Ell vs. Flatfish

[esingleman]

I am looking at these two designs for a project down the road a few years. Does anyone know much about Bill Gardens Ell? She looks damned sweet, and would appear to be trailer fairly easily if you wanted to put her in a differnet place once in awhile (like on a yearly basis).

Yawl rigs I remember reading can be a little easier to manage compared to a large sloop rig. Does anyone know anything about the sailing performance of Ell? Is she a thoroughbread or is she pretty stable?

Flatfish is very close in design to the 12 -1/2 I am currently restoring. I thought the Yawl rig Ell might be something a little bit different.

There is an LF Herreshoff 23' that looks nice also, but that is starting to get near the end of my size range.

[Thorne]

My understanding is that Eel is not any sort of 'thoroughbred', as she's rather beamy, but can be a beautiful boat with lots of character.

Tell us what you want to do with the boat - sail offshore solo, sail the local duckpond with a crew of eight, trailer it to Wooden Boat shows, etc.

[Tom Mac]

A Flatfish, looks like a 12 1/2, but it is not the same boat. It is much more comfortable and faster. And good looking too. Tom Mac

[Russ Manheimer]

Good looking like this?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/13/18047066_b2cab06c5d_o.jpg

Though the Garden Eel would make a better cruising boat.

Nice choice to have.

Russ

[esingleman]

What do I plan to do with her? Well, my current boat is the little Pooduck in the avitar. Building the 12.5 so we can take another couple sailing with us, bring to Herreshoff Museum for annual race, and just to get hull #1498 back in the game. The next boat I'd like to have will be the last one and will be for my retirement years (which are still 10-12 years away, God willing)to keep on Lake George, or bring to the New England shore for say a month or two at a time to cruise around the coast (little day trips), take to the thousand islands maybe. Pull a little dingy behind an go ashore check out the lay of the land, get some grub and move on to the next stop. I live in Albany NY, but may try to get some arrangement that will get me closer to the shore for retirement.

Don't want to have to pull her witha a huge truck. Would like to be able to single hand her once in a while if necassary (wife attempts mutiny or something). Must be a stunning looking boat. Classic lines, No hard chine plywood mutlifaceted boxes accepted under any circumstances. Will probably build strip, or glued lap.

[Steve Paskey]

I'm going to make a suggestion that might be smaller than what you had in mind, but hear me out.

Build the boat that Nat Herreshoff designed for HIS retirement -- Coquina.

She's as beautiful a small boat as you'll find, and at three hundred or so pounds in glued lap, you could tow her behind anything. That last point is the kicker for me -- who knows what gas prices will be like in 10 to 12 years? And do you really want to plan on towing something as big and heavy as a Flatfish?

http://www.dhylanboats.com/dhbnewzs0.jpg

[Steve Paskey]

Here's another design that I'd consider to be stunning -- and it's bigger than Coquina but much lighter than Eel or Flatfish. The Newfoundland Trap Skiff from Walt Simmons. Iain Oughtred's Caledonia Yawl is another possibility, but I think Coquina and the trap skiff are better looking.

www.duck-trap.com/2002nts.html

http://www.boatbuildingbooks.com/thankyou.jpg

[esingleman]

Steve, those are two lovely boats, but I think i will want a small pocket crusier. Something like a daysailer with a cuddy (having a head will be important). I don't expect to be towing her around too much. Probably just bring her someplace at the begining of the season and bring her home at the end of the season.

[Ed Armstrong]

Sounds like what you may need is a redesigned Flatfish for cold-molding to save some weight and make it more suitable for trailering, perhaps with a cabin as was designed for the Herreshoff Marlin (a Fish with a cabin). Here's an old ad for a Marlin:

http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1201465757.jpg

[Steve Paskey]

Here's an interesting cat yawl with a cuddy in about your size range ...

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2001/Jerome-1.jpg

[esingleman]

That looks very interesting Steve, what she be?

[Thorne]

Looks like a Chebacco to me == great design, lots of support, Yahoo groups, websites, etc.

http://www.chebacco.com/

http://www.chebacco.com/mainpicture.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Take a look at how WBF member Howard Sharp Chebacco sails in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtxjcfb24W8

[Ed Armstrong]

Nice video! I've always liked the looks of the lapstrake Chebacco, thought not having a jib to play with would take some getting used to. One question I had when I looked at them a year or so ago was whether there was sitting headroom inside the cabin.

Ed

[Thorne]

As in the photo above, you can fly a small jib if you want, although there is the aft sail to fiddle with along with the main.

[esingleman]

Nice video Joe, thanks.

Joe, why don't you think about putting together a day this summer or fall to have people in the area bring some of our wooden boats to cold springs for a little raid on the Hudson. I'd come down from Albany, looks much prettier than up here next to the concrete of Rockifeller's legacy where the river isn't as wide.

[Lion]

Nice vidio, Joe. Got one of a Flatfish and an Eel?

Lion

[michigangeorge]

So which was the faster boat, Tidbit or Chebacco? Nice flick by the way :-)

[esingleman]

Sounds like what you may need is a redesigned Flatfish for cold-molding to save some weight and make it more suitable for trailering, perhaps with a cabin as was designed for the Herreshoff Marlin (a Fish with a cabin). Here's an old ad for a Marlin:



As a matter of fact, that is what I was thinking of doing to the flatfish. I saw a Marlin at the Herreshoff regatta last year, and she sure was lovely, and pretty quick.

[Ed Armstrong]

Esingleman, if you're serious about redesigning the Flatfish for coldmolding, you might talk to Bob Stephens at Brooklyn Boatyard. I corresponded with him a couple of years ago, when I still thought that I might have time to undertake a build of this size, and he thought he could do the redesign for around $3K. Main adjustments would be redrawing the shape of the keelson and reducing the number of frames. We didn't get down to talking about drawing a Marlin-like cabin, but I did look into getting plans for the Marlin from the Herreshoff Martime Museum, and while I don't think they had hull plans (those still being with Cape Code Shipbuilding), they did have cabin and deck structural drawings (IIRC).

There's yet another option too, if you're willing to give up some of the trailerability. The Herreshoff Martime Museum currently has a partially restored Marlin hull that they're selling. Price last I heard was around $8K. It sounds like it was professionally restored after a fire, but only the hull. It still needs an interior, deck and cabin. I'd be sorely tempted, even given my time limitations, if I lived on the east coast. Might be something to look into further, if you're serious about a Marlin. It would limit your trailering options quite a bit, but you'd have a piece of history.

Ed

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

So which was the faster boat, Tidbit or Chebacco? Nice flick by the way :-)

Chebacco is about 1/2 the weight so she heals faster but once my old girl get's up to speed she held her own and on some tacks a lil better ;) But then I'm a little biased ;)

And I'm all for a hudson mess-about with as many boats as we can get.

[esingleman]

The Herreshoff Martime Museum currently has a partially restored Marlin hull that they're selling. Price last I heard was around $8K. It sounds like it was professionally restored after a fire, but only the hull. It still needs an interior, deck and cabin. I'd be sorely tempted, even given my time limitations, if I lived on the east coast. Might be something to look into further, if you're serious about a Marlin. It would limit your trailering options quite a bit, but you'd have a piece of history.

Ed

Thanks Ed, if I were on the coast instead of Albany, NY I would jump right on that Marlin, but I already have a piece of history with 12-1/2 hull #1498, which is my current project.