Seizings instead of a splice?

[Kaa]

I need to put an eye with a thimble at the end of a 1/8 or 3/16 low-stretch line -- probably something like Sta-Set Plus X or equivalent. Doing a proper eye splice in that thickness, even if possible, is likely to be a pain. Can I just use two seizings instead?

Kaa

[lagspiller]

You might try a 'quick&dirty' splice and then seize.
Instead of unraveling and splicing with cords, you use the entire line.... splice it under a cord and then move up to the next row and go under a cord there. Do that 2-3 times and you have a pretty strong splice as it is. Then you can use a seizing over it to make it look better - and add a little more strength.

[hokiefan]

I'm by no means an expert so I can't comment directly. But if I remember correctly Brian Toss discusses it in "The Rigger's Apprentice". He's a splice advocate, but I know he covers wire seizing, and I think rope as well. Would be happy to look it up for you tonight, but my copy is on the toilet tank at home with my stack of "library" reading and I'm not there.

Cheers,

Bobby

[Kaa]

Lagspiller -- I think what you mean by "cord" is what's called here a "strand". But in any case, the type of line I'm talking about is not three-stranded -- it typically would have a braided cover with some kind of a unidirectional core inside.

Bobby -- thanks, I have the book at home myself. I'll check, but I vaguely remember Brion Toss saying that seizings are almost as good as a splice if you make several of them. But I'm still wondering whether the accumulated wisdom of this forum has anything to say about seizing small line instead of splicing...

Kaa

[J. Dillon]

You didn't mention what load is on the line.

What works for me is to bend the line around the thimble as usual then "sew" the two portions together using sail twine. Maybe several stitches. Then I apply a tight seizing in the usual way. I never tested it but I like to think the line would break first.

JD

[dredbob]

What you want to do is a "sew & serve" or "stitch & whip" eye. Those are two common terms for an easy method to make an eye in modern braided line. You just take some strong marline, waxed twine, or other good quality small stuff and, using a sail needle, sew the line tightly together for about 10-12 diameters (or whatever looks right) then finish off with a tight but evenly tensioned serving over the stitched section. Tapering the tail before serving is a nice touch. Test one, it'll probably be plenty strong enough for most uses on a small boat. It's also nice because it can be used on line which is otherwise almost unspliceable. Looks good too.

Bob

[Bob Cleek]

It's hard to splice braid around a thimble. You can use a splicing fid, but that stuff you are talking about is really pretty small. I've never seen a 1/8" round thimble, for that matter. We're talking, like, parachute cord here. (You'd use the round thimble for line. The teardropped shaped ones are properly for wire cable.)

Yes, the preferred method would be to seize it. However, I would sew the two sides together well first, then apply a sewn seizing over that. A sailmaker's needle and palm is just the ticket for that, of course...

If you DO find a 1/8" thimble and you do splice it, you'll find one of these in the right size very helpful.

http://www.frayedknotarts.com/images/Sailmaking/CringlingFid.gif

You make the spliced loop (cringle) the right size. The fid separates to permit the thimble to be set on the fid as shown. The cringle is then pounded down on the fid, stretching it until it pops into the thimble groove. The fid is opened up and the finished job removed! Amazingly simple solution to an ages old problem... thanks, reportedly, to some forumite who invented the method.

[paladin]

I think what lagspiller refers to is called a crow's foot...used around a farm or bullriders to secure a line under a bull....works like the tire chains on a car.....but....if you are using braided line all bets are off...I've used the crow's foot on larger thimbles with three strand then seized it and have never had a problem...

[Woxbox]

The main shrouds on the Kalmar Nyckel, which must take thousands of pounds of strain, are held together with round seizings. It's traditional, and if done right, they are absolutely reliable.

Here's an example I just grabbed from Wikipedia. From what I've learned of it, there seem to be two key considerations -- first, both parts of the line must be under considerable and even tension when you apply the seizings. Otherwise, it won't retain proper shape when put into service. Secondly, the seizings themselves need to be hardened up well as they are applied. The internal tension in the seizings has a lot to do with keeping them together. I realize you're working on a smaller scale, Kaa, but the principles aren't any different.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Forestay-Eye-Round-seizings-Bulls-eye.jpg/180px-Forestay-Eye-Round-seizings-Bulls-eye.jpg

[soba]

Kaa, can you give us a shot of what you want to splice? For most technical/braided ropes a Mobius brummel works a treat. I just used eight of 'em for my new Amsteel upper shrouds for the dinghy mast. Tapering the splice is the tough bit, but after you've done one, it gets really easy really fast.

soba

[Ian McColgin]

J Dillon and Mr Cleek are absolutely right. Sew the legs together and sieze her up. Two is excellent but in similar small jobs I've done one siezing about 3x the rope diameter and had no failures.

G'luck

[ChrisBen]

See also "Ashley Book of Knots" pgs. 541-543
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r133/loki59/seizing.jpg

[lagspiller]

Yes, I thought you were talking about a 3 stranded line when you brought up splicing as being 'a pain' to do. What I mentioned is a fast and simple way of making a splice when you don't have time or need to use all three strands ("kordeller"). In that kind of rope, it is almost as strong as a full splice. But braided line is a different story. Sorry.

[Kaa]

Thank you all. Sew and seize is it.

Kaa

[Jay Greer]

Here is a shot of "Endura Braid" that has been used as a main halyard.
The eye splice was made so as to allow the thimble to pass into the eye. Then the seizing was clapped on to secure the line into the eye.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8d836b3127ccec437ce9d564e00000020O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D560/ry%3D300/

[J. Dillon]

Speaking of splices. Years ago there was an annual publication called "How to build 20 boats". I think Mechanics Illustrated published it. I had a whole collection of them and built three boats from the plans contained.

As fillers they had all kind of neet little tips the economy minded boat builder could use (guys like me) I remember one regarding splices in small wire diameters. You would bend the wire around a thimble and temp. secure with a twist of small wire.

Then you would get a small length of copper tubing, the soft stuff, the dia. to be just enough to get both pieces of the wire to be spliced to fit into.

Then with a ball peen hammer pound the soft copper to fit snugly around the wires.

Then pour silver solder into the end of the home made sewage.

I made several like this on numerous boats and they never came apart.:D

JD