Small sailing canoe

[Matt Middleton]

Anybody have an opinion on Macnaughton's Lake Sailor? See http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/Lake_Sailor.htm). I'm trying to compare it with the Macgregor by Oughtred (see http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400%2D080) as my next project.

Does anyone have experience with either of these, or know of any other similar designs out there?

Thanks!
Matt

[John B in ID]

Still no replies. Too bad! I was looking forward to following this thread. Could it be that no one has yet built Nacnaughton's Lake Sailor?

Matt, you might ask this question of the "Canoe Sailing" forum of the Wooden Canoe Heritage Assn. A small flock of avid canoe sailors hover over that pond from time to time.
http://forums.wcha.org/forumdisplay.php?f=10

[Pernicious Atavist]

Better yet, why don't you post your inquiry in Canoe Sailing Magazine's Rudder Forum? http://canoesailingmagazine.com/index.php/RUDDER-FORUM/
We have lots of folks there who can help!

[Pernicious Atavist]

Also..... http://canoesailingmagazine.com/index.php/Issue-2/Hugh-Horton-and-Bufflehead.html

[Bruce Taylor]

Well, I looked at the Macnaughton link, and read the text, and I find the boat quite unimpressive.

With such a tiny sail area -- less than 33 sq. ft. in all -- you can expect to do a fair bit of paddling. However, the boat is far too beamy ( 3' 5" on a hull that measures less than 12' on the waterline!) to allow comfortable use of a double-paddle in the customary seated position. Since you will have to kneel to propel this little tub, you might reasonably expect to use a single paddle (although the designers, for reasons that are not clear, recommend the use of a double-paddle from the kneeling position). As long as you're kneeling, however, you can forget about controlling the rudder with foot pedals -- the steering gear will simply flap around behind you, creating more drag on a hull that already seems sufficiently slow (exactly how much resistance the hull would have is difficult to say, since the info. given on the website does not include a linesplan). No wonder the designers suggest equipping the thing with a trolling motor!

The decision to keep CE (and overall sail area) low is reasonable, in an unballasted canoe that is not meant to be sailed from the deck position. However, even Robert Baker's Piccolo (an open canoe of comparable length and nearly one foot less beam) carries 53 sq. ft., and having sailed one for a number of years I can report that, while that design has a few flaws, being "overpowered" is not among them (the mizzen is a cute little handkerchief that provides roughly enough drive to compensate for the weight of the spars that hold it aloft. ;) )

If I were to build another one of these things (and I intend to, one of these days) I'd resurrect a design form the glory-days of the sailing canoe -- probably an unballasted deck-sailer, like Vesper or Notus. The revived 16-30s (like the one Dan Miller built) are pretty interesting, too.

http://www.enter.net/~skimmer/16-30.html

[skuthorp]

Here's the thread that started Ed on the Sailing Canoe mag, and I thoroughly reccommend it too.
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70488&highlight=Outred+Mcgreggor
There have been many threads on this subject, some on Macks started by me too. Have a fossick in the search engine. Plenty of good advice.

[Peter Belenky]

Another interesting design is Michael Storer's Beth:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/beth.html

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/Beth8.jpg

Ultimately simple (except for the classic rig), light, and high-performance. I'd be interested to know how it compares with the revived 16x30:

http://www.enter.net/~skimmer/images/ABM_1934_sm.jpg

The fundamental difference is that the flat-bottomed Beth is designed for deck sitting and reefing to maintain stability, while the shallow-v 16x30 has a standing rig and a sliding seat.

[Matt Middleton]

Wow - I thought this thread was dead and gone, and now I come back to find it actually recieved responses.

Thanks for the links - I will explore them as I have time. I have seen these other designs before, but for some reason or other have found a reason to discount them for my purposes. I have also been made aware of other forums in the past, but having limited time, it was enough effort keeping up with this one. Now that my desire for a sailing canoe has been rekindled, maybe I'll venture over and establish a presence on some other forums as well.

As for the critique on Macnaughton's design, it sort of reinforces my suspicions. Another of my main concerns is cockpit size - I'd like to accomodate 2 people, and I have doubts about this design's ability to meet that requirement. I'm trying to visualize a 6' x 2' rectangle, and imagining two people sitting in that area for an hour or two at a time... Anyways, I emailed the designer about this, but have not recieved a response. The sailplan could be changed, but you are correct about paddling - it would be awkward at best.

Maybe a stretched and narrowed version would do better in all regards, but then I'd be rapidly moving in the direction of:
If I were to build another one of these things (and I intend to, one of these days) I'd resurrect a design form the glory-days of the sailing canoe...

I have considered this, but my problem is in knowing which of these old designs has the performance and characteristics I'm after. I'd like to sail with 2 people (maybe 2.5 - kid coming soon), double paddling as an option would be great, and cartopping and storing like a kayak would be great too. I'm really just afer a ligt, small tub with which to get out on the water, but it has to look "right", other wise I may as well go buy an inner tube and and umbrella and save my time and money. The only other boat (besides IO's Mac) I could think of that remotely fits is Swallow Boats' Sandpiper, see http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=92&Itemid=94&pop=1&page=0, now discontinued, no plans available.

So anyhow, the search continues. Observations and suggestions always welcome.

Matt

[Lewisboats]

my own low-tech version of amas...plywood and noodles. 13 ft long, with a 30 in beam, flat bottomed and takes about a weekend to build the hull. Framing and amas another day, leeboard a day and rudder another. The sail is commercial so about $100.00 but it can be used on other hullls. If I were 35 lbs lighter it wouldn't be so down on the lines...but that is just fat ol' me!

http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Stuff/Sail/spirit4.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks/Images/CubCanuPics/Onthewater18.JPG
Original hull...ScoutCanu on the right.

[Bruce Taylor]

my problem is in knowing which of these old designs has the performance and characteristics I'm after.

Ione might be worth a look. Plans are in W. P. Stephens:

http://dragonflycanoe.com/stephens/

William Clements has built the boat. Perhaps he would be willing to discuss it's virtues and faults with you.

http://www.boatbldr.com/html/boats/ione.html

Eighteen feet might seem unnecessarily long...until you've tried to bundle two and a half people into a twelve-footer like Sandpiper. Those half people can really squirm around. ;)

I'd like to sail with 2 people (maybe 2.5 - kid coming soon)

Congrats! I'm not sure I'd be comfortable sailing a canoe with a baby on board (paddling is another story). Have you considered something with oars & a transom?

[Matt Middleton]

Hi Steve - Not my style of boat, but it sure looks lke fun.:) I like the sail - what design is it from?

Bruce - Thanks for the link. Looks like Ione would do the job in fine style, but I wonder how easy it is to double-paddle with a beam of 36". I have no problem with the length, so long as I can get it on and off the roof rack by myself. Rowing isn't out of the question, but I percieve boats with narrower beam as easier to load onto the roof rack alone. I could be wrong. And you are correct, I plan to use the boat without sails for family outings, at least until the young one is a little older. Heck, at the rate I build, he may be ready before the boat is.

I also just bought Gardner's Building Classic Small Craft, and the 15' x 2'7" St. lawrence skiff looks interesting. I wonder about its suitability for my intended use - maybe I'll start another thread.

And allow me to hijack my own thread. I've recently moved to a higher density metro area where storage space for trailered boats is scarce. This seems to be the case more and more - the average lot size gets smaller and smaller. Double paddle/ sailing canoes can be cartopped and stored hung from the garage ceiling or tucked under an outside eave. This seem like such a good solution to this growing concern. I'm always surprised we don't see them more. But I guess the appeal of a classic sailing canoe may be lost if attempted in swirled-color rotomolded polyethylene, so maybe I just answered my own question.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Matt, with your [increasing] need for crew space, you might want to consider an open canoe instead of a decked one. There are a lot of designs that would do you well. A couple of the lapstraked ones are sweet!
Single mast for ease of use, fewer lines, etc. Maybe a balanced lug sail or some such. An outrigger or two may contribute to bliss. Push/pull tiller.
See Dan Brown's article for some general ideas: http://canoesailingmagazine.com/index.php/Issue-2/Always-the-Sailing-Canoe.html

[Dan Miller]

As I was reading through the latest posts, I was starting to think about Ione too, but Bruce beat me to it... For a decked canoe, she would probably work well for you, but even built glued-lapstrake (as Pretty Jane, the canoe built by Bill Clements is), she's going to be a wee bit heavy for cartopping. One of those single-place Traillex trailers is just the ticket for it.

While you are perusing the W.P. Stephens stuff, also check out the "Tandem Canoe". 17' and 32" beam.

PA's suggestion of an open canoe is worth considering, also. Lots of old Old Towns and the like out there begging to be restored, and a fair number of them are rigged for sail.

[chrisk]

I'd be interested to know how it compares with the revived 16x30:

http://www.enter.net/%7Eskimmer/images/ABM_1934_sm.jpg

The fundamental difference is that the flat-bottomed Beth is designed for deck sitting and reefing to maintain stability, while the shallow-v 16x30 has a standing rig and a sliding seat.Are there plans available for a modern version of the 16x30 like this one? I'd kind of like to try something like that while I am still agile enough.

[Dan Miller]

Are there plans available for a modern version of the 16x30 like this one? I'd kind of like to try something like that while I am still agile enough.

Yes, we're putting the final edits to the plans and preparing a construction manual - all should be done early this summer. Contact me at dmiller@abm.org or John Summers at jsummers@abm.org for more details. Some more details are here: http://abm.org/canoe-sailing.asp

The plans are for the canoe shown in the above photo - that is Dan Sutherland sailing Stormy Skyes, the first prototype built to John's plans. Five are now finished and in the water; we'd love to have the fleet grow!

[Pernicious Atavist]

Dan, will those be for plywood, or lumber? What would you recommend?

[redoleary]

I just stumbled on to this sailing canoe/kayak called a Caillou? At 100# it may be a bit heavy to car top solo, but it is a pretty little boat. http://www.caillou-boats.com/

[Dan Miller]

Dan, will those be for plywood, or lumber? What would you recommend?

The plans are for stitch-and-glue plywood, but the original boat was Spanish cedar over sawn frames. It's possible the original construction may be written up sometime down the road.

[Canoez]

Dan - was there a plan for the museum to offer a 16|30 building course after the plans were worked out?

[ingo]

Dan, could you please inform me when they are available?
Since several years I am interested in sailing canoes. We – the German Classic Yacht club (and yes, sailing canoes do count as a yacht ;-) – have digitized a lot of material and magazines for our http://www.yachting-history.org/english.htm (http://www.yachting-history.org/english.htm) including the magazine “Die Yacht” from 1904 to 1959. There are several articles about sailing canoes, for example
http://www.fky.org/prestodata/execsearch.php4?mask=norm&language=eng&search_text_fields=segelkanu (http://www.fky.org/prestodata/execsearch.php4?mask=norm&language=eng&search_text_fields=segelkanu)
(all articles with “sailing canoe”=”Segelkanu” in the table of contents) but unfortunally there are virtually no activities in classic canoe sailing in Germany at all. Time to change this.

[Dan Miller]

Dan - was there a plan for the museum to offer a 16|30 building course after the plans were worked out?

We've done one already, and while we haven't made plans yet for a second, we are talking about it....

[chrisk]

Yes, we're putting the final edits to the plans and preparing a construction manual - all should be done early this summer. Contact me at dmiller@abm.org or John Summers at jsummers@abm.org for more details. Some more details are here: http://abm.org/canoe-sailing.asp
I looked and see it's for stitch & glue. I've got three 4x8 Okume BS1088 sheets at 4mm and about six 4x8 Okume BS6566 sheets at 6mm. Is that enough of the right combination ?
It's generally considered that the BS6566 isn't good for hulls but typically considered OK for bulkheads and decks due to the thin outer layers. So, I guess the question is wether the three sheets of 4mm BS1088 is enough to make the hull.

I also have some 1/16 cedar veneers for a cold-molded project. Id' really rather use that if there are appropriate offsets that could be used for cold molding the hull and then using the BS6566 for bulkheads ands decks.

I was going to use this wood for either Selway FIsher's JC10, I think I can get the hull together with the three 4mm plywood sheets, or his Woodland 15, which I would probably try and cold-mold from the outline of the cross-sections that he provides, as soon as I finish my Bolger Single handed schooner later this summer. This 16x30 certainly gets added to the list of possibilities

When I get to my home computer I'll send an email for more data.

Thanks

[Lewisboats]

Hi Steve - Not my style of boat, but it sure looks lke fun.:) I like the sail - what design is it from?

I don't know...I bought it used from a forum member as part of a bundle of sails that he was getting rid of. It is actually a Gaff sail that I rigged as a Sprit instead.

[skuthorp]

Ingo, what a treasure trove! Thank you for the links, but I'll have to brush up on my always woeful German a bit. I can make the sense but not the detail, and as for the grammar!!

[ingo]

Ah, the German language ;-) We thought of a project with automatic translation and a wiki-frontend to edit this by the users. But I lack a little of time to do it. Anyway we have extracted the complete text from all 100,000 pages of the issues to provide a fulltext search.

At http://www.fky.org/prestodata/execsearch.php4?mask=presto&language=eng&search_freitext=melbourne you get for example all 268 pages that contain the word "melbourne"...

Anyway we think of doing this in the future with other magazines, especially in english language, too.

[ingo]

I forgot. At http://www.fky.org/prestodata/execsearch.php4?mask=ext&config=bild&language=eng&search_titel=kanu you get about 50 photos of sailing canoes from out picture-database.

[skuthorp]

Ingo, pic 17 and 18 are the most interesting to me. What would a hull weigh do you think? I do like the lines, much more suitable for a pure sailer than my Mac.

[David G]

Another interesting design is Michael Storer's Beth:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/beth.html

Ultimately simple (except for the classic rig), light, and high-performance. I'd be interested to know how it compares with the revived 16x30:

http://www.enter.net/~skimmer/images/ABM_1934_sm.jpg

The fundamental difference is that the flat-bottomed Beth is designed for deck sitting and reefing to maintain stability, while the shallow-v 16x30 has a standing rig and a sliding seat.

I've had some contact with the builder of one. He seems to like it a lot. Like any sailing canoe, it's a bit tender. Storer's rig is easy to reef, though, if I understand it correctly.

Storer also designed a simple plywood canoe (sans sails) that looks interesting:

http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/eureka/

"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish" -- Albert Einstein

[Pernicious Atavist]

Ingo--check your messages!

The old lapstrake designs sure do appeal, don't they? I wonder if the strakes have an effect in such a small boat, especially when heeled.