How not to build a Man-O-War

[J. Dillon]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/us/25ship.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=9d2a57cb112fa535&ex=1209787200&emc=eta1&adxnnlx=1209222374-HSnLhuV5ifFguRD87mY3rA

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/photo/2008/04/24/20080425SHIP/22682237.JPG

It appears we haven't learned anything from the recent USCG cutter debacle.:(

JD

[Mrleft8]

Huh? What's this picture got to do with the build? Looks more like "How not to launch a vessel...."

[seanz]

Well it's 'how not to' something but I'm not quite sure what.....
These ships were ordered in response (partly) to the bombing of the USS Cole......in October 2000.

[J. Dillon]

Lefty, Ya have to read the N.Y. Times article not just look at the pictures.
:rolleyes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/us/25ship.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=9d2a57cb112fa535&ex=1209787200&emc=eta1&adxnnlx=1209222374-HSnLhuV5ifFguRD87mY3rA



JD

[Bill R]

Our tax dollars hard at work. More brilliance from the Military-Industrial complex.

[boylesboats]

That is one BIG splash:D

[Mrleft8]

Lefty, Ya have to read the N.Y. Times article not just look at the pictures.
:rolleyes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/us/25ship.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=9d2a57cb112fa535&ex=1209787200&emc=eta1&adxnnlx=1209222374-HSnLhuV5ifFguRD87mY3rA



JD
AH! Gotcha!....Well what do you expect from this back slapping smirking, under the table deal making crooked, inept administration?

[Don Z.]

AH! Gotcha!....Well what do you expect from this back slapping smirking, under the table deal making crooked, inept administration?

Umm... if you actually think that the administration has that much control over the acquisitions process... no amount of discussion will bring further education...

The bigger question is "will this ship be able to perform its intended mission?"

[Lew Barrett]

Here are the parts that indict the admin:

The program’s tribulations speak to what military experts say are profound shortcomings in the Pentagon’s acquisitions system. Even as spending on new projects has risen to its highest point since the Reagan years, being over budget and behind schedule have become the norm: a recent Government Accountability Office audit found that 95 projects — warships, helicopters and satellites — were delayed 21 months on average and cost 26 percent more than initially projected, a bill of $295 billion.

At the same time, a policy of letting contractors take the lead in managing weapons programs has coincided with an acute shortage of government engineers trained to oversee these increasingly complex enterprises........

Lockheed had virtually no shipbuilding experience. But in keeping with a Pentagon policy that called for letting big military contractors run complex projects with minimal government supervision, the Navy made the companies primarily responsible for all phases of development — from concept studies to detailed design and construction.......

At Lockheed, executives say they feared that slowing down construction would put them at a disadvantage in their battle to win the contract over General Dynamics......

“If we do not figure out how to establish credibility in our shipbuilding programs and plans, and restore confidence in our ability to deliver on our commitments, we cannot expect Congress or the nation to provide us with the resources we so urgently need.”

To his credit, Winter acknowledges (as demonstrated in the above comment) that there's a gap between current procurement practice and reality. But really.....as Secretary of the Navy, reporting directly to the "Big Cheese" in Washington, wasn't it his job to monitor this process all the way through? More bad planning and incompetence
for which, in the end, Harry Truman's famous line continues to fit.
The most wasteful administration that anybody can remember.

[Don Z.]

Um... well... let me tell you about some GS 13s and 14s I've worked with. Union ones, that is... And there are some SES positions that are not political appointees.

No... if we blame the problems on an administration, any administration, we will never fix the acquisition problems. Your point about "letting contractors take the lead in managing weapons programs..." well, I'd like to say that goes back to the 90s... but the truth is that the 60s is a better answer. Somewhere along the way, we decided that the "businessmen" know more about it than the people who depend on it. That's a McNamara "Whiz Kid" thing.

Also, any good idea takes at least ten years to get out of the Pentagon. Care to guess at the reason for that?

So please. No platitudes without suggestions that work.

[Paul Scheuer]

From the article -

. . . But strategists came to fear that the “David and Goliath” phenomenon underlined by the attack on the Cole, what they call asymmetric warfare, would only grow in the years ahead.
“We needed to figure out how to asymmetric the asymmetric guys,” . . .

I'm trying to figure out how a 40-knot, 300+ foot vessel is on the right side of "asymmetric". It seems like three sailors with rifles in a ship's boat could have defended the Cole.

[seanz]

Now now Paul...if one side doesn't have great big bits of hardware it makes things a bit difficult, assymetrically speaking.
;)

The really strange thing (most strangerest?) about this program is using a fast ferry design as a starting point for a warship. Costs might go as high as $600 million for this ship which has similar numbers (length, draught) as an ANZAC frigate (German MEKO 200 design) why not start there and build a faster frigate?

[Mad Scientist]

Somewhere along the way, we decided that the "businessmen" know more about it than the people who depend on it. That's a McNamara "Whiz Kid" thing.

I was hoping that someone would mention McNamara and his "Whiz kids".
Maybe shipyards wanting to build warships should hire a bunch of retired CPO's - people with lots of seatime. Might prevent some of the designers' wrong assumptions from getting off the drawing board.

And, who had the stupid idea to build an aluminum warship? Seems that the lesson of the USN cruiser with the melted aluminum superstructure (there was a photo posted on the Forum a few weeks ago) was forgotten. There are 1 or 2 Forumites who were there and survived that fire.

[Lew Barrett]

Your point about "letting contractors take the lead in managing weapons programs..." well, I'd like to say that goes back to the 90s... but the truth is that the 60s is a better answer. Somewhere along the way, we decided that the "businessmen" know more about it than the people who depend on it. That's a McNamara "Whiz Kid" thing.


If you are speaking to me, then I'll hasten to point out that it wasn't my point; just quoting the article.

Who did McNamara work for....and who is "we?"

As for the rest of the procurement process....yeah...Pentagon.

[Oyvind Snibsoer]

That thing is about as large as our new frigates, which are the largest warships ever in the Norw. Navy. The stuff we have for littoral warfare is considerably smaller (and faster)

http://www.waffenhq.de/schiffe/skjold01.jpg

Small, diesel-electric subs ain't too bad an idea, either. The Norw. Navy published a story, without going into too much detail, of how two rogue ships had rendevouzed in a shallow area in the Mediterranean to exchange some goods, in an area where they thought themselves safe from prying eyes because there was no way a sub could go there...Wrong! A sub of the Ula class was lying right beside them and photographing all their actions.

A diesel-electric sub may not be as fast nor have the range of a nuclear sub, but it can be very, very quiet. Much more so than a nuke that always needs to have its pumps running for cooling the reactor, or so I've been told by my ex-submariner friends. They are also very maeuverable. My buddies love to tell stories of how they would go all the way into the inner harbor submerged, and then surface right at their berth.

http://home.no.net/radied/images/Bilder_original/S300-utenfor-Skottland.jpg

[Don Z.]

If you are speaking to me, then I'll hasten to point out that it wasn't my point; just quoting the article.


Noted...



Who did McNamara work for....and who is "we?"



Last I checked... The SecDef works for POTUS, and POTUS works for the Citizens of the United States...

Of course, if you want a more specific answer, I would submit the names "John Fitzgerald Kennedy" and "Lyndon Baines Johnson".

But "we"... as in the people who seem to tolerate such nonsense.

[Lew Barrett]

Complete agreement here Don. Which brings us back to square one.