Hermann Goering's Motor Yacht "Carin II" Lying in the Red Sea

[Metronicity]

Yep the Luftwaffe fattie's 90 foot cruiser is wasting away in the Red Sea Egypt after a run-in with Colonel Gaddafi back in '87. This boat has an amazing history. Montgomery claimed her as a war prize after WWII and presented her to the British Royal Family who renamed her "Prince Albert" and then "Prince Charles" and cavorted around in her for 15 years - with most of the original German crew. She was handed back to the Goering family and was sold - ending up with the guy who claimed to have found Hitler's diary. Then went on to further adventures until ending up in a pretty sorry state. Heaps of photos and info here -

http://www.welcometowallyworld.com/frontpage/2008/4/26/hitlers-diary-hermann-goerings-yacht.html

I'm interested in forming a consortium to buy the vessel.

[S.V. Airlie]

She must have one heck of a beam!:eek:

[Noah]

Wow - pretty darn cool.

[S.V. Airlie]

Wow - pretty darn cool.

It actually is.. But wow..
Noah, you ain't planning on going anywhere with this are ya.. I mean, not sure what you would do with it on the lake.. up there...;);)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I don't believe a word of it.

There are any number of old boats around with this sort of "provenance" cooked up by some broker or optimistic seller.

I myself have seen at least two such - it seems almost any boat built in Germany in the 1930's gets this label attached to it sooner or later.

And this provenance comes from... the man who forged Hitler's diaries?

The suggestion that British Royal Family once owned this boat is absurd.

[TimH]

I believe its Winston Churchills boat myself.

[Lew Barrett]

I agree with ACB until further documentation proves otherwise. And frankly, I'd find her more attractive without the bizarre connection and history. A boat of this scope will surely have been owned by "somebody." Better a somebody I approve of! Goering's stuff would be tainted in my view. His bed is no place I'd want to sleep.

[Art Read]

I don't know... Compare the superstructure details in these two views:

http://www.welcometowallyworld.com/storage/carin2side.jpg

http://www.welcometowallyworld.com/storage/carin11.jpg

Could be the same vessel...

[TimH]

hey ART! LTNS :-)

[Noah]

I'm just amazed she is still as straight as she is - no hog and the rub rails appear board straight.

I have a thing for classic cruisers like that, but I can't imagine the Varnish work required.

Is this the same boat?

http://intheboatshed.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/carindenmark.jpg

[Lew Barrett]

Very similar indeed. About the only differences I'd swear to are the port light counts. One has five, the other six. That's not a deal killer of course; easy enough to add one in sixty years. SO, maybe.....
I still don't know that being Goering's boat increases her value, or makes her a place I'd want to sleep.

[TimH]

I'm just amazed she is still as straight as she is - no hog and the rub rails appear board straight.




Built in Germany?

[pcford]

Is our boy Hermann rolling up a doob?

Noticing the Italian officer...an instructor in diplomatic history in a course I took long ago... a bit of a wag, suggested that surrender in North Africa may have been a part of the Italians' strategy. They surrendered in such numbers that they clogged up the advance of the Brits.

http://www.welcometowallyworld.com/storage/carin12.jpg

[TimH]

I still don't know that being Goering's boat increases her value, or makes her a place I'd want to sleep.

a might superstitous are we Lew :D

[pcford]

I still don't know that being Goering's boat increases her value, or makes her a place I'd want to sleep.

In the 70s Goering's sailboat was in Seattle. A friend worked on interior refinishing. The story was that the Dutch builders kept adding more intricate details 'til Hermann was sent to his reward. He never used it.

By the way....saw a documentary on the Nuremburg trials. Goering was able to stroll about the courtroom. Probably the source of the substance that kept him from his just reward. Always wondered about that.

[pcford]

a might superstitous are we Lew :D

Not really...I'd say. It would be a very creepy place to be.

[TimH]

its just a boat.

[SchoonerRat]

I remember the "Grötte Beer", Görings sailboat from my youth in So. Cal. It looked like a Dutch canal boat with a big leeboard. I last saw her in Victoria, BC at a classic boat festival in the early '80s. She was still very well maintained.

[pcford]

I remember the "Grötte Beer", Görings sailboat from my youth in So. Cal. It looked like a Dutch canal boat with a big leeboard. I last saw her in Victoria, BC at a classic boat festival in the early '80s. She was still very well maintained.

I think the boat is on the east coast now.

If I recall correctly, my friend helped take her south down the west coast. In coastal waters she progressed by two steps forward and one back.

[pcford]

its just a boat.

Which was owned and used by some of the most evil people of the last couple centuries.

If you had the opportunity, would you live in the "Eagle's Nest." Nice view. I wouldn't. Call me superstitious, I guess.

[Tom Robb]

As I understand it Fatso got the poison from an American GI guard he befriended. The GI ought to have taken fatso's place on the gallows for that trick.
I wouldn't call it superstitious. I wouldn't care to be connected in any way with the Nazis, their ilk, or their works.

[SchoonerRat]

I think the boat is on the east coast now.

If I recall correctly, my friend helped take her south down the west coast. In coastal waters she progressed by two steps forward and one back.
Grötte Beer never struck me as much of a sailboat, extremely beamy, leeboard, not much of a rig. Two steps forward and three back would not have surprised me. It was, however, a classic beauty. When boarding her in Victoria, this "Nice Jewish Boy" felt a bit uncomfortable with the Nazi memorabilia aboard. She seemed to be waiting for Hermann's return.

[pcford]

As I understand it Fatso got the poison from an American GI guard he befriended. The GI ought to have taken fatso's place on the gallows for that trick.
I wouldn't call it superstitious. I wouldn't care to be connected in any way with the Nazis, their ilk, or their works.

Interesting...google search comes up with:

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=510000796

[Lew Barrett]

My feelings too Tom. The ownership is tainted. Sleeping "in his bed" was a euphemism on my part.



Here's a "local thread" on the other (Groote Beer) boat.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69888&highlight=groote

[Metronicity]

@ Andrew Craig-Bennett and other doubting Thomases.

The provenance and history of this boat is very well documented. In fact the original LOG of this vessel is for sale online at AU$4000. It's a very famous and well-known vessel. The photo above is the same boat. You'll notice there are 6 portholes showing on the port side and 5 to starboard. She's 71 years old so you'd expect some modifications with the half-a-dozen owners since Goering. She WAS a Royal Yacht after the war - renamed "Royal Albert" and then "Prince Charles" - again well-documented.
The provenance doesn't come from Heidemann - the Hitler Diaries Stern reporter - he just happens to have owned her briefly - bought the vessel from Goering's daughter after it was handed back from the Royal Family who had her for 15 years.
"The suggestion that British Royal Family once owned this boat is absurd." Well...what can I say? Perhaps you'd like to ring Prince Charles for confirmation? ;-)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Like most other British yachtsmen of my age, I think I have a pretty clear idea of what yachts have been owned by the British Royal Family since WW2.

Starting small:

Coweslip - Flying Fifteen

Bluebottle - Dragon

Bloodhound - big offshore racer, designed and built by Nicholson

Britannia - big steam yacht, built on the lines of a North Sea ferry, secondary use as hospital ship.

If you notice a bit of a pattern here, it is that Prince Philip likes sailing.

No suggestion of ever owning a powerboat - what would be the point?

Over to you to come up with some real evidence.

[Ian McColgin]

I have a hard time imagining the royal family being so tasteless as to firstly name a vessel "Prince Albert" and then rename her "Prince Charles." I can't even see any of them being guests on such a boat.

I suppose it's not impossible for the yacht to have been held by British forces though I'm most unclear why they would later return her to Goering's family.

[Metronicity]

Well yes she's obviously not a sailing yacht but a motor yacht. Here's a description of the LOG for sale: GERM WW2 FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY TO PURCHASE THIS ULTRA RARE HERMAN GORING PERSONALITY ITEM. THE ORIGINAL LOG BOOKS FOR GORING'S FAMOUS MOTOR YACHT CARIN II, from May 1939 to August 1939 in case, plus Log books for "Royal Albert" 1947 -1948, "Royal Albert" 1948 and Prince Charles commencing June 3rd 1950. (A total of four deck Log books.) The 1939 Log Book is well filled out with many entries listing voyages to and from Goring's home "Carinhall". This book frequently lists the Field Marshall as being aboard, sometimes with family. Named after his first wife Carin, Goring's original yacht was considered by Goring to be beneath to his position in the Third Reich. Built in 1937 to replace her as Goring's personal luxury craft, "Carin II" became one of the worlds most intriguing and exciting historical ships. From the time of her construction, to date she has hosted a varied range of personalities from senior Nazis, including Adolf Hitler, to British Royalty, including Prince Phillip and Prince Charles, various Heads of State and even spies. She has had her fair run with adventures and misfortunes. From her decks in 1938 the rebuilding of the Luftwaffe was planned and she served as Goring's command post during the early stages of the War. Commandeered by Field Marshall Bernard Montgomery at the end of the Second World War, Carin II was placed into the services of the Royal Navy as "Royal Albert" and later "Prince Charles". In 1954 she was the lead boat in the first joint NATO exercise code named "Cordon Bleu". In 1960 "Prince Charles" was handed back to Goring's daughter Emmy. Since then she has again had at least one further name change and let a colourful history with various owners. Another interesting sideline to this is that even whilst the yacht was under British Admiralty command, virtually all the crew were still German and the log book entries were made in their Mother tongue. This is a rare chance to obtain a personality item such as this with a unique and highly interesting history. (Naval history buffs will find further interesting articles concerning Carin II by checking out the Internet.) Grade II. From here: http://www.iswright.com.au/result-militaria.php?subcat=231

From that I would deduce she wasn't officially a "Royal Yacht" but was put at the disposal of the Royal Family. And I can't find any reference to a NATO naval exercise called "Operation Cordon Bleu". There was a land exercise under that name. NATO appears to have held its first major naval exercise "Operation Mainbrace" in September 1952. Maybe the Hitler Diaries forger has been at work here too?

[Art Read]

Sounds like she was simply employed as a Royal Navy "auxiliary" for a time. Not an unusual practice from what I recall. Our Coast Guard "EAGLE" was a war reparation too... The Royal Family would not likely have had any connection at all save perhaps as passengers aboard for a "Royal Review"?

[Tom Hunter]

Nice boat

Carinhall is landlocked, there may be logs saying that the boat voyaged to and from the place, but they are not a good reason to buy the boat. Maybe they were written by the same guy who "found" Hitler's diaries?

NATO was founded in 1949, I'm pretty sure their first exercise occurred before 1954.


There was a Nato Exercise called Cordon Bleu in 1955, it took place on land, involving the US 3rd Armored Cav and other units.

It seems to me that one of two things is possible:

Either you have a really amazing boat here, amazing because it travels on the hard well enough to host parties at landlocked loactions and participate in military exercises with M48 tanks.

Or there is a huge pack of lies written around a rather nice yacht.

By the way all this information can be found with Google, I'm no expert on Nazi yachting. Google does make it a lot harder to fool the public than it was.

[Lew Barrett]

"This is a rare chance to obtain a personality item such as this with a unique and highly interesting history. (Naval history buffs will find further interesting articles concerning Carin II by checking out the Internet.)"

Just a thought; is it not in the worst of taste to trade on Goering's ownership regarding this vessel while the goods of many of the victims remain tied up or unreturned 60 years after the end of hostilities?
"A personality item." There's something amiss here. The notion of returning this boat to Goering's daughter after a suitably short "mourning period" also sounds off. I'm not disputing the provenance here, just commenting on the strange things people "collect" and the odd notions they will trade on.

The ship's log should probably be in a museum; perhaps one of the holocaust museums to show what Germany's masters were up to as they ravaged the earth. The boat itself will be a huge undertaking from what little we can see. I find all the undeniable interest in Nazi memorabilia more than a bit off-putting, with Hitler Youth daggers trading at a premium and someone touting Goering's ownership of a beat up old boat as a feature. His ownership is likely all that floats her value at this time.

[Metronicity]

Göring had a boathouse at Havel See. "The Oder-Havel Canal - German waterway northeast of Berlin, linking the Havel and Oder rivers. It is 52 mi (83 km) long, 108 ft (33 m) wide, and 6 1/2 ft deep, and is navigable for vessels of up to 1,000 tons. Originally called the Hohenzollern Canal, it was built in 1908–14 to carry traffic between Berlin on the Havel and the Baltic Sea port of Stettin (Szczecin, Pol.) at the mouth of the Oder. It declined in importance until 1945 but then revived with the growth of a chemical industry at Schwedt, on the eastern part of the canal near the Polish border."

Carin II was built 1937 at Herman Heidtmann Shipyards, River Alster near Hofweg - a tributary that fed into the River Elbe.

27.5M Length, 4.65M Beam, 1.25 Draught, 70 Tons, Keel to Top of structure 5.20M.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=533969&t=k&om=1http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=533969&t=k&om=1

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Heidtmann's were, maybe they still are, an outstanding boat builder.

After WW2 they built quite a number of Philip Rhodes designs for export to the USA.

I must concede that this boat was probably built for Goering; the British Royal Family connection is the one that I have trouble with.

In any event after a few years in the Red Sea there won't be much left of her...

[Metronicity]

Here's a German newspaper report on the sale of Carin 11 in 1978. I don't read German but I managed to translate a couple of interesting pieces - she had a "abnehmbarem steurhaus" - a removable "steering-house" so that she could get under canal bridges I suppose. It also mentions the British Royals using her as a "ausflugsdampfer" - an excursion steamer.
http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/image/show.html?did=40607101&aref=image035/E0522/PPM-SP197803800720077.pdf&thumb=falsehttp://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/image/show.html?did=40607101&aref=image035/E0522/PPM-SP197803800720077.pdf&thumb=false

And this Update on my original blog post should silence the doubters once and for all - http://www.welcometowallyworld.com/frontpage/2008/4/26/hitlers-diary-hermann-goerings-yacht.html

[carioca1232001]

Built in Germany?

Some 2O years ago I was asked to test a 30 MW /60Hz Hydrogenerator built in the ´30s by Siemens-Schuckert, in order to determine certain input-output carachteristics.

This was my first encounter with a major device engineered and built in Germany.

To precision build a large machine as such, and that too in the 30´s with no recourse to electronic feedback circuits, left me gaping at the mouth !

[Lew Barrett]

If you google "Carin II" this is the first link you come up with. Truly remarkable, and worth following.
http://www.pzg.biz/regalia_blue_max.htm
Scroll down to see the boat, then explore the site a bit.

I'm sure it's not the boat's fault, but you tell me if these people aren't whacko or not. So Metronicity, whats the deal here?

[skuthorp]

Life's ironies abound. On Anzac day a very young school band was playing old traditional hymn tunes, blissfully unaware that one of them had been use by the Nazi regime aas their anthem "Deutchland uber alles" (excuse my bad German). A few wry grins were seen about, but most were also unaware which is good.

[Lew Barrett]

Did you check the site, Jeff? Amazing stuff. Truly jaw dropping as you dig into it. Of course, one really shouldn't be surprised.

[andrewe]

Hum, A (swedish) friend of mine mentioned the family´s embarrasment that his great aunt Carin was HG´s mistress (not wife) and the hunting lodge was named after her.
A

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

If you google "Carin II" this is the first link you come up with. Truly remarkable, and worth following.
http://www.pzg.biz/regalia_blue_max.htm
Scroll down to see the boat, then explore the site a bit.

I'm sure it's not the boat's fault, but you tell me if these people aren't whacko or not. So Metronicity, whats the deal here?

That's as far as I got. I did not want to go any further.

"Weird" is not strong enough. "Whacko" is about right. And one suspects that if one went further the term would be "sicko".:eek:

[Lew Barrett]

Quite right, Andrew.

[Metronicity]

Looks like Lew Barrett hasn't even bothered to follow my link and read it. I have FAR MORE information than that tired old link you've thrown up. In fact I'm corresponding with the present owner. The boat is 71 years old. Göring owned her for 8. Yes he was a despicable Nazi. But...the Nazis also built (1936) the three-masted barque "Horst Wessel" originally a training ship for the German Navy. It was seized by the U.S. as a war prize after World War II and is now "USCGC Eagle" - a training ship for the U.S. Coast Guard. Horst Wessel was a leading martyr of the Nazis and the eulogy at his funeral was given by Goebbels in the presence of...our old mate Göring. http://www.cga.edu/display.aspx?id=360http://www.cga.edu/display.aspx?id=360
Nazis also owned Benz, Volkswagen and BMW cars and used slave labour in their factories. Does that mean you wouldn't ride in or buy one of those cars or buy a product from a German company that used slave labour during the war? I see a beautiful classic boat that needs restoring. Its wasting away on the Red Sea. The twin Benz diesels (installed 1983) haven't been run in "awhile" but the hull was glassed by the Hitler Diaries guy and is sound and dry. Can you imagine what it would cost to build a double diagonal 90 foot teak over oak these days?
So "what's the deal here" as you put it? I'm not a Nazi Memorabilia buff or a Neo-Nazi or anything to do with the bloody Nazis. In fact my wife's grandfather was a hero of the Resistance and was with De Gaulle in London and at the Liberation of Paris.
All I see is a marvellous boat that will probably end up on the bottom of the Red Sea - it's already been plundered (of the Nazi relics Heidemann installed) three times and been sabotaged (cut shafts) while on the slips. Perhaps it needs to be rescued and turned into a museum of the Holocaust or something? BTW Göring also collected a lot of famous old masters...or I should say "stole" - but he had them. Does this mean we shouldn't look at them either because of their association with him and Nazism? Here's the link again - http://www.welcometowallyworld.com/frontpage/2008/4/26/hitlers-diary-hermann-goerings-yacht.htmlhttp://www.welcometowallyworld.com/frontpage/2008/4/26/hitlers-diary-hermann-goerings-yacht.html

[Lew Barrett]

In fact, I did follow your link, though I admit to skimming some of the research. Goering's history is well known. His mercurial and erratic behavior, his drug addiction, his history as an ace and hero of the Flying Circus who took over after the Baron's death, his bullying of Ernst Udet, his failures to bring down the RAF, Aldertag, all of it. Your opening lines (Goering as "Fatty) make it clear that
you are not a likely Neo-Nazi. Still, a man who has gone to some lengths to research this particular aspect of Hermann's life clearly has some insights into the circumstances surrounding this situation that are unknown to many of us.

In fact, I applaud your responses to the moment, sufficient to cause our fine British sceptic, ACB to alter his opinion. This is a feat I have been unable to accomplish in my years on the forum even when I am reasonably convinced of my own arguments. I was sufficiently amused to do my own Google, and came up with the link in question, which illustrates in good measure the controversy surrounding this boat. A man fresh to the forum but with a sophisticated understanding of these things must surely realize how what appears to be a subtle invitation to
engage in a consortium to buy an object with this provenance might provoke a discussion of considerable, shall we say, animation.

In fact, the only owners that really count in the history of most boats, (there are some exceptions....this might be one since the family got re-involved) are the commissioning owner and the current owner. Since the current owner isn't you, my prod...."what's up pussycat" .... is directed at who that might be. You've done the research, so you would know.

Of course the boat's an inanimate object and "it's not the boat's fault" as I said. But the trail leads somewhere, so where does it lead?
As you say, the stolen art objects, the gold teeth, the millions of lives
and national fortunes lost, the re-making of the maps of Europe....all those things were never the Nazis', nor were they or are they the rightful owners. Bravo to your family for fighting the scourge. But this piece, it was built for a Nazi in Nazi Germany for the use and benefit of one of the world's great criminals. It's provenance doesn't lead back to dead Jews or Gypsies....it leads straight back to Goering. By definition, no Nazi article of worth could have been owned by the "original man" for more than 12 years; the time of existence of the Third Reich.

Such objects as these are sure to be infused with a certain aura that an old master, stolen from the owners, will never have.

As a practical matter:

1. This boat has been sheathed with fiberglass? It would seem that's been a failure with fasteners bleeding through, visible at great distance in the photos. One can only presume that the boat is rotten to the core. A massive undertaking to restore to glory a vessel with a tainted history.

2. Your first post suggests, however indirectly, that you are looking for partners. I inquired indirectly of the most informed person here...you.... as to who will be the beneficiary of the sale, that is, who will receive the money for it. My Google, however old and outdated it might be, suggests that those selling the boat now have less than savory connections, and the further information you supply....the attacks on the vessel....further suggest controversy and dirty hands.
I could be wrong of course. Perhaps you can shed more light on this aspect?

I am certain you are a hale and hearty fellow, and from your words I am assured that you are no great admirer of this fiend. Indeed, I congratulate you and your family for their record in fighting evil. Yet, I still find this a strange venture. Restoring Carin to her former glory, if indeed it is even possible, would not be something that I believe could ever shed more light on the great European tragedy. To me, it seems a vanity doomed to failure by the requirement of a consortium, and the seeming condition of the object. But an interesting footnote.

I'd personally wish to find another, equally beautiful boat on which to spend my ten million dollars, should I have it. They're out there. This one's history is corrupt, and, I fear, her fate is already sealed. However beautiful. Your point about the survival and thriving cultures of BMW, Mercedes and their ilk is well taken, and on target to all our greater confusions and shame. Many remain unpunished for their crimes, and more more than a few enamored of the history. Which is, after all, part of the problem related to this boat.

Welcome to the forum, I hope there are no hard feelings, and I find your posts and responses, at the very least, provocative and well supported. I am satisfied that you are no apologizer or revisionist, not that you need my confirmation for that. No further aspersions regarding your motives are intended or offered, and I look forward to your continued presence and contributions. A point of difference needn't suggest the outcome of this conversation's fellowship. I'm here to discuss, inform if I can, and be informed. This has been interesting and entertaining so far, and fair enough for me to continue in the discussion.

[Metronicity]

O.K. from the top - Göring did take over from The Red Baron and had a much more "derring-do" approach to sorties - the casualty rate soared in his squadron. Some say that his number of "kills" was vastly inflated. And why is that no surprise? He bullshitted Hitler over the real situation of his Luftwaffe against the R.A.F. (leading to the ultimate showdown of the "Battle of Britain").
ACB wanted me to show proof that the Royal Family were associated with this yacht. Best I can do is this from a German magazine "Die Zeit" of 2004 - (lousy Babelfish translation but the gist is there) - "...in 1945 became part of the Royal Navy - renamed the "Royal Albert" - the flagship of the British fleet of the Rhine. In 1952 the boat was renamed "Prince Charles". She steamed from Krefeld for the state visit to Switzerland in 1955 and was even command ship of the British at the first joint NATO maneuvers "Cordon Bleu". Then came Adenauer to the evening reception on Göring's yacht. Regularly, she was used by the Royal Family. The former chef recalls that the Royals used to fly to Frankfurt and then drive by Rolls-Royce to Wiesbaden-Schierstein where they could go by boat up the Rhine to Heidelberg or down to Holland. Prince Charles, as a boy, was kept busy peeling potatoes."

The site you've linked to is not an agent for the owner Sandra Simpson - the widow of Mustafa Karim.

"Fasteners bleeding through"? I don't know how you can claim to see that from those most recent photos. I see a really dirty hull. But even if the fasteners are rotten they can be replaced. It doesn't mean the integrity of the hull is compromised. And the strength of double-diagonal is pretty damn good. I'd say she's pretty fair for an old girl of 71 years. Very fair. Why would you assume she's "rotten to the core"? She'd be well and truly hogged if she were.
I'm probably dreaming but yes I'd like to get a consortium together to buy and restore this vessel. And yes it won't be cheap. Probably looking at something like $500k to get it in a seaworthy state (including the sale price). Who will be the beneficiary? Why the widow of course. "Those selling the boat have less than savory connections?" - something has gone down between her and her husbands family. They were building a resort which stalled while Gaddafi incarcerated her husband for almost a year. There has also been trouble with the Egyptian government - "After its man had died, the Egyptian bureaucracy opened an embittered war around the control over the ship."
Why would restoring a boat have to "shed more light on the great European tragedy". As I pointed out before, the Americans have no problem grabbing the tall ship "Horst Wessel" and using her to this day. A ship built for and owned by the Nazis.
"This one's history is corrupt" - it's an inanimate object - a boat. A fine-looking boat in my opinion. I really couldn't give a toss for the Göring connection. But you're right - her fate could already be sealed.
No hard feelings. Is that "provocative" meaning "stimulating discussion" or "provocative" meaning I've come on this forum like a troll to stir up trouble? ;-) BTW I've owned quite a few old boats. Nothing as big or as old as this. Half-cabins, a flying fifteen, a Vaucluse Senior , a Dragon (with a splined Kauri pine hull), a 26 foot cruiser. The last was a 1967 40 foot Halvorsen flybridge cruiser running twin Cummins diesels. Ate its head off the whole time we owned it.

[SchoonerRat]

So "what's the deal here" as you put it? I'm not a Nazi Memorabilia buff or a Neo-Nazi or anything to do with the bloody Nazis. In fact my wife's grandfather was a hero of the Resistance and was with De Gaulle in London and at the Liberation of Paris.
All I see is a marvellous boat that will probably end up on the bottom of the Red Sea - it's already been plundered (of the Nazi relics Heidemann installed) three times and been sabotaged (cut shafts) while on the slips. Perhaps it needs to be rescued and turned into a museum of the Holocaust or something?
I also am not a Nazi Memorabilia buff or a Neo-Nazi or anything to do with the bloody Nazis. In fact, I'm Jewish.

"Lest We Forget"

----Hammered into my ears----literally since birth.

When aboard Gröte Beer in my youth, I was overwhelmed by the intricate carvings, the acres of varnish and the evidence of superb craftsmanship everywhere I looked. I wanted to forget----but even without the Nazi memorabilia I had cold chills running up and down my spine. It felt like a tribute to Adolf and his crew, even though I was certain that it was not meant to be.

A yacht cannot choose its owner anymore than a child can choose its parents. Carin must be saved. They just aren't making any new 100 year old classic yachts. They all must be saved. BUT.....the Holocaust is still a sensitive issue for many, and will remain so for generations to come. Carin's life as a pleasure boat is, perhaps, so tainted that she should no longer serve as such. Maybe a museum or some sort of tribute to the "8 Million" can allow her to be appreciated--as she should be.

LEST WE FORGET!

[Metronicity]

I thought you were about to give me a broadside! So I'm surprised when you say "Carin must be saved. They just aren't making any new 100 year old classic yachts." With respect, she's only 71 years old. I was just thinking...if she were rotten to the core as my eminent friend suggests, perhaps she could be turned into a restaurant? Cut her in two - like a cross-section - and have both ends as a bar with a roof between them. i've always wanted to do that. Maybe they'd go for this in somewhere like Palm Jumeirah in Dubai? http://www.thepalm.ae/

[SchoonerRat]

I thought you were about to give me a broadside! So I'm surprised when you say "Carin must be saved. They just aren't making any new 100 year old classic yachts." With respect, she's only 71 years old. I was just thinking...if she were rotten to the core as my eminent friend suggests, perhaps she could be turned into a restaurant? Cut her in two - like a cross-section - and have both ends as a bar with a roof between them. i've always wanted to do that. Maybe they'd go for this in somewhere like Palm Jumeirah in Dubai? http://www.thepalm.ae/
Now I am going to give you a broadside!

A RESTAURANT?????

I couldn't think of a worse way to preserve her----strike that. I could actually think of a lot of worse ways, but a restaurant!!!

Let's put a spa and steam room in the showers at Auschwitz.

PLEASE---Tell me you were kidding!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

So what we seem to come down to is that the boat was commandeered by the British Army in 1945 and used for odd jobs on the Rhine, during which time she may have been used for a Royal Visit.

As to her present state, I see nothing that a gallon of paraffin would not cure. I don't see any reason to preserve this boat - there are other similar boats around the place without the associations of this one.

[Lew Barrett]

Andrew's taking it from one perspective, mine is another. From my seat there isn't a photo in the current group that allows one to read the condition of the hull in respect to hog. In fact, the rub rail is hardly fair, but admittedly it's more wavy than droopy. The only thumbnail that might have helped won't expand for me (the side view in Wally World) but I'm not here to argue if she's hogged or not. Fine if she's not. But, why do you suppose they sheathed her? The red discoloration on the hull is what I read as blood, but I agree it looks more like schmutz at second glance. Refastening a boat of this size is hardly a trifle to be waved away, though.
As for no rot....without a current survey, that's the presumption. Unlike American jurisprudence, with old boats guilt is assumed before innocence. That there is rot is a safe bet on a 70 year old boat left out without care, and more likely on one that's been sheathed as a remedy. That is the normal circumstance. They rot, we fix. But no doubt she's a well built unit. Only the best for Fatty, I'm sure.
Maybe there's something you know specific to her which I don't? I'm always eager to be informed where I am lacking. And I tend to go off sometimes. But this one looks like trouble to me that $500K won't cure. Especially if those obsolete Mercedes are stuck and you have a yen to keep them.

If you can pull this boat together for $500K, you might then be well advised to take a crack at her but I think you'd be in for ten times that amount, or something closer to it, than the proposed sum.
Seawortiness is a much used term that I usually avoid, as it is too often relative.

[Lew Barrett]

.

When aboard Gröte Beer in my youth, I was overwhelmed by the intricate carvings, the acres of varnish and the evidence of superb craftsmanship everywhere I looked. I wanted to forget----but even without the Nazi memorabilia I had cold chills running up and down my spine. It felt like a tribute to Adolf and his crew, even though I was certain that it was not meant to be.

Every thing I've ever heard or read about her indicates either that she was never actually used by her intended masters, or that she was never actually built for them in the first place. I think any Nazi bits you might have seen on board were placed there after the fact to support the myth rather than in proof of it. Glad to have you aboard, lantsman.

[SchoonerRat]

Every thing I've ever heard or read about her indicates either that she was never actually used by her intended masters, or that she was never actually built for them in the first place. I think any Nazi bits you might have seen on board were placed there after the fact to support the myth rather than in proof of it. Glad to have you aboard, lantsman.
The word I used to hear was that Göring was never on the boat when she was out, but did occasionally visit her. I heard rumors of pics of him aboard, but never saw any.

As for Carin, I didn't look at her pics very closely at first. Yes, there comes a time when you need to pull the plug. Carin might be there. I just wanted to put my 2¢ in for saving her because she's a boat, not abandoning her because of her past.

[Lew Barrett]

This thread's probably nearing some sort of natural end, but you can't save 'em all. My view is that no matter how well intentioned, there will be those that see the Carin as something of a monument, especially since her association is so closely fixed to swine. In some cases the object and the history become somewhat inseparable. I expect this to be one of those cases. Very easy to misunderstand the intent of the restorers. There are plenty of very worthy projects in the world; boats, and historical sites if that's one's interest, and human needs if one thinks just a bit more on the subject. Tainted history? Sure. There's tainted history, or there wouldn't be neo-Nazis, glorifiers of a past so vile as to defy logic.

I'll make another argument based on lore, perhaps one you know. One of the (possibly apocryphal) stories that goes around about Grote Beer is that she was built by Dutchmen taking their damn sweet time. They reckoned the longer they were on the job, the more secure their lives would be as nobody knew what Grosser Hermann had in store for them once the boat was finished. Hence, the plan was to never finish her, just keeping adorning her and adding more filigree until, in the end, the war would be over. A form of job security
that kept them busy, fed and alive during the conflict. If true, it could be said that the Dutch boat is a monument to courage, and a certain form of patriotic sabotage, whereas Carin is simply a monument to wealth, greed and corruption.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

After a couple of years in that climate, without careful attention to the antifouling, there won't be much boat left.

[Lew Barrett]

After a couple of years in that climate, without careful attention to the antifouling, there won't be much boat left.

Bingo.

[Metronicity]

So what we seem to come down to is that the boat was commandeered by the British Army in 1945 and used for odd jobs on the Rhine, during which time she may have been used for a Royal Visit.

Not quite. Seems it was used for about nine years by the Royal Family - pre Brittania. At least that's what this German magazine extract seems to say - "...in 1945 became part of the Royal Navy - renamed the "Royal Albert" - the flagship of the British fleet of the Rhine. In 1952 the boat was renamed "Prince Charles". She steamed from Krefeld for the state visit to Switzerland in 1955 and was even command ship of the British at the first joint NATO maneuvers "Cordon Bleu". Then came Adenauer to the evening reception on Göring's yacht. Regularly, she was used by the Royal Family. The former chef recalls that the Royals used to fly to Frankfurt and then drive by Rolls-Royce to Wiesbaden-Schierstein where they could go by boat up the Rhine to Heidelberg or down to Holland. Prince Charles, as a boy, was kept busy peeling potatoes.

[Jay Greer]

I was the maintenance skipper on "Gröte Beer" for several years in the late sixties. The boat had no items aboard that would have tied her to Goering or the Nazi Regeim. The Dutch so hated Goering that they managed to delay completion of the boat until after the end of WWII.
That was one reason for the elaborate carvings as they ate up time.
Jay

[martin schulz]

...unaware that one of them had been use by the Nazi regime aas their anthem "Deutchland uber alles" (excuse my bad German).

Ehhh...if its the tune you are talking about it is still the same tune. The lyrics to the tune however, although they haven't changed are nowadays sung differently, since only the lyrics of the 3 verse "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" instead of "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" are sung.

[Metronicity]

Check this out - an absolutely fascinating report of Hitler's Yacht - the 443 foot Aviso Grille - built 1934 - largest yacht afloat at that time.

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/AVISO%20GRILLE.htm

This one was bought by an Eqyptian too but ended up in New York as an attraction before being sold for scrap. But the tender still survives.

[martin schulz]

I didn't want to participate in the Göring discussion, because there is too much gossip involved.

As to the Aviso GRILLE!

1st. There is no Hitler's Yacht!

The GRILLE was built as State-Yacht for ceremonial circumstances. Very shortly after the built she was commissioned as armed merchant cruiser and used as minelayer. Then 1942 she was used as staff-ship for the U-boot Waffe.

After the war she was confiscated by the British navy, sold to the millionaire George Adria in 1946 who used her for private cruises. She was scraped 1951 in the USA.

http://www.klaus-kramer.de/Schiff/Staatsyacht/Deutschland/GRILLE%20III/P000121x.jpg

[Metronicity]

Can't confirm on the authenticity of anything currently for sale. A lot of the story around it seems correct, see for instance...Anyway, to me it seems the boat has a lot of bad carma if there is such a thing at all.

The boat was bought in the 70's by a German reporter called Heidemann who thought he could sell it on with profit but nobody wanted the boat. On the restauration, he seriously indebted himself. Eventually in the early 80's he came across what he believed were the Hitler diaries (they were forged). He made a profit out of acquiring them for the magazine he worked for. They were printed in that magazine over several issues, one of the foremost German magazines at that time. Eventually, it was discovered that they were forgeries. He lost his job and the Magazine lost about all the credibility it had had. From what I found, today, Mr. Heidemann is on social security. No idea if all yardbills were payed then (early 80's / late 70's.)

To own a boat like that you have to be pretty well off and to be pretty well off, you need good business contacts. Now, for most people who rely on good business contacts, the strong symbolism of the vessels history will destroy a lot of these good contacts. I guess that is more or less why people steer clear of the boat. An institution of one of the 4 WWII allies could buy it for display, but for most individuals, it's pure bad carma, especially as it is far too big to hide and far too well known to stay unrecognized for long wherever it is.

Well you're not adding anything new to the discussion are you? Just re-hashing what I originally posted. Albeit with bad spelling and punctuation. One wonders whether you bothered to follow the link and read it at all. If you had, you would have discovered that no he hasn't paid the €150k shipyard bill. As for the bad "carma" as you put it...I guess you wouldn't buy a Mercedes-Benz that had been owned by a Nazi either. Or a Cranach painting.

Pretty ironic that the British Royals (Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family) didn't have a problem with the boat's provenance.

[Metronicity]

As to the Aviso GRILLE! 1st. There is no Hitler's Yacht!

The GRILLE was built as State-Yacht for ceremonial circumstances. Very shortly after the built she was commissioned as armed merchant cruiser and used as minelayer. Then 1942 she was used as staff-ship for the U-boot Waffe.

After the war she was confiscated by the British navy, sold to the millionaire George Adria in 1946 who used her for private cruises. She was scraped 1951 in the USA.


Well yes...and no. Hitler frequently referred to her as my ship. As did others. Commonly. When Hitler's army invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, he sent a message ordering that his ship be prepared for combat. Other contemporary reports have people referring to the vessel as Hitler's ship.

As I said in my earlier post she was scrapped in the U.S. in 1951. A pity. Another beautiful ship gone.

[Metronicity]

...Carinhall is landlocked, there may be logs saying that the boat voyaged to and from the place, but they are not a good reason to buy the boat. .........
Either you have a really amazing boat here, amazing because it travels on the hard well enough to host parties at landlocked loactions and participate in military exercises with M48 tanks.


Landlocked eh? Here's a rough translation from a German page on the landlocked Carinhall -

Opposite the camping site "Voigtwiese" (Joachimsthal), was the wooden boathouse of the reich marshal Hermann Goering, which he established for his yacht "Carin II" in the year 1938. Of the boathouse and the bar remains today the piles which rise up at the landing place of today's yacht club "Schorfheide" out of the water. The Carin II got through the Second World War unharmed and was constantly guarded by three soldiers. Afterwards it came into the possession of the English Royal Family and was renamed "Prince Charles".

From http://www.cet-berlin.com/lake.htm

The Werbellinsee is connected to the German waterways via the Oder-Havel-Canal, the historic Finow Canal and the Werbellin Canal. The Carin II had a demountable wheelhouse and folding mast to get through the canal system.