Faux teak deck.... epoxy or 5200?

[Norman Bernstein]

I'm maybe a month away from being ready to lay a faux teak deck on my 15' catboat project (see here (http://www.marisystems.com/ellipticat) for details). The teak decking will be laid straight, not sprung, on top of a subdeck consisting of 1/4" marine ply with 10 oz. glass epoxy.

I'm debating whether to use thickened epoxy or 3M 5200 to lay these strips. Does anyone have an informed opinion?

Also, I'm debating the issue of clamping pressure. Originally, I was planning to use the method outlined by the Gougeon brothers... namely, using #4 self tapping screws with big washers between laid strips, both to clamp the strips in place while the adhesive cures, as well as to establish the seam gap. However, it occurs to me that I'd be punching holes in the continuous epoxy/ply deck, and depending on the seam compound to keep the deck leak-free.... maybe it would be better to use bricks, set on edge, to weight the strips down until the adhesive cures?

If I did that (i.e., use weights to clamp the strips down), I'd be concerned about the adhesive cure time. Epoxy, even in an unheated shop like mine, cures adequately in 24-36 hours... but I've never used 5200... how long does it take before it's cured sufficiently to remove the weights or screws?

Finally, I'm wondering about the need and/or merit of priming the teak strips. I've built a few dock boxes with laid teak surfaces, set in epoxy, and while some have held up, at least one has had one or two strips let go. Does wiping down the bottom of the strip with acetone really help? How about the various teak adhesive primers?

[OEX]

All I know is that teak and oak do not like epoxy and will let go after a few years. From what I remember, Resorcinol is the best for teak and white oak---or I would do 5200 first over epoxy, but 5200 is such a pain in the ass to deal with if you need to fix a spot or work in it after in my limited experience.

Has anyone used that self sealing roofing membrane under or between ply deck layers to avoid the "punch a hole for a fastener, get a leak" issue? I am in the ply deck thinking mode right now. I thought I would pout down a 3/8 ply deck fastened to the old deck under it and to the deck beams also having a goop like substance under it (like tile grout for showers). Then I would lay a thinner ply cover over that (hiding seams of first layer too) and attach that with resorcinol or something on the glue only level with as few fastenings as possible so it is very fair. Then I am laying dynel on top of this with epoxy. So......????

I was also considering scribing the last layer of ply with a deck seam look and then seeing if the dynel will lays well enough to reflect the seams---ala painted laid deck. Not sure if this will work or not, so I am experimenting first.

cheers

[Garrett Lowell]

Norman, I can't answer your question, but I wanted to say: nice website. Nicely done.

[Norman Bernstein]

Norman, I can't answer your question, but I wanted to say: nice website. Nicely done. Thanks, Garrett... appreciate it.

Hopefully SOMEONE can answer my question; OEX's reply was interesting, but not really responsive.

[Ken Hutchins]

5200 will need several days to set up before removing the clamps then a full week minimum to fully cure. If your shop and the wood is not warm or moist enough it could take a month or more.

[Norman Bernstein]

5200 will need several days to set up before removing the clamps then a full week minimum to fully cure. If your shop and the wood is not warm or moist enough it could take a month or more. Well, that rules out using 5200... I work in an unheated garage. I use a kerosene torpedo heater in the winter to make it comfortable enough to work in, but I won't leave it running without me being there.

I guess it will be epoxy, then... which leaves the question: what about priming the teak strips? I've seen mention of teak primers, but don't know anyone who has used them. My previous experience of teak decking laid in epoxy is mixed: on some projects, like my dock box, it worked beautifully... on another, the epoxy let go of some strips.

Any info on teak primers?

[ 11-14-2005, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Norman Bernstein ]

[Bruce Hooke]

My father and I laid a faux teak deck in the cockpit sole of his sailboat about 6 years ago. We used the method laid out by the Gougeon Brothers, including filling between the teak planks with black epoxy. Because we used epoxy between the planks I did not worry in the least about the screw holes that were left by the screws placed between the planks to both space the planks and hold them in place. We did wipe the strips with acetone. I'm not sure if it helped but the teak strips have not let go so far. I do not have any experience with teak primers. I wonder if this might be a place for CPES?

[JimD]

Norm, have you taken a look at this product, the latest from Steve Smith (the CPES guy)?

http://www.glueoakandteak.com/

Might be worth a try. I recall WEST uses screws to fasten/space because the method also calls for epoxy as the seam compound. If you don't do it that way how would you space the planks? Plastic tile spacers might work very well. What kind of awful mess will you have trying to get exess glue out of the seams? How thick are the teak strips? What did you plan to put over top of the teak? Oil, nothing? Inquiring minds, ya know.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by OEX:
From what I remember, Resorcinol is the best for teak and white oakUnfortunately, Resorcinol needs very high clamping pressures to be reliable, which simply is not viable when dealing with a faux teak deck or, for that matter, large sheets of plywood (unless you can put the plywood in a giant press). In addition, Resorcinol also needs to be kept quite warm while it cures (70 degrees plus, IIRC).

I'm no expert on rebuilding decks, but it sounds to me like you (OEX) are going a bit overboard with your complicated layup schedule for your deck.

[willmarsh3]

I like it - a real world boat building website.
I know one thing not to use - bronze staples. In 1983 the builders of my steel boat used 1/8" teak on top of 1/4" doug fir plywood. These were stapled and bedded in epoxy mixed with graphite. Extra graphite epoxy was spread on top. Once cured it was all ground off to make a pleasing appearance of teak with payed seams. Over the years the legs of the staples gradually worked their way up. They tear clothes and cause pain for someone walking barefoot. I've spent many hours with plyers pulling these out.
In my case the epoxy held the strips in place for about 15 years or so, now they need to be redone.

Will.

[Gary E]

I have no experience using the above mentioned material as glue, but what about this.

Formica is "glued" to either plywood or flake board with contact cement. It is or as it seems waterproof to the extent that it is used in kitchen counters with no problems. So what I am wondering is why not use the contact cement then weight with sadbags etc and you have something that will stay put imeadiatly and not have any holes in the plywood. Spacers can be used to create the "seams" and since you wont coat them with the cement they wont stick inplace.

Then fill the seams with what ever caulk you like.

I know, it dont sound yachtie or boateeee enuf..

[ 11-14-2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Bruce Hooke]

I have some experience using contact cement to glue down "Formica" and I don't think I would trust it in the much more demanding environment of a boat's deck. It's good stuff for counters, but it is subject to creep, and while strong enough for counters, it is nowhere near as strong as the more usual options.

[Norman Bernstein]

Might be worth a try. I recall WEST uses screws to fasten/space because the method also calls for epoxy as the seam compound. If you don't do it that way how would you space the planks? Plastic tile spacers might work very well. What kind of awful mess will you have trying to get exess glue out of the seams? How thick are the teak strips? What did you plan to put over top of the teak? Oil, nothing? Inquiring minds, ya know. Thanks for the tip, JimD.

I'm NOT going to use epoxy with graphite for the seam compound... I've been warned away from that by people who have tried it and report that the sanding dust gets into the pores of the teak and is dificult to remove. Instead, I'm just going to use an ordinary pulysuphide seam compound... I've used it before with good success, and it's not too difficult to remove when necessary.

I agree that plastic tile spacers would work great... but I'm not completely confident about using weights for clamping pressure, so I might end up using the screws and washers like the Gougon book suggests.

The teak strips will be 1/4" thick... rather difficult to screw and bung into place, which is why I want to just bed them.

I don't think that squeeze-out in the seams will be a problem. I plan to use a notched trowel to get the adhesive application quite uniform before laying the strips.... there wil lbe enough epoxy for complete coverage, but not so much that there will be excessive squeeze-out... I hope.

Someone else suggested contact cement... might be a good idea, except I've done a bit of amateur Formica stuff, virtually ALL of which has failed! smile.gif I don't think I'd want to risk it.

Still considering a teak primer.

I'll check out that link, JimD

[Bruce Hooke]

If you are very concerned about the screw holes you could first fill them with thickened epoxy before you lay in the polysulfide.

I believe the usual approach to "bunging" screw holes in these sorts of planks is to remove the screws (after the glue cures) and then glue the bungs in with epoxy (you could even deepen the bung holes first), which should be pretty reliable, but I do not see any reason to go through all that unless you want bungs to make it look more like a "real" teak deck.

Is 1/4" teak thicker than what Gougeon recommends? Keep in mind that the thicker the teak the more load it places on the glue.

[Paulyboy]

When using epoxy as an adhesive on oily type woods, like teak, you should use acetone 1st as an astringent to get the oil off the surfaces to be bonded together. i would imagine that using a swab made of lint free toweling would work. Don't need to saturate the wood, just completely wipe down the surface.

[Tom Lathrop]

Contact cement - absolutely not. It often fails on counter tops so would be a disaster on a boat. I have gone the pigmented epoxy route and used screws and plywood washers (with duct tape to prevent sticking) in the spaces. If you want the spaces to be absolutely uniform, use a spacer. I made them from wood with plastic packing tape over them. They need to be accurately cut to make the strips come out even and you should start on the centerline for the same reason.

You can find a complete story and photos of this process on: http://www.bronkalla.com/ look under decking in the site map.

My only comment is that I would not thicken the epoxy very much since bubbles are then difficult to get out. That was my experience with decking a runabout with mahogany. I have not had more than 10 years with using teak like this but it works at least that long with no problems at all.

[Norman Bernstein]

I believe the usual approach to "bunging" screw holes in these sorts of planks is to remove the screws (after the glue cures) and then glue the bungs in with epoxy (you could even deepen the bung holes first), which should be pretty reliable, but I do not see any reason to go through all that unless you want bungs to make it look more like a "real" teak deck.
I would love the look, Bruce... and frankly, it's not a bad idea. I honestly hadn't thought of that. Admittedly, it's a great deal of work, especially getting the bungs to all line up cleanly... but I'm going to think about that.

Is 1/4" teak thicker than what Gougeon recommends? Keep in mind that the thicker the teak the more load it places on the glue. It is. Gougeon recommends teak as thin as 1/8" for a faux deck.

However, I'm just not equipped to resaw teak to 1/8", and can't find a supplier of 1/8" teak strips. There is, however, a supplier of 1/4" teak strips, 1 3/4" wide, for $0.67/linear foot (in 750 foot qualtities)... they advertise in the back of WB. I spoke to them about 6 months ago. They tell me the strips are mostly flat sawn, which is of course not what I'd like... but I'll settle for that.

[Bruce Hooke]

Hmmmm....there is a very good reason why Gougeon recommends 1/8" -- IIRC they say that thicker strips can overpower the glue and cause glue joint failures. I cut our strips on a bandsaw, but it is true that I only needed to cut enough for a cockpit sole, not an entire deck.

By the way, I do recall reading somewhere (probably either WoodenBoat or Fine Woodworking) that tests had shown that the acetone wipe procedure does not really confer any benefits. None-the-less, I still do it with things like teak and white oak because I figure it can't hurt...

[Tom Lathrop]

Originally posted by Norman Bernstein:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It is. Gougeon recommends teak as thin as 1/8" for a faux deck.

However, I'm just not equipped to resaw teak to 1/8", and can't find a supplier of 1/8" teak strips. There is, however, a supplier of 1/4" teak strips, 1 3/4" wide, for $0.67/linear foot (in 750 foot qualtities)... they advertise in the back of WB. I spoke to them about 6 months ago. They tell me the strips are mostly flat sawn, which is of course not what I'd like... but I'll settle for that.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]If you order a Matsushita thin kerf blade from Dave Carnell or even a thin planer blade from the local building supply, you can saw this thin on a tablesaw easily.

Actually that is too thin since you will be sanding about 1/16" or a bit less in the sanding/leveling stage after the epoxy is in the grooves. I make the planks about 3/16". If you want quartersawn, make them from flat sawn lumber that has been accurately planed to the width of your planks.

On further refection, I think my planks were about 0.15" thick.

[ 11-14-2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[Tom Lathrop]

Originally posted by Tom Lathrop:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Norman Bernstein:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It is. Gougeon recommends teak as thin as 1/8" for a faux deck.

However, I'm just not equipped to resaw teak to 1/8", and can't find a supplier of 1/8" teak strips. There is, however, a supplier of 1/4" teak strips, 1 3/4" wide, for $0.67/linear foot (in 750 foot qualtities)... they advertise in the back of WB. I spoke to them about 6 months ago. They tell me the strips are mostly flat sawn, which is of course not what I'd like... but I'll settle for that.</font>[/QUOTE]If you order a Matsushita thin kerf blade from Dave Carnell or even a thin planer blade from the local building supply, you can saw this thin on a tablesaw easily.

Actually that is too thin since you will be sanding about 1/16" or a bit less in the sanding/leveling stage after the epoxy is in the grooves. I make the planks about 3/16". If you want quartersawn, make them from flat sawn lumber that has been accurately planed to the width of your planks.

On further reflection, I think my planks were about 0.15" thick.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

[Norman Bernstein]

If you order a Matsushita thin kerf blade from Dave Carnell or even a thin planer blade from the local building supply, you can saw this thin on a tablesaw easily.
I might... but I really would rather not.

My table saw is a big-box-store 'cheapie' and doesn't have the stability or accuracy to do a decent job of it. I've resawn 1/4" strips (for my tiller), but with great difficulty... although I'm sure a better blade would help, it's too time-consuming. As it is, this is my third winter building this boat, and I'd prefer not to stretch the project to a fourth! smile.gif

Incidentally, I did a spreadsheet analysis of resawing my own strips, and even with optomistic assumptions about the kerf size, and the cost of teak planks thick enough (8/4, planed to 1.75"), the net cost was roughly the same as buying the strips.

[ 11-14-2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Norman Bernstein ]

[JimConlin]

As has been said above, The strips should not be any thicker than needed for a wear surface. 3/16" is plenty. Thicker strips will weigh more, take more material and place more stress on the glue, increasing the chance of failure. If the deck needs to be stiffer, use thicker plywood.
Epoxy has been well tested in this application, is less expensive and less of a pain than 5200. Why get brave.

Especially if there's any crown to the deck, only vacuum bagging or screws will provide reliable clamping. Locating the screws either in the joint or in the plank (later to be bunged) is OK. Both have benefits. If in the joint, the screws (I've used #10's) serve as spacers but leave you with holes that probably deserve sealing (Use epoxy in a syringe.) before applying the seam filler. If screws are to be through the plank, you'll need some kind of spacers in the joints. Tile spacers are fine. Spray 'em with cooking oil or wd40 so they're easier to get out. In this approach, it's easier to get the excess googe out of the joint.

For filling the joint, the good yards are using Teak Decking Systems SIS 440 sealant. It's a silicone product, is well tested on cruise ships, etc. Nicer to work with, too. Jamestown has it. Again, why be brave.

[OEX]

I just remembered where I heard NOT to use epoxy on teak---Larry Pardey's book, Classic Boat Construction (or close to that)---he is so outspoken against it that he dedicated a whole section of the appendix on why not to.

My deck idea is a bit complex, but two layers seem to me a good way of stiffening up the hull and hiding fastening, etc---I might chicken out on the work to "seam" the ply, but the rest I think I will stay with, unless someone has a good reason not to. If I see/learn its overkill and needless I will change my mind real fast!

Cheers, Bruce

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Why don't you buy a sheet of premade faux decking... Noahs sell it, and although expensive, I would say it probably works out at about the same price given any consideration to time. It consists of teak strips already caulked and laminated to a plywood substrate. Cut it, fit it, done.

Edited to add: Great Website Norm... I appreciate the parts on problems, mistakes etc.. very informative, and honest too. ;)

[ 11-14-2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

[Norman Bernstein]

Why don't you buy a sheet of premade faux decking... Noahs sell it, and although expensive, I would say it probably works out at about the same price given any consideration to time. It consists of teak strips already caulked and laminated to a plywood substrate. Cut it, fit it, done.
I could, Peter... but despite my desire to get this project moving forward at a somewhat more accelerated pace, buying a piece of pre-made decking like that would go just a bit TOO far, for my tastes. Seems to me that to own a teak deck on a homemade boat, one has to EARN it! Hell, I could have bought a pretty nice gaff-rigged catboat and skipped the entire building process, if simply owning the boat was my objective...

As I've said, the journey, not the destination, is the reward.

BTW... thanks for your kind compliment. As you can see, I'm a better website builder than I am a boatbuilder!

[ 11-14-2005, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Norman Bernstein ]

[JimConlin]

Two comments-
The face veneer in the faux deck panels is very thin. There's no margin for error and certainly not enough material to sand out a ding.

Gougeon Brothers developed the techniques for overlaid teak decks over 25 years ago. If there's anyone in the boatbuilding industry who know their product, have the application experience and laboratory skills and facilities to be sure what it can and cannot do, and is honest enough to tell us, they're it.

[Norman Bernstein]

The face veneer in the faux deck panels is very thin. There's no margin for error and certainly not enough material to sand out a ding.
I think you're right, JimConlin. A boat I once owned came with a 'teak and holly' cabin sole... you know, veneered plywood. It looked great when brand new, but I dropped a wrench on it one day, and it took only a few tens of seconds of trying to sand out the ding before I went right through the veneer, to the substrate below.

Maybe the stuff made for exterior decks is thicker... but I'd still rather have 1/4" of real teak under my feet, which should last for decades with any reasonable care.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

True enough, the comments about how thin the panelized stuff is real.

I am considering doing a teak cockpit floor in my CC. I would have to buy a significant amount of teak, so I am considering Iroko.

I would have thought the alternative to epoxy in Norm's case to be a high grade adhesive... perhaps from the constuction sector. Temperature would probably not be as critical.

[Norman Bernstein]

Peter, at the Maine Wooden Boat Show a few years ago, I saw a really elegant daysailer (you know, the 30' long type!) with a cockpit sole made from silverbali (sp?).... it looked a bit like slightly weathered teak, to me. I have no idea if it's better/worse/cheaper/more expensive than teak, but I guess it's worth looking into.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Iroko is about a third the price up here of teak.. Teak is about 20 bucks US a board foot here. Ouch. I'm on the great lakes, so that is pretty far inland. We don't have anywhere NEAR the wooden boat infrastructure that the East coast has.

[Carlsboats]

Have yu talked to the people at Teak Decking Systems? They do this for a living --the one
job of theirs that I saw in progress was on
a fabulous boat, Circe, being rebuilt in Mystic at who knows what cost.
TDS seems to have found the way to bond teak to a substrate, and they will sell you the caulk for the seams.

[sdowney717]

Has anyone suggested PL Premium Polyurethane construction adhesive yet? HD sells the super large cartrides for 5.99 per tube so I am sure it beats the price of epoxy and 5200 easily.
It should setup in a day.
Why not try a test piece using teak and see how well it holds. I suppose you could setup 2 pieces, one wiped down with acetone and one not wiped down. It is a durable waterproof adhesive. Putting it on top of epoxy is also interesting, has anyone tested this out, sanded epoxy vs non sanded epoxy?

[Ellis Rowe]

Norman, What Jim and Carl said. Teak decking systems has an epoxy that they use for glueing the strips down. I use their products and vacuum bag for even clamping pressure. Larry Murray at TDS taught me their method for gettin even seam, which is scary as hell but works. They space their seams slightly smaller than 3/16ths. Once everything is glued and set up they dull a 3/16 router bit with a stone then carefully push it through the seams with a trim router. I had to try it on some scrap, but as soon as I got my nerve up I jumped on the deck, and it worked slick as owl snot.

[JimConlin]

Ellis-
a dulled straight bit is self-guiding in slightly tight seam?
If so, that's slick.

[islandteak]

FWIW...I wouldn't use epoxy as a deck adhesive on wood thicker than 1/8". The wood moves,epoxy doesn't. On 3/16" teak decking I use a polyurethane (Sikaflex 291) and caulk with Sikaflex 290 DC. I lay the teak strips, space and clamp with screws and washers. When set I finish sand the entire deck. After vacuuming and lightly washing the caulking groove with a solvent, I mask the surface edges of the caulking groove and apply the Sikaflex 290. Use a piece of plastic trowel to smooth the caulking and pull up the masking tape immediately after finishing each strip. The decks is done.

... Ken aka 'Island Teak'

[Norman Bernstein]

Ken (aka IslandTeak),

Thanks for the advice... so far, it seems to be the most reasonable and logical. I checked the tech data sheet for Sikaflex 291, and it looks good; a 5mm thickness will cure in just a few days at 10 degrees C. I can't keep my unheated garage at that temp, but I can use heatlamps inside the hull, which will probably get the stuff up to 50-60F or so.

It appears that Sikaflex 291 is available in two varieties: the regular, and an 'LOT' (long open time) version; which do you use?

Also, how do you spread the adhesive? Do you use a notched trowel? (That would seem the best way to get an even thickness) Do you apply adhesive to the strips as well?

[Art Read]

5/16 x 2" unfastened teak, buttered with 5200, spaced with little plastic, Home Depot, "tile spacers" layed on half inch, screwed, bunged and epoxied sapelle ply underlayment "caulked" with Sika deck seam compound. (291 DC?)

Three years out in our Seattle weather . No problems. (But it does get kind of grey 'till I give her the yearly scrub...)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/p5c50df1621f6185df1b88124ebfb7ad4/fdc7060a.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid13/pcce230902bc419ff26f35d0879b174db/fddad7fb.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/pfb1d17f9e686744fe392f609a22b0984/fdc70af4.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid21/p6160b6f097116509be6b3edc4674ac78/fdb12197.jpg

[ 11-15-2005, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Norman Bernstein]

Art, how did you clamp the teak while the 5200 was curing? Screws and washers in the seam gaps? Weights?

[Art Read]

Weights... Lots of 'em... Heavy too... Working on relatively small areas at a time.

(One of the advantages of a straight laid deck.)

[ 11-15-2005, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Art Read]

"Incidentally, I did a spreadsheet analysis of resawing my own strips, and even with optomistic assumptions about the kerf size, and the cost of teak planks thick enough (8/4, planed to 1.75"), the net cost was roughly the same as buying the strips."

--------------------------

Norman, FWIW, I just bought a couple of big two inch planks from a local supplier who offered a resawing service. Paid a bit more, but I was able to just go pick up my deck strips ready to go and after comparing all costs, I think it was cheaper in the long run. Quarter sawn in the bargain! Maybe $650 for my deck? (Going from memory here. It was a while ago...)

[ 11-15-2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Norman Bernstein]

Art,

This is still a possible way to go, for me... IF I can find someone to do the resawing. The local fine hardwoods dealer has 8/4 teak, flatsawn, which when surfaced and resawn will result in vertical grain planks, 1.75" wide.

My alternative is the stuff from that WB ad... 1/4" x 1.75", flatsawn, $0.67/linear foot for 750 linear feet (around $500, which is enough for my deck).

The last time I did a spreadsheet on this, it was no cheaper to buy planks and resaw them... and would be more expensive if i have to pay to have them resawn.

By the way, your boat is gorgeous... especially that last photo. My design has very narrow side decks near the cockpit, which wouldn't look good with a 'covering board', I think, so I'm planning to plank all the way to the edge, and use a fairly broad gunwale.

[pipefitter]

I know a czech yacht cabinet maker and whenever he glues teak to anything,he sands the glueside across the grain with 36 grit in a cross hatch pattern. Actually, he does that to any hardwoods he glues.

[islandteak]

Norman, I use the 291 LOT which allows for a longer working time. If you go with the sanding first/caulking last method you really need the slower to set Sikaflex. That masking tape MUST be lifted as soon as possible or the jelled Sikaflex will attach itself to the masking tape when you pull it off. Very hard to repair messed up Sikaflex when set (to make it look good).
As for ripping your own teak out of your own boards....it is probably worth it if you have good wood and good equipment. I sell DIY teak decking and waste can be considerable, teak does gum up your blades quickly so use Easy Off oven cleaner often and be very careful with grain orientation when planing.

Another advantage to the sand first/caulk last approach to decking is that the Sikaflex caulking sits a 'masking tape' thickness proud of your deck giving you a bit more traction.

...Ken

[Gerald]

I am currently laying a 3/16 inch deck on my 39 foot sailboat. I seal all wood surfaces with thin epoxy and then glue with thickened epoxy with a black powder pigment added. I add the pigment just in case I get sloppy and some of the glue shows. I remove as much glue from the joints as possible and after sanding will fill the joints with sikaflex. I have run 2x2's from one side of the boat to the other spaced at about 16 inches and about 1.5 inches off the deck surface. The strips are slid under the 2x2's and held in place with small wedges until the glue sets. I can lay as many strips per day as I have time. I have cut hundreds of wedges because I use the same method to lay up hulls when using strips.
Gerald

[Zimmer]

Urethanes do not cure soley on temperature but also at the humidity level - raise the humidity and they will cure quicker, regardless of the temperature.

[Gerald]

Here is a cut and paste that might interest you. Another opinion and something else to confuse us.
Gerald

Seam-Sealing Materials for Teak Decks Paul Ring’s three-part article on “Laying a Teak Deck” was excellent for the most part. However, Paul saw a potential weakness in his seam filling procedure that he chose to ignore. Graphite filled and thick-ened epoxy is a risky choice for a seam compound. Teak greatly expands and contracts with changing moisture content. These dimensional changes may far exceed the ability of the epoxy seam compound to expand without cracking. Unless the teak is protected from moisture cycling with teak oil or similar preparation, future cracking will surely occur with possible buckling and delamination of the teak strips from the deck as water seeps into the cracked epoxy. Black polysulfide rubber would have been a far safer choice in our estimation.
W. Kern Hendriks
System Three Resins
Seattle, Washington

[Don Z.]

It sounds like sikaflex may be the way to go, but based on what's been mentioned here, vacuum bagging may be better than weights. The screws would probably work, and I agree that thickened epoxy in the holes would solve that problem.

The concern over the teak being "too thick" is apropos, but I wonder, by the time this has all been laid, clamped, sanded, etc. how much of that 1/4 inch teak will still be there? 3/16? 5/32? That's really close to 1/8. My USFS Wood handbook lists teak as shrinking volumetrically from "very wet" to "overly dry" at 7%. 7% of 3/16 is .013125. 7% of 1/8 is .00875, for a difference of .004375". Four thousandths? And you'll probably sand next year, and the year after and...

I'm thinking this will work. I'm not a v-bagging expert (though I really want to learn), so I'd lean in that direction. Sikaflex seems like it would be better than epoxy, and I like the idea of "cross-hatching" with 36 grit, as that will definitely give "tooth" to the mix.

YMMV.

[Norman Bernstein]

I can see the merits of v-bagging, but I'm not equipped for it, nor is it likely that I'd have enough time, in any one session, to lay all the teak in order to v-bag it. I usually work on my project no more than 3 hours at a time, 3-4 nights per week.

I agree that from everything said so far, it looks like bedding the strips in Sikaflex 291LOT is the best option. I'd prefer to weight the strips while curing, rather than resorting to temporary screws and washers, but I wonder if that's practical, too... since it will be curing in the cold, and I might have to wait 3-4 days between sessions in order to safely remove the weights from one area and use them for another.

[kulas44]

I have used the black PL (roof repair ??) polyurethane with excellent results when laying glued teak. I also tried the White Lightening concrete repair polyurethane for the teak in the shower stall. It is very self leveling and will fill screw holes and irregular surfaces. I generally drill holes through the strips and use a screw and large washer to get clamping pressure, then redrill each hole for the bung, glued in with epoxy. I do not like the PL premium construction adhesive for decking, it oozes up through any gaps and looks terrible, even after sanding. Epoxy will do all the above at least as well, but not cheaper or easier.

[JimConlin]

IF the strips are consistently clamped and they start out at constant thickness, the amount of material lost in sanding is negligible, as is the amount removed by a periodic 'touch-up' sanding. 3/16" will last longer than the builder will.

Does it matter that the Sika is about twice the cost of epoxy?

[Gerald]

Does it matter that the Sika is about twice the cost of epoxy?

Jim
I agree with everything that you have stated. However, I don't understand the Sika is twice the cost part. Do you have experience that would indicate that epoxy could be used with no problem as a gap filler? On the surface it seem to me that plywood, strips, epoxy all glued together makes for a giant bubble when moisture is added. Fill me in because I am also eager to learn and am currently on a road that I think will work? I am willing to pay double for Sika if I end up with a non worry deck.
Gerald

[sdowney717]

In the USA we have PL Premium Polyurethane Adhesive which is good and cheap and waterproof, much cheaper the any of your other choices.
Go with a flexible polyurethane something dont use a rigid epoxy. Just dont do it, it may look like it is working but it will fail. I epoxied some teak, held together for 2 years then the bond broke. It was outside exposed to the weather all the time. My feeling was it was due to the oily nature of the wood, which means to me even if you clean it off, the pores, whatever still have some oil which I supposed caused it to fail.

[islandteak]

The problem with weighting the teak down while the adhesive sets is the likely chance that some decking will shift. The caulking gaps are usually 3/16" and it doesn't take much shift to make this highly visable. Usually this is not noticed until you remove your weights and the adhesive is well cured. There are pros and cons, but attaching a plywood subdeck (using weights and adhesives) will provide you with a substrate to screw into and keep the integrity of your original deck intact. I would dip/soak the outer edges of the plywood ( 3-4 ")in a wood perservative and then lightly sand.

....Ken

[Gerald]

I am using freijo not teak so the oil problem is not one of my major concerns.
The epoxy I am using is flexible enough that you can tie a strip of it into a knot after it has cured. I am buying Scuna products but my guess is that West has the same stuff.
I tried weights on a previous project and switched to wedges. I can apply hundreds of pounds of pressure to a small area. I am laying arched strips so need much more holding pressure than is required for straight strips.
Gerald

[JimConlin]

Gerald,
No, i would not use epoxy as the seam filler. As I said, i like the TDS product. Epoxy-graphite dust is miserable stuff that fills pores of the teak and looks awful. Holds up OK, though.
I do use epoxy for bonding the strips to the plywood. At $10 per 12.8 oz. (1/10 gal.)tube, the sticky goo such as Sika is $100/gal., roughly twice the cost of epoxy. We certainly hear enough whining about epoxy costs here, so i thought i'd mention it. This use of epoxy has been well tested.

[ 11-18-2005, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: JimConlin ]

[Gerald]

Some might find this site interesting and informative. Great looking work.

http://www.teakmarine.com/layingdecks.html

[islandteak]

A standard tube of Sikaflex for caulking does about 50 linear feet of 3/16" x 3/16" gap.
It does get costly and gives consideration to less expensive(pliable) deck to wood alternatives.

There is a debate whether a bond break strip of tape should be used so the caulking does not adhere to the sub deck.The reasoning is that a two sided attachment has greater elasticity then a three sided attchment. I believe that may be quite valid on thicker teak decking such as 1/2" but I am hesitant to reccomend it on 3/16" material. Any opinions ?

...Ken