Which sail plans do best?

[jtrieck]

Can someone give me a quick synopsis of the various advantages of each type of sail plan? What is best on reach, on run, windward, etc...? What is the generally accepted "best compromise" for cruising couples (no crew) in a sub 40' sailboat, not intended for racing?

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I don't think there is a "best compromise" in any aspect of boat design and because I'm so ignorant of the topic I am truely interested to see how this thread plays out. I do not expect it to be pretty.

[Tom Hunter]

The monohull speed records for larger vessels are held by schooners.
http://www.t-ring.co.nz/images/L_MARI-CHA-IV.jpg

But under 40' you don't need to split the rig like that, you do it because you want to.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/2467110977_b23e0a9e0e_b.jpg


The boats that finish races fastest in your size range are Marconi rigged sloops

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2051/2467111571_99df5f6706_b.jpg


But a yawl can be a perfect combination of beauty, performance and easy handling because the sails are smaller:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3044/2467936672_197c2a76e3_b.jpg

Gaff rig performs better off the wind than Marconi, and has certain other advantages if you want to slow down, speed up or otherwise have a lot of control using your sails. Most people turn on the engine in those circumstances, so that is unlikely to be an issue for you.

Marconi point higher, and in theory it has fewer strings. On race boats this theory goes straight to hell, designers and skippers keep adding small strings to allow more and more tweaking of the rig.

Sail size, your own level of fitness, and the mechanical help you have on board all matter as well. This is a 548 square foot main:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2467138655_6e89bc3621_b.jpg

That is near the limit of what a fit man can handle using blocks and tackle. If you are older, or work a desk job and don't get tons of exercise you want either smaller sails or winches or both. That is one of the nice things about the yawl, nothing is very large, so it is more easily managed. Really big sails can be very intimidating for a smaller woman, and with good reason. Just something to keep in mind.

[jtrieck]

What about a ketch?

[Tom Hunter]

I didn't have a good picture of a ketch :D but the advantages and disadvantages are similar to those of yawls. The differences are in the details and get down to the level of individual boat design.

You might do a thread search there are some good discussions of this subject.

I also have no experience with lugsails, square sails, or junk rig, and my lateen experience is all on Sunfishes. There is still a lot to say on the question.

Considering a Ketch? if you post a photo there maybe someone who has sailed the boat and can tell you a lot more.

[SchoonerRat]

Tom covered things pretty well.

Split the rig and you improve downhill performance while pointing ability suffers. On a ketch or especially a yawl, the mizzen is too small to really give you much power, but adds greatly to the boats handling. On a schooner, you have 2 sticks that are both shorter than the stick would be on a comparable sloop or cutter. Lots of smaller sails are easier to handle than a few bigger ones. If you add gaffs, you add sail area, and you add it low where it has less effect on heeling. But you also add significant windage with the extra rigging and spar. Small boats (less than 40') don't seem to work well with a schooner rig, and much smaller than that should also rule out a ketch or yawl. I don't know the physics behind this, but my experience confirms this. The extra stick also tends to get in the way on a smaller deck.

I know the original question was about performance, but I feel it necessary to add that there is nothing more beautiful than a full rigged ship (see thread on Flying Cloud). I don't suggest trying this on a boat much less than 100', but the beauty of a schooner under full sail is close, and much more practical.

I don't have much experience with lugs or lateens, so take these comments with a grain of salt. The performance of these rigs doesn't seem to be on a par with other rigs. Any advantages seem to be in sail handling, cost, and single handing ability. The best reason I can see for using these rigs is to maintain the classic beauty of a classic design. Again, my experience here is limited. Somebody please set me straight if I'm wrong.

[Paul Pless]

I don't have much experience with lugs or lateens, so take these comments with a grain of salt. The performance of these rigs doesn't seem to be on a par with other rigs. Any advantages seem to be in sail handling, cost, and single handing ability. The best reason I can see for using these rigs is to maintain the classic beauty of a classic design. Again, my experience here is limited. Somebody please set me straight if I'm wrong.I'm not sure either, though some argue that lug rigged boats can be exceptional weatherly. I find some of them to be pretty as well, especially the French Luggers.

http://heartofbrittany.com/assets/sea_boats/paimpol4.jpg

[John B]

What Tom said. very well put.

What is the generally accepted "best compromise" for cruising couples (no crew) in a sub 40' sailboat, not intended for racing?

There are reasons for the way rig evolution has selected out the bermudan. Easily handled and easily expandable for light air. So for sub 40 ft cruising either sloop or cutter head ( or detachable inner forestay).
About 500 ft is the single biggest sail you want to handle by yourself in a seaway. I find 600 too much in a lot of conditions on our gaff boat but then we'd cruise with a reef to get back to the 500.
On the berm. ketch its all a doddle because of the split areas although the big headsail at 600ish is reserved for a bit of laid back racing. Its just too big physically. 350 to 400 ft is pretty easy to look after in a single sail.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

You might want to read "Voyage of the Liberdade".

[David G]

I thought Mr. Hunter did a yeoman's job of outlining the basics. For a bit more detail, you might pick up a copy of Phil Bolger book, "103 Sailing Rigs".

For more on lug rigs, see Michael Storer's site:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/tradrigperformance.html

[johnw]

It helps if you can make the sails all self tacking, of course, and a lot of modern boats have such big jibs, on a 40 footer you don't want to carry the sail bag full of cloth far by yourself. Bermuda ketch is my favorite for single handing.

[John B]

Me too.:D
At 45 ft, I don't think I'd want Riada if she was sloop.

The modern short boom gaffers like The Gartside and Burnett boats would do very well. Lark and Curlew have similar aspect rigs and they've done all sorts of miles.

[jtrieck]

Great pictures! They make it easy to know what rigs y'all are talking about.

I really appreciate the thoughts on the relative merits of each rig.

If one were sailing where the prevailing winds were most likely either directly behind or directly ahead, is there a sail plan that is best suited to that scenario? Obviously, the best sail for a directly ahead would probably be a motor....

[Tom Hunter]

If you are going to sail to windward a lot then the marconi sloop is going to have substantial advantage over the other rigs mentioned.

But this: "Obviously, the best sail for a directly ahead would probably be a motor...." Is absolutely true.

I hate motoring, but when you gotta get the kids and guests home and home is where the wind is coming from it can be the best option. It is also a good option when there is no wind at all.

One of my biggest suprises when I got my first large sailboat was how much I learned about motors :rolleyes:.

In Yacht Cruising (1927) Claude Worth discusses the difference in rigs between the US East Coast, which loved schooners in those days, and England which liked ketches and cutters. He theorized it was the difference in prevailing winds that caused this, the English often needed to beat from place to place, the Americans were reaching more often.

[johnw]

When I was a kid my dad owned a ketch, which we raced against a fleet otherwise composed of sloops. We tended to finish in the middle to the back of the fleet. Then we had a series of three races, two of which featured long reaches. We won in a walk, and the handicapper changed our rating. Yeah, it's sloops for windward-leeward work, if you're racing.

[John B]

Mizzen staysail on a ketch( reaching) is one of those sails that punches above its weight for some reason.IMO, Something like 80% of the effectiveness of a gennaker but with much less trouble.Very very easy to set and drop ,and right in the cockpit.

[SchoonerRat]

Mizzen staysail on a ketch( reaching) is one of those sails that punches above its weight for some reason.IMO, Something like 80% of the effectiveness of a gennaker but with much less trouble.Very very easy to set and drop ,and right in the cockpit.
Mizzen staysail will give you a nice little punch, but nuthin' like the right hook you get from a Gollywobbler on a big schooner. A little tougher to set and drop, but not much.

Golly has the luff attached to the foremast, throat at the fore truck, peak at the main truck and it sheets to the stern quarter. Big sail, lotta power. It's a bit of a pain but you can even tack one if you have to. Gollys seem to work best when the foremast is nearly as tall as the mainmast. My evil alter ego used to love to sail over the top of an unsuspecting 40 or 50 footer and "schooner eclipse" them. You cast a big shadow with a rig like that. Another consideration is that the wind up high is faster than the wind on deck. Square shaped sail has more area up high than a triangle to take advantage of that extra power. When you bear off the wind, extra sail area is more significant than upwind when the efficiency of a high aspect ratio sail is more significant.

Boats with a large difference between mast heights seem to go better to weather. Kelpies foremast is so short that the line up the forestay almost seems to continue straight up her triatic, and she seems to fly to windward---at least for a schooner, which admittedly ain't that great. She was generally acknowledged to be the fastest schooner on the Left Coast, and I think she still is.

And besides------I don't know if I've mentioned this here before, but schooners are REAL pretty!

[Paul Pless]

Man SchoonerRat!, that's some mean koolaide you serve there.:D

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Personally I like 2 masts on small boat rigs too despite the conventional wisdom thatthey don't make sense untill a boat hits 40 feet.

Maybe not so much a good idea on a cabined boat, but very nice on small open cockpit boats of 16-20 feet.

By separating the coe between the sails you greatly increase the sail balance capabilities, You spread your sail outward as opposed to upward allowing shorter masts and are able to have unstayed masts that make set up and tear down more pleasant without the spaghetti of standing rigging.

Mizzen sails hardened up leaves you hove to niceley to take a break and sort things out aboard a small boat before continuing.

On a small Yawl rigged boat you can run under jib and mizzen alone as the wind freshens, nicely reefed and nicely balanced.

Yep, I think a divided rig, has some decided benefits for a small boat too.

[Noah]

I think a lot of it depends on the boat, the design and the construction. Modern sailboats are very different than the classics - and it's not just looks. More and more the sloop rig makes sense. Today's designs are built lighter and stronger, and have more righting moment to keep them upright. That means you can carry more sail longer, which eliminates some of the benefits of a split rig.

Putting an efficient sloop rig on a boat with a full keel won't see a huge performance increase over a more traditional rig because you just aren't generating the underwater lift and drive that modern foils will give you.

With a modern sailboat (fin keel - spade rudder)the windward performance will be dramatically different between rigs - the efficient sloop rig will be much more "windwardly" than anything else.

Off the wind it really depends on the boat and your sails. My boat is a sloop, and I would be happy to race any of you on a reach - especially using my Asymmetrical Spinnaker (it's only 1700 sq ft).

I'm not saying traditional sail plans have no place in boats - they do, but they will have very specific uses on certain types of boats for specific conditions.

One thing that is fun to watch is the evolution of "modern gaff rigs" IE square top mains. They are now using huge battens to make more efficiency marconi mainsails.

I have no problem single handing my sloop with 850sqft of sail - 500 in the main and the rest in the jib. I'm improving the controls this year, but even with the old system had no trouble.

[kenjamin]

Although I am just beginning to learn how to sail the yawl rig on my Caledonia Yawl, I already appreciate the mizzen. Last weekend three of us were out in a very stiff breeze with the rail buried and booking to windward and the helm was still pretty light. We were sailing at a place where the boat ramp was at the end of a very long canal with large houses all along both sides of the canal. We had gotten towed out by our photo/chase boat but when we came in, we were on our own. In the canal there seemed to be no wind at all. The sails were just kind of hanging there after we entered the canal. We were able to go wing and wing with the mizzen and the main and the jib didn't seem to be doing much of anything. Amazingly we sailed the entire length of the canal just ghosting along. As we passed our photographer's house with him on the dock we were able to have a short conversation with him about maybe adding more ballast to Xena, my CY. I've heard of this phenomenon of ghosting along with no apparent wind with a CY, but I had never experienced it – super groovy!!!! We arrived at the boat landing basin at the end of the canal where there was more wind but we had dropped the main and the jib. We sheeted in the mizzen and put a man on the oars and Xena waited very politely for her turn at the ramp. When it was our turn, I uncleated the mizzen, gave it some slack, our oarsman pulled a few strokes on one of the oars to get us pointed correctly and we sailed very neatly to the ramp under mizzen alone – almost like I knew what I was doing!:o

[alkorn]

For trailered boats, split rigs have an advantage in that two shorter masts are easier to step/unstep than one longer mast. For stayed rigs some of the advantage is lost in the time required to set up the stays for two masts.

[SchoonerRat]

Personally I like 2 masts on small boat rigs too despite the conventional wisdom thatthey don't make sense untill a boat hits 40 feet.
I, also, love split rigs on small boats, but I try not to spit in the face of conventional wisdom. The fact that a schooner rig doesn't work as good as a sloop or cutter is no reason not to rig a 33 foot schooner. Just another fact to consider in making the choice. I also love traditional design and construction, but I would probably choose turnbuckles over deadeyes for any boat I built. Modern full batten marconi rigs are borrowing some concepts from the classics and de-evolving toward a much more efficient version of the gaff rig.

Back in my delivery days, I wouldn't think twice about single handing a staysail schooner as big as 65' on deck. Don't tell the Coasties, but I even single handed Kelpie on a charter. I was pretty winded after setting main, mainstaysail, forestaysail, and jib in 10 minutes; so I left the rest of the rags in the sail locker. A comparably sized sloop or cutter was a different story. Even on a 40 footer, when alone, I would always shorten sail earlier, think twice before changing to the big jenny.

[Kaa]

Modern sailboats are very different than the classics - and it's not just looks. More and more the sloop rig makes sense.

That might be a case of co-evolution. The hull/foils are designed with the expectation that there will be a marconi rig on top.

I'm not saying traditional sail plans have no place in boats - they do, but they will have very specific uses on certain types of boats for specific conditions.

Isn't that true for all rigs? The marconi sloop has its advantages, to be sure, and it is the "default" rig for most modern designs (of reasonable length, of course) -- but I'm not ready to pronounce it the be-all end-all of sail rigs. If you're not racing and don't attach much importance to pointing high, it loses some of its charm, for example.

Kaa

[David W Pratt]

Truth is 30', gaff rigged, with a 300+ sq ft main whose boom overhangs the transom, about another 300+ in the jib and staysail.
Very controlable, versatile, fast, weatherly, and romantic to look at.
She will sail up wind without a hand on the unlashed tiller.
I'm 60, when the main gets hard to trim, it is time to reef.
I'm happy.