Suitability of Grey Seal for open water??

[philosophisticat]

I have half-decided to build Grey Seal, full-keel version, probably gunter rig. The tipping point on the decision is her suitability for open water. My plan is to sail her across Gulf Stream from Fla to Bahamas (solo or with one other), then south through Caribbean a bit. Might also sail her from Annapolis to Nantucket.

Is she really up to this, or wd you salt-encrusted plank-benders suggest I look at other plans for my little cruiser?

Any and all thoughts welcome, partic from anyone who has actually taken Grey Seal to sea.

[StevenBauer]

Iain Oughtred says the centerboard version would be better for open water. It would certainly be better for the Bahamas. I say go for it!


Steven

[philosophisticat]

I am aware of Oughtred's comments about the CB version, but thanks for the observation. I read an account somewhere that his judgment about this is based largely on an unpleasant personal experience in another vessel. From a design perspective, i just can't see it. More weight down low where it belongs makes sense to me. Though it is Oughtred's boat, I cannot see why this principle wd apparently apply to all other boats but the Grey Seal. I respectfully discount the designer's estimation about the relative seaworthiness of the two versions.

I just wonder: can it really take an ugly sea?

[paladin]

When you're young, stupid, invincible and just learning about sailing, and you survive in a Thunderbird sloop.....I would have no qualms about Grey Seal.....

[shamus]

I think it depends more on you than the boat. She's a seaworthy shape- but you'd want the glue mixed with care. I've only been out of sight of land once, and I was impressed by the fact that I was looking much more prone to be the weak link than the boat. You get tired. Re the ballast question, I noticed some unballasted sea birds looking very comfortable sitting on the water going up and down with the sea.

[Woxbox]

I was impressed by the fact that I was looking much more prone to be the weak link than the boat.


A most excellent point. Prepping yourself and the boat for the trip are just as important as picking an able design, which the Grey Seal sure looks like to me. Some form of self steering, ability to heave to, tools and spares on board to fix most anything that might go wrong. A plan if everything does go wrong. Those are just as important and sometimes get overlooked.

[chuckm]

the ability to "heave to". Can smaller rudders with a metal shaft like design, like to one that is seen on Gerts active post right now, Would that be a concern in a rough sea? Its rare to get two post that relate to one another, and Yawl rig with Mizzen, as seen on Gert's post, is not only functional but very attractive. But it requires a mechanical tiller, Will that be a concern when heaving to, with your rudder bound down. I really do not know.

[philosophisticat]

When you're young, stupid, invincible and just learning about sailing, and you survive in a Thunderbird sloop.....I would have no qualms about Grey Seal.....

Well, I'm not so young, but at least have maintained some awareness of my invincible stupidity.

Really am more interested in the the boat's capabilities rather than my own. Interesting sail calculator that you guys have probably alreay hit, but if not, check out: http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

According to this, the Grey Seal (full keel) is just under the "magic" 2.0 capsize ratio. the motion comfort number is uncomfortably low compared to other cruising sailboats, but what wd you expect for a 4,000# boat? Another interesting calculation is that the boat requires only 525# to immerse her 1 inch -- a feature that will limit the number of crew and provisions.

The comments about rudder size and strength potentially affecting ability to heave to has me wondering. Wd love to hear from someone who has sailed GS in rough conditions. Dunno about the yawl idea tho -- often a mizzen precludes the option of a self-steering vane; i'm sure it wd on a boat of this length.

[paladin]

I was putting the Grey Seal in the same category as my old Thunderbird......and I survived.....I don't think these boats were designed with heavy offshore cruising in mind, so taking the construction methodology and your personal sailing experience in mind, I would proceed with caution....
as mentioned, the load carrying capacity is limited, and when venturing offshore you will have requirements for subsistence staples, and survival gear.....
and looking back....I was a much more brave individual at 30 years old than I am at 68.....or a bit weak between the ears, your choice....

[philosophisticat]

Ah, I see . . . and i can empathize wholeheartedly. when i think about the close cars i had in cars as a teenager, it makes me shudder.

Your mention of the T-bird brings to mind what i'm really after here: is the Seal heavily enough built for much beyond coastal cruising? If you're dinking around from one anchorage to another, you can be a little more selective about the weather. But if you're at sea when it kicks up, you'll feel a lot better in an old T-bird than a new smart car, I wd think.

[Woxbox]

Philosophistocat -- So what are your limits as far as boat size, time to build it, budget, etc? I assumed you picked Grey Seal as the biggest sort of boat you wanted to put together. If a 25 or 28 footer is manageable, then that opens up lots more possibilities. That load/inch comes directly from the beam and length of the boat. Being a double ender, it's a bit lower for Grey Seal.

If you dig back in the archives here, there are discussions about boats under 20 feet, even under 15 feet, that some would contemplate setting offshore in. Compared to a 14 footer, Grey Seal is a tanker.

The consensus in these discussions seems to be that something around 28 to 32 feet is the optimum solo cruiser -- room for stores, manageable by a single person, and not cheap but not out of reach for the determined sailor, either. But if that's too much boat, what is your upper limit?

[philosophisticat]

Budget is not so much an issue. Time is, alas, and I do not want to bite off more boat than i can reasonably hope to finish within my time frame -- about 5 yrs, working wkends and eves, sparing time for occasional days and wkends to keep together some semblance of a relationship. I suppose I cd go larger (in fact, i wd love to build a larger boat), but the time for completion seems to grow geometrically with an increase in length or displacemt. Tho Grey Seal's 22 feet gives me a little less boat than i wd like, her plywood lapstrake construction seems within the short grasp of my carpentry skills. I was also wooed by the few internet pics of her i've been able to get hold of -- they give me a deep-in-my-bones ache I haven't had since i was in my young twenties dreaming of supermodels. Still, i haven't committed to her yet, and I continue to surf boat-plan porn whenever I get a few spare mins. I think i have seen some of the older threads you've referred to, and think i will go back to those.

Any suggestions/comments/thread referrals are welcome.

- john

[Rigadog]

How about Reuel Parker's 28 foot pilot schooner. Probably less complex to build (Full lofting templates available I think), also of plywood lapstrake,. That's a boat you could go anywhere in. And it looks way cool.

[paladin]

For comparison....I worked at a full time job, carried 8 hours at a local university, started and finished a 31 foot Brown Searunner trimaran in less than 11 months, launched it and went sailing......
again....when working a full time job, built a 38 foot Bruce Roberts offshore 38 in about 14 months with a 5 day a week thai woodworker helper....he used hand tools, I used power tools available through Rears and sawbuck...in both cases I was essentially single....I would suggest that something by John Welsford might be something to look at.....one of his boats was just launched for an around the world trip......
another possibility...if money is not a problem.....have the boat built in Thailand and shipped to U.S.....take the labor hours calculated by the designer....double them, add the cost of materials and labor at $4 an hour....and you can't work that cheeeeep....

[gert]

The CB versions center board weighs 800 lbs and puts this GS' draft higher (deeper?) than the keel version; this may make a bit of difference to the original question.

[philosophisticat]

Rigadog - have read Parker's book (or most of it), v much like (conceptually, anyway) his cold-molding of plywood over tongue-in-groove layer. his website describes the 28' pilot schooner as "lapstrake cold-molded plywood," which leaves a bit much to my imagination -- is the final lapstrake layer planked over diagonally laid planks beneath? I dunno, but for 28' i might want a bit more headroom and maybe something with a more conventional keel with a bit o the forefoot cut away. her underbody is an acquired taste perhaps; i guess i cut my teeth on something else.

Paladin: holiest of holy cows, man! i cannot imagine that sort of efficiency . . . if you cd accomplish all that in such a short span, you shd be paid for teaching life managemt, not giving away your boat-building opinions for free! as far as hiring others to do the work, i will pass on that bit o sage advice. the process and activity of building the boat is at least half the point for me, as i am sure all here understand . . .

Gert: i see what you are saying. the CB version has 11" more draft, tho from the study plans, it does not look like there's much lateral surface (or weight) actually below the line of the keel version. i wd expect the CB version to experience less leeway when pointing, tho, because you're likely to have a more effective foil down there. i noticed from other threads that you are building a G Seal; where do you plan to sail her?


-john

[gert]

http://www.panorama-map.com/panoramamap/zoomzone/zdes.jpeg

[Tanbark Spanker]

"If it is strong, it will cruise." Advise from a small boat circumnavigator.

[philosophisticat]

Gert: o my! man, o man, o man, o man! grey seal paradise!

[andrewe]

Grey Seal is I.O.´s take on the folkboat, a notably seaworthy design. Hasler´s `Jester´, a junk rigged FB, took part in virtually every transalantic single handed race. ( yes I know there were two boats, but the first was not lost in the race)
If you want a look at boats in the 20/30 ft range that people consider good for offshore, Google Jester Challange. Not much wood there, but an idea of styles.
If 22ft is the most boat you want to build, GS is as capable as any and you will never tire of looking at her.
Andrew

[Woxbox]

Here's food for thought: Bolger intended his Seabird '86 to be a capable cruiser. The idea was to rethink the requirements of the original Seabird. It's 23' and 4100 pounds.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ca.geocities.com/nohnpages/GaffRig.GIF&imgrefurl=http://ca.geocities.com/nohnpages/original.html&h=612&w=500&sz=10&hl=en&start=22&um=1&tbnid=qde0ENL58J0-oM:&tbnh=136&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbolger%2Bseabird%26start%3D20%26ndsp% 3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-42,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN