings, and haunting libraries. (I have what appears to be a version of the Fred Dion Dory, an old beater that I have been totally restoring on a nip-and-tuck basis for too long.)

In the older traditional designs, and in historic pictures, or upon personal inspection- I do not see skegs being used on row and sail dories. And this is also true of the Banks Dories which were stacked in tiers on the decks of the Schooners between uses. I think that a skeg would have made the Banks Dory hard to stack too.

But on many of the modern Dories, (especially on motor powered boats), and even on the rockered-bottom ones that are popular remakes or take-off designs of the traditional row and sail dories, I see that many of them have skegs. Presumably this deals with tracking issues. In the older boats a rudder or steering oar would have taken care of that well enough. Maybe a centerboard too, especially in the later recreational dory sail racing fleets. ( as an aside here; On my own dory I have opted for a rudder as I will be mostly single handing her. I have not yet decided hard on either a tiller or a steering yolk with lines though. I thought I could try them both and decide after a season, modifying as needed. Maybe I will set it up for both methods with a simple removeable tiller handle.)

The dory is a beach boat, at least the Swampscott Dory is. Designed for carrying heavy loads in often steep weather and seas, and to be beached from either end through the surf. The smooth rockered bottom of the dory slides off of a wave and rises to the next one, in any direction, with no serious interference or resistence below the waterline. I think that this is a significant aspect of the dory's long history as such a seaworthy craft.

With a skeg one may gain an advantage for tracking straight while rowing, or holding in a beam wind etc. But I think that something more important is lost with this skeg addition- the dory's ability to freely slide off of a wave unhindered in any direction. I think that this could be an important safety factor in some combined seas and winds. It would certainly effect maneuverability, especially in a current. And of course the skeg would interfere with beaching the boat stern-first off of the surf onto a hard beach.

In many of the older working (beach) dories they would row from the forward (thwart) position to allow the boat to "vane" off of the wind or current, or off of the rower's power, to remain on a straight track. Being able to readily beach the boat at either end, from any rowing position, was an important operational feature as well.

So is the gain of some better straight tracking in these boats, by virtue of using an added skeg, worth the loss of the traditional features of not having a skeg?

I am hoping that those here who are more versed in these boats will be willing to share their personal experiences.

[Thad]

I built one Swampscott, without a skeg, I thought it rowed beautifully, tracked fine, turned beautifully, but my client thought it didn't track and wanted a skeg and then more skeg. Rowing problem. One of the results of a skeg is to speed up drift (if you're fishing for example), not allowing sideways drift.

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

Skeg.

Save the bottom paint. You will eventually drag the sucker across rocks, sand, concrete, hot-top, the bumper of a truck, over a rail, on a reef, across splintery docks and (likely) over someone's foot.

Without meaning to injure your feelings, I somehow doubt you're planning to stack multiple dories on board a schooner, and then climb in one and hand-line halibut, in the winter, in 15 ft. seas. Like the rest of us, it's a fun project that will mostly live in the garage and get dragged across parking lots etc.

If you want to pay homage to "ye olde tyme fisher-folk", then do what they would do, and build the most practical boat from materials at hand, and don't be afraid to add on/grind off bits as opportunity and necessity dictate.

Skeg.

[Phil Dory]

In the book 'A Speck On The Sea', there is mention of this property of keel-less and almost rocker-less open dories to slide down the face of a wave, and apparently an important reason why some of the first boats to be rowed successfully across the Atlantic were Banks dories. I don't think most of us will ever encounter such conditions and get to test this idea.

[Thorne]

Phil -

You'll want to check your facts carefully -- can you confirm that they rowed Banks dories across the Atlantic? As far as I know, Blackburn and the others rowed modified Swampscott-style boats across the Atlantic. Here's an old photo of the gentleman himself -
http://www.sandybay.org/images/oldphotos/saildory.jpg

I'll admit that the constant almost-worship of the Banks dory gets on my nerves a bit. They were a specific design for a specific purpose, which they filled rather well -- but certainly not the ultimate boat for the average rower. I've owned one and it was fun but not particularly efficient, and cranky as hell unless you had 300lbs of wet sand bags on the floorboards (that amount of cod being unavailable).

I'm not immune to this sort of thing - VW vans fall into the same category of "so ugly they're cute" and have a huge fan base including myself. But I keep seeing beginners here and on other boating forums (and in real life) being unduly influenced by the rep of the Banks dory - they build one and then find it hard to row and difficult to sail. The Banks dory is great for being cheap to build, easy to stack, and hauling heavy loads of fish in offshore conditions. But for the use of the average modern boater, there are other traditional designs better suited to most of our needs.

Somewhere on this wonderful forum I think I've seen photos from the UK museum that has the boat George Harpo and Frank Samuelson rowed across -- anyone know the link? Can't find it after 20 minutes of googling...

Back to the topic -- the 1890 plans I ordered from Mystic for the Chamberlain dory skiff show a skeg. I and others were rowing yesterday in strong winds on the Noyo River off the Ft. Bragg coast near Mendocino, and everyone had a hell of a time keeping their boats under control and rowing straight. Those of us with centerboards lowered them for more directional stability, as our skegs weren't doing the job. I never go through the surf in my wooden boat, don't know anyone who (knowingly) will...

[Bob Triggs]

Thorne, try: "Harbo and Samuelson*".(*it is sometimes spelled: "Samuelsen") I believe that their boat "Fox" is still on display in New Jersey. It was named for their hoped for benefactor, Richard Fox, who later denied them support, he was the publisher of The Police Gazette. That boat was not a dory.

I would agree with your observations on the Banks Dory as being limited to a narrow range of function. I saw one that was built to an early set of lines, about 20 plus feet long and just huge in every way. It was utterly impractical as they soon found out. A few desperate attempts at modifying it, sailing it, adding several different sized and shaped skegs, an outboard motor well / box, centerboard and rudder etc- none of them made the boat workable as a pleasure craft. But it would have been great for loading up a camp full of kids and gear, or for freighting around gear for a big work boat, and rowing any water. And it would have been fine for pulling up lobster pots or for handlining cod,(if there were any left that is.)

Cullen: That was hilarious!

Phil: That is a great and inspiring book.

Thad: Thanks for your story on the skeg, and the "rowing problem".

[ChrisBen]

Hey Bob,
I owned a Swampscott dory for a few years, flat bottom, no rocker, no skeg. It rowed and tracked just fine, sailing was another matter. It had a sprit rig and just hated to tack with that bow sticking up in the air. Once I made a jib for it, it was a blast. I think a skeg would have helped a bit as well. Dories may be a beach boat but unless you have a gang of big guys to hump it across the beach, you're going to be launching from a trailer at a boat ramp. A skeg would help protect the bottom there as well.
Good luck and don't forget the pictures ;)

[Bob Triggs]

Hey Bob,
I owned a Swampscott dory for a few years, flat bottom, no rocker, no skeg. It rowed and tracked just fine, sailing was another matter. It had a sprit rig and just hated to tack with that bow sticking up in the air. Once I made a jib for it, it was a blast. I think a skeg would have helped a bit as well. Dories may be a beach boat but unless you have a gang of big guys to hump it across the beach, you're going to be launching from a trailer at a boat ramp. A skeg would help protect the bottom there as well.
Good luck and don't forget the pictures ;)

ChrisBen:

Thanks for your story, any pictures of that boat? Can you describe your sprit rig more fully- mast stays or unstayed? boom? boomless? how you rigged it best? Centerboard? steering system?

My thought for the local beaches is simply parking for day trips, picnics, camping and fishing etc. I will be using a trailer. Ian McC made some good suggestions to me about using rollers on the beaches. Gary Powell (Puget Sound tsca) has some nice descriptions of using them on his Swampscott Dory web site. Seems like a skeg may interfere with easily rolling the boat on the beach rollers.

[ChrisBen]

The only picture left is hanging at my brother's house in Tn. Maybe next time I go back I'll grab it, ( he doesn't even like to sail). Blasting along in 20 knts with the rail buried. Here's a typical sprit rigged dory from H.I. Chapelle's "American Small Sailing Craft".
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r133/loki59/dory.jpg
Generally loose footed, laced to the unstayed mast. Jib has a rope leech so no forestay, with centerboard. Steering was with a rudder though I kinda like your idea of a yoke with a removable tiller, more "eye candy" if your into that.

[Thorne]

Remember that many dories have enough rocker to make the skeg handy to keep the boat level when beaching.

Here's a pic of my Chamberlain dory skiff being sling-launched for the first time yesterday. Note the skeg is in line with the rockered bottom. Let's not say anything about the saggy CB, OK?

http://www.luckhardt.com/doryhoist1.jpg

[Phil Dory]

I did double check re: Banks vs Swampscott dories. On p. 112ff of ' A Speck On The Sea', it mentions that Blackburn's first unintended row, which made him so famous, was in a Banks dory. Admittedly, it was not all the way across the Atlantic. He lost his fingers to frostbite and his shipmate died of exposure, but the boat's seaworthiness allowed him to survive. Subsequently, Blackburn sailed a variety of somewhat larger boats based on the 'Gloucester sloop boat' design. His last attempt to sail across the Atlantic was in a Swampscott dory, the 'America', but it was too tender and he had to give up after two capsizes.

On p. 247, you'll also find a discussion of Ridgway and Blyth's famous 1966 row across the Atlantic in an "old-fashioned" Banks dory, with an added deck and higher freeboard. The book then states: "...the old hands [on Cape Cod] prevented the installation of a keel. They said the secret of the success of a dory was that with its flat bottom it could slide down a wave front, rather than tripping over a keel as it went."

It seems that the keel-less Banks dory is a very seaworthy design, and that it was used in some of the most famous rowing exploits in the Atlantic.

[Thorne]

Right. But what was mentioned was Blackburn's Atlantic row -- which does not seem to be a Banks dory.

Ridgway and Blyth's boat sure doesn't look like a Banks dory to me! Remember that the press (and your reference books, apparently) can be far less than exact in these matters.

I'd say its a Swampscott hull shape, highly modified and decked, but far from the slab-sided Banks dory of cod-fishing fame.
http://www.capecodtoday.com/images/06-News/Ridgeway1000.jpg

The first Atlantic crossing under oar was by George Harpo and Frank Samuelson, but I'm not sure of the type of boat -- the press at the time called it a "rowboat"...

[Phil Dory]

Blackburn's first row, from being lost at sea, was in a Banks dory; there's no question about that fact. Once he lost his fingers, he could not row and sailed in other boats. His last sail, trying to cross the Atlantic (for a third time, previously succesfull but in much larger boats) was in a Swampscott that capsized twice.

To my eyes, the Ridgway and Blyth 'English Rose III' does not look like a Swampscott dory at all. The sides seem to be straight, albeit high and with a deck. But Blyth (Sir Chay) is still alive, so I guess we could ask him. Anyone know him?

Harbo (not Harpo) and Samuelson's boat, the 'Richard K. Fox', was a "typical New Jersey double-ended surf boat...It measured eighteen feet long, was five feet at the beam and was clinker-built of white cedar." It was not decked, but had buoyancy tanks.

[Phil Dory]

Sorry for belaboring this point, but I love dories, so here's more. The official 'oceanrowing' website, below, has the following, indicating that the Ridgway/Blyth dory was not highly modified: "Ridgeway [sic] could not afford a custom boat design, and so bought a new stock Yorkshire dory (cost £185), built by Bradford Boat Services in Bradford, Yorkshire. This boat was based on a centuries-old design used by Nova Scotia fishermen." According to the same site, 5 boats of similar design have been used since to row across the Atlantic. I've been unable to confirm what a 'Yorkshire' dory is, but I cannot find any evidence of 'Swampscott'-like dories made in England, either in Leather's "Sail and Oar" or McKee's "Working Boats of Britain". Banks-like dories originated in Europe, at least from the 18th century, and are still used there.

In the book mentioned above, Leather has a great story from two sailors caught in a storm at night in a Banks dory, which confirms the 'sliding' ability of the design: p.60 "The wind not only fought us with the sea, which it kicked up into foaming mountains that carried our little boat up till we thought we would touch the blackest snow clouds. And then she would slide us down a steep bluff of water...". They survived two nights to tell their story.

I admit that I've never rowed a Swampscott dory, but I don't think it could handle that kind of waves without capsizing (as Blackburn did in his Swampscott). The bottom seem to be far too narrow, which no doubt is great for sailing.

http://www.oceanrowing.com/statistics/Boats/boat_design.htm

[boatbear]

When I first launched my Sea Chanty, sans skeg, it was near impossible to row. Or rather, it would row in a reasonably straight line as long as I kept rowing. When I lifted the oars it would quickly spin to the right or left and was much happier going sideways. I fitted a skeg, very similar to Thorne's. Problem solved.
Charlie

[Bob Triggs]

Great stuff here all. Thanks BoatBear for that info too.

Perhaps it is more important to balance out the seat thwart and oarlock locations/ relationships in these boats when they do not have a keel or skeg?

Ridgeway and Blythe wrote a good little book about it all: "A Fighting Chance". I got one from a bookseller here for a few bucks last winter. Maybe amazon has it too. English Rose was/is a dory-like modern remake that they rowed across the Atlantic. How they modified her and loaded her with canned food, and the ballast was drinking water beneath the floorboards in plastic bags. They really made a heroic trip. I couldnt do it on canned food though.

Howard Blackburn has to be one of my favorite, and if not the most flambouyant and Barnumesque adventurers. Read his story in a great book: "Lone Voyager". He did indeed row for many years after he lost his fingers to freezing injuries and tissue death. (That story alone is worth the book). But his later accomplishments are truly inspiring.

But Harbo and Samuelsen really did it hard and true. It was a magnifcent feat of navigation and seamanship. I read a good book on their trip a few years ago:
"Daring The Sea" by David Shaw and I strongly recommend it.

I think that a traditional Swampscott Dory should be able to handle anything that a Banker would, as long as it was balanced out alright and under oars. These dories were indeed narrower in the bottom board but they also have knuckled or rounded sides , rather than the straight up Banks Dory type sides, and this confers some better initial stability while retaining their famous secondary stability.

Not that I want to try any of that steep-seas-and-sideways-sliding-stuff myself...:eek:

[James McMullen]

I think I would prefer to have at least a small skeg myself, but if you're not sure, then a skeg should be easy enough to add after the fact. You can build your boat without one and try it--and if she's too squirreley for your taste then add one.

A skeg, just like a shoe keel or bilge runner, should be mounted using screws or through bolts over a flexible bedding compound so that it can be easily replaced once you've dragged it over one oyster shell too many. Don't glue it on with epoxy or 5200--five years from now you'll thank me!

[boylesboats]

Some dories like white water type do not have skeg
Bank Dories doesn't..
It all depend on your liking.. Skeg gets in my way everytime, I end up snapping them off on hidden object like rocks, submerged tree stumps, and such.. Just think about how you are using the dory for.. May skeg will be useful, or may it not..

[Tom Hunter]

A few thoughts

Men died in banks dories all the time. The got swamped, rolled, run down, lost and froze to death. None of them ever came home and said "those damn dories are awful, they killed me and a hundred other guys." Not that the banks dory is a bad boat, but the survivors write the press.

One moral from Thad's post, a good oarsman can get the best from a boat where someone with less experience may have trouble.

You can ad a skeg later if you like. I would probably start with one, my racing dory has one and I have always liked the way she tracks.

And the skeg does help her surf the waves, which is a lot of fun when she gets going.

[Phil Dory]

Tom, men died in all designs of boats. But I think that fishermen were smart enough to have sorted out any dangerous designs without having to die.

You have to be pragmatic. Try a skeg and judge for yourself.

[BrianM]

I added a full length 3" x 4" Oak keel to my Bank Dory. This gave me a handy place to put a pivot for my boiler plate centerboard, and added more lateral resistance for tracking. It also helped when negotiating the rocky shores of Lake Tahoe. I had no hesitation at running her over rocks, or up on the gravel beaches. She tracked really straight after that both sailing and while under oars. Yes, she resisted pivoting, but that's what I wanted. I went a bit much on the weigh addition, where the timber and plate probably added 50-60lbs, but she was much more comfortable in a chop on S.F. Bay.

[Phil Dory]

BrianM, any pics we can look at? Did adding the centerboard change its rowing ability? Thanks, Phil

[nedL]

I had an ancient old 16' Banks dory when I was growing up. Rowed her & sailed her lots of miles (she was built in the early 1900's, but had an original centerboard). She was fine without any sort of a skeg & I would never put one on.
-- Since "FOX" was mentioned, I've rowed her as well, or I should say the 'replica'. It is not known what ever happened to the original that crossed the Atlantic. Fox was not a 'typical' Jersey shore surfboat; she was specially designed & built by the Seaman boat works of Long Branch NJ just for the job. Nice boat to row.

http://www.navesinkmaritime.org/images/DSC00848.JPG

[BrianM]

BrianM, any pics we can look at? Did adding the centerboard change its rowing ability? Thanks, Phil

I forgot I took these:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d738b3127ccebce9ac21e48700000036100FZsWrly3Ym

For the first 15 years of ownership, I never bothered to add the false-stem the print called for in John Gardners "Dory Book". It was a handy place to anchor the forward part of the "false keel", so I added one. Looks salty anyhow.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d738b3127ccebc96f473050200000036100FZsWrly3Ym

Centerboard truck, exterior grade doug fir, sealed inside and out with epoxy paint.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d738b3127ccebce9ccb5e42300000036100FZsWrly3Ym

Red Oak cheeks, exterior grade doug fir ply.. heck, she was a driveway queen anyhow.

[BrianM]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d738b3127ccebce9bde7a4d100000036100FZsWrly3Ym
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d738b3127ccebce9bdd625d000000036100FZsWrly3Ym
Salvaged 2" x 6" for the mast partner. In dory tradition, I never permanently attached the other thwarts.
Since I don't Cod Fish from schooners, I never realized the advantage of "Stackability". It did make
placing the mast and oars in the boats bottom easier for trailering. I ripped more 2X salvaged fir to make gratings to keep your fit out of the wet bilge. Boat never was in the water long enough to take up properly.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d738b3127ccebce9cb31250c00000036100FZsWrly3Ym
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d738b3127ccebce9bddba4ed00000036100FZsWrly3Ym

[BrianM]

I decided to eliminate the pin leakage into the trunk issue by just putting the pin outside the boat. Our whaleboats in the Sea Scouts were set up this way. It made taking the board off pretty easy.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d738b3127ccebce9b6dd654600000036100FZsWrly3Ym

Now, did the external keel affect the rowing/handling? Well, the boat has always been very heavy as I built her from 3/4" stock even though the print called for 1/2" (at least topsides). The added weight was pretty negligible.

The thing I always hated about the boat without a skeg/keel was that she was so darn tender which affected how straight she tracked. Any lean seemed to make one of the "chines" dig in, and she'd veer to port or starboard. The boat had the designed rocker (2" at bow, 1 1/2" at stern if memory serves), so the keel really helped quite a bit in getting rid of that very irritating "handling" flaw.

[S B]

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents worth, on the banks dory. It was a cheap boat for cheap life, it drowned thousands of men. Those who survived did so because of there skill. I have had the opportunity to row the occasional one and in anything less than ideal conditions,it was a wild ride. A dory will stay on top of everything alright, but it takes all of your attention to stay in it and get where you intend to go. There are numerous stories of men rowing home after being left behind by the schooner, but there is no counting the ones that didn't make it.

Question. what is this sliding down a wave thing? I have had a few waves pass under the boat, it went up and down, the boat never seemed to shift position.

[Phil Dory]

BrianM, thanks for the pics.

S B, it could be so but none of us will ever experience the conditions the banks dory was used, including the sliding off huge waves. For what it's worth, there's some literature on the Banks dory's seaworthiness, and it seems to be quite positive but ultimately it can't be checked. For example, John Gardner mentions that the Coast Guard adopted the design for its use. I doubt they did it because it was cheap and that their men's lives were cheap, but it is anecdotal, as with most of this kind of evidence.

No doubt cod fishing was a dangerous job. Let's say we had our current knowledge of designs but had to live back then, what open row boat would be best for the job (hauling 1000 pds of fish) in the North Atlantic? http://giam.typepad.com/100_years_of_illustration/images/2007/04/27/wh_halibut_dory_2.jpg

[James McMullen]

http://www.navesinkmaritime.org/images/DSC00848.JPG

If this is indeed a true replica of the Fox that Harbo and Samuelson rowed across the Atlantic, then the Fox was in no way, shape or form an actual dory in any respect. This double-ender would most likely be termed a "peapod" for a generic descriptive. It has nothing in common with a dory other than also being made of wood.
I think the newspapers of the day used a generalised but incorrect term for this boat in much the same way that a modern non-boater might refer to any old-timey looking open wooden boat as a "dory", not knowing any better.

[Phil Dory]

There's some confusion here. The 'Fox' (original name was 'Richard K. Fox') was never described as a dory, but as a "typical New Jersey double-ended surf boat". It was mentioned above in the context of small boats, mostly dories, used to cross the Atlantic.

[nedL]

I'm curious as to where the reference to the name of "FOX" actually being "Richard K. Fox" comes from? Pictures that I have of the original boat clearly show just "FOX", and all references that I have (transcript of her log, articles (period & current), and a letter from her builder) refer to her as "FOX".
As far as her design is concerned, her forward half has very much the lines of a typical jersey surf boat of the day, however she is double ended rather than the typical transom stern with a boxed or rolled garboard keel. She also has a full length heel and exterior handrails at the turn of the bilge. It is believed that the replica is VERY close to the original as the designer of the replica (Pappy Seaman) was the son of the builder of the original, and helped build the original "FOX" in 1896, when he was 13 years old. Pappy used original photos, notes, & his memory when he designed "FOX" in 1974.
Actually, articles of the day (1896) seem to have refered to her as only a "rowboat".

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df10b3127cceb4f11b3c30a200000036102Bbs3DVuzZI

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b8df10b3127cceb4f1348b709a00000016102Bbs3DVuzZI

[S B]

BrianM, thanks for the pics.

S B, it could be so but none of us will ever experience the conditions the banks dory was used, including the sliding off huge waves. For what it's worth, there's some literature on the Banks dory's seaworthiness, and it seems to be quite positive but ultimately it can't be checked. For example, John Gardner mentions that the Coast Guard adopted the design for its use. I doubt they did it because it was cheap and that their men's lives were cheap, but it is anecdotal, as with most of this kind of evidence.

No doubt cod fishing was a dangerous job. Let's say we had our current knowledge of designs but had to live back then, what open row boat would be best for the job (hauling 1000 pds of fish) in the North Atlantic? http://giam.typepad.com/100_years_of_illustration/images/2007/04/27/wh_halibut_dory_2.jpg
Fog Warning, Winslow Homer, nice painting. It's a bit romantic, full of false detail. Two 300lb halibut? in the stern, would be interesting to see how they were rolled overthe side, thole pins set for a second rower, anchor hanging off the bow, and cuddy. Fisherman watches schooner,full sail, disappear into the fog.

Dories are still used on the south coast of Newfoundland, Grand Bank fishery tradition. Not for me.:)

[Phil Dory]

Reference for FOX: p. 107ff 'A Speck on the Sea'.
Their sponsor was Richard K. Fox, publisher of the Police Gazette. The author repeatedly states that the boat was named 'Richard K. Fox', but the photo of the original boat on p.108 has only FOX, as with the replica above.

[Thorne]

Back to the skeg issue. Just watched the video link on the Jersey skiff, and was reminded again of how both that boat and the Chamberlain dory skiff were designed to be launched and landed through the surf.

The Chamberlain dory skiff has a skeg, and of course the Jersey/Seabright skiff has a large skeg / deadwood area at the stern.

http://www.folkstreams.net/video/sea_bright_skiff/sea_bright_skiff.mov

So it sure seems to me that the bit about not having a skeg to avoid being rolled sideways is rather moot. Most boats (and surfboards) really need that directional stability to keep the pointy ends into the surf rather than going broadside...

[Phil Dory]

Good point Thorne, different boats for different jobs. It stands to reason that the desirable properties of one may be an impairment to the other.

And I do like your hat! I'm guessing it's from the time of Cromwell.

[Thorne]

Ooooh - don't get me started on hats again, OK?

;0 )

Yes, you guessed correctly, my unit portrays those pesky Roundhead churchsmashers...

http://www.luckhardt.com/noking1.jpg

[shark_ef]

just to throw in my $0.02, i'm a big fan of dories, i think they are adorable (yeah in that VW van so ugly they are cute way) and i've had lots of fun in them, but it wasn't pretty and they are not easy to single hand (or even double hand, you always need some one for live ballast) and they aren't "easy" boats, which is why i think i was having so much fun...a while back I had to oppurtunity to sail and row one of Bluenose II's dories, which is where we had all the fun, we were at anchor in company with them and we sailed her with the rail right at water's edge, using one of the chines as a keel, and bailing like crazy when we put too much of the rail in. we also figured if we swamped the little thing, there were three boats full of ppl watching us make idiots of ourselves so we'd be ok if we went swimming, rowing was also fun, but my comparison was to crew shells, so there ya go (oh and it was a traditional dory, so no skeg) and we were in a fair bit of wind, but in a protected bay, so the water was nothing big
-i like dories cuase they aren't the easiest boats and for me a lot of their appeal is figuring htem out, and i'm also a history nut when it comes to traditional ways of living, so i guess i echo what others have said, dories can be hilarious fun, if you arne't all that interested in going anyplace fast or in a pretty manner, modify your boat to fit your need and sensibilities and personality, its your boat

[Phil Dory]

Ah! the English Civil War - fascinating. I'm an enthusiast of European wars of those times, the Thirty Year War most. But we have to keep discussion to boats, so here's an anecdote from that time: King Charles II, whose father you guys beheaded, was a yachting enthusiast, on which reputedly "Restless he roll[ed] from whore to whore."

[shark_ef]

oh, and the first dudes across the atlantic thing: there were a few (more than one less than 100) instances of a fisherman being blown away from his achooner/ship and ending up over in europe, again, how many died to not tell about it, and how many did tends to shapes the facts

[nedL]

Interesting about the "Richard K. Fox" bit and the book "A Speck on the Sea". In the transcript of Harbo & Samuelsen's log there is mention of them initially being towed out of NY harbor by the naptha launch "R.K.FOX", which was the private boat of Richard Fox, the sponsor. The log even ends with a statement by the US counsel on the other side of the Atlantic cofirming that he inspected "FOX" and found no mast or sails aboard. Regardless, it was quite an accomplishment for two local Highlands NJ fishermen.

[Phil Dory]

I found an article in the NY Times dated May 15 1895 entitled "PILOT NICOLAY TO BE CENSURED; Not for Deserting the Stranded Richard K. Fox, But for Neglecting to Cast His Lead in Shoal Water."

Although the pilot boat's full name was 'Richard K Fox', the boat is called the Fox in the rest of the article. Strange coincidence.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=980DE4DF1E39E033A25756C1A9639C94 649ED7CF