Le Tonkinois Varnish

[John R Smith]

Hello there fellow sailors and wooden boat experts (erm - not that I'm an expert, you understand, so perhaps "fellow" was the wrong word . . .)

Anyhow, our chandler (our good friend Mark Langdon just down the hill) has got some different varnish in stock. It's French, called "Le Tonkinois", and comes in an intriguing square tin. Thus far, I have used only Epiphanes on the good ship LULU, and really have been very pleased with it. But you know how it is, sometimes it's fun to try something different, and well, that tin looks kind of good.

So - has anyone else tried this stuff? And was it any good? And even more important, would it go over the top of existing Epiphanes with no nasty problems, do you think? Of course, it may well be that you have never heard of "Le Tonkinois" or seen that square tin with the great picture of a sailor on it and the incomprehensible French writing (which may well translate as "Do not apply to Lulus").

;) John

[Ian Wright]

Originally posted by John R Smith:
So - has anyone else tried this stuff? And was it any good? And even more important, would it go over the top of existing Epiphanes with no nasty problems,
;) JohnYes and yes. It's good stuff, not as high a gloss as Epifanes but builds well. Needs no sanding between coats or thinning for the first coats on bare wood.
I use both.

IanW

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Er, thank you John, for asking a question that has occurred to me, and thank you Ian for answering it!

Insofar as I understand it, Le Tonkinois is a real old style varnish made wholly of tung oil and resins, and Epifanes whilst similar has some modern compounds in it as well.

[Ian Wright]

... Plus Endeavour Marine Oil and White Wax as a teak finish,,,,,,,,,,, SWIMBO just bought a load of teak garden furniture, ideal stuff for a product test!
I'll let you know.

IanW

[Dave R]

John, Classic Boat, in their March issue started a test of various marine finishes. They haven't done any results yet but they say they will have some preliminary stuff in April's edition.

[John R Smith]

Dave

Thanks for that. Yes, Classic Boat are doing a varnish test and they did have some preliminary results after six months exposure, which almost all of them passed with flying colours. But I ask you, what use is that? I mean, I wouldn't give a varnish boat-room that couldn't last a feeble six months, would you? I need a varnish that will go two seasons with no problem (which Epifanes can manage, in my experience). So I suppose I shall end up doing my own test, as usual. What these magazines should have done was start the test ten years ago, ready to publish now . . .

Actually, people are just so inconsiderate, that's the problem. Gosh, we've got boats all over our beach in the final stage of terminal decay, varnish flaking and fluttering in the breeze, gribble worms lying back in the mud belching contentedly, with the last vestiges of topside paint clinging to a ravaged hull. Now if only they had attached a little sign saying "Hezzlethwaite's Spar Master Varnish, applied June 1957" or "Branglethorpe's Super Yacht Enamel, applied Spring 1948" we would all KNOW the best thing to use. But no, they did not, such is the selfish nature of mankind.

John

[Dave Hadfield]

John, there's a very good article about varnish in the latest issue of (I think) Cruisng World by Tom and Vicky Jackson, whose entire boat topsides are finished bright and who have just finished a cruise from NZ to Alaska. The hull is wedge-seam.

They offer some insights. They describe traditional tung oil based varnishes as soft, really. They don't use it, but instead use an Epiphane-style modern varnish.

They also recommend avoiding varnish on horizontal surfaces. Use paint there, they say.

Probably good advice.

Climates and usage differ, of course. It would be an interesting test for you to wood 2 items, give them each the same number of coats of the 2 types, and compare.

[Dave R]

John, you're right. why can't these folks put little signs on their boats to let you know what finish material it is that is flaking off? :rolleyes: :D

I don't suppose it will help you for now but the CB article indicated they would continue to look at the samples to se what happens down the road.

[Wild Wassa]

My Polaroids will not work on an Epiphane's surface, ... I nearly burnt my retinas, looking at my friend's Epiphaned boat.

Epiphane's gloss is very glossy, it gives specular highlights. Extreme gloss additives used to the extreme.

Warren.

ps, Don't let Epiphanes get wet, it will only go glossier.

[ 04-14-2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Scott Rosen]

There's an Italian varnish called Rivale, which is a traditional tung/linseed oil and natural resin product. No polyurethanes, no modern additives (except UV filters). I've used it, and it is, without a doubt, the most beautiful yacht finish out there. It practically makes you cry.

Trouble is, being Italian, Rivale is not only beautiful and warm, but it is soft, very, very fussy to apply and likes the warm weather--it can remain a little tacky for 24 hours in cool temps. If I had unlimited time to varnish, that's the stuff I would use.

But what the heck? Half the fun of varnishing is trying something new every once in a while. John, why don't you buy a can of the Le Tonkinois and see how you like it.

[John B]

I have no idea about it at all, but thought I'd say hello anyway.
Hello John.

[John R Smith]

Scott, you are absolutely right. Tomorrow I shall throw caution to the winds and grab a tin of the square stuff ;) And a big hello to you too, John B.

John

[martin schulz]

About 30% of the wooden Boat Owner in the Muesumharbour switched from Owatrol or Benar to Le Tonkinois.
I use it myself. I think it is pretty good stuff and works well inside and outside. There is also LT with some sort of UV-protection.

The only problem a friend of mine had using LT was with oak. No matter how often he painted the oak the surface was always a bit rough, but that could also be because of the acid in oak.

[ziptop]

Some thought: from experience. Epifanes: Dark going on and gets darker with age; actually darkens the wood underneath it. I have seen it a "walnut" color. It is notorious for crazing and no not all varnishes craze. I'd say six months in the sun and it is crazed. Gloss: To me the highest is Schooner; and it does not craze ( in my experience. Time it lasts: Six months depending on conditions can unfortunately be pushing it ( for a one part varnish). Tonkinois sounds interesting, also Coma Berenice, which I haven't yet tried. Varnishes each have their own characteristics and these are I think more important than which is THE best. For thickness and darkness: Epifanes For drying in cool weather: Schooner For slow drying: Rivale traditional and Petit. Thinner than water: Awlspar

[Matt J.]

I've always used Pettit/Zspar Captain's with decent results. I found yesterday that both IL Schooner and Epifanes were on sale, for less the Captain's, so I bought one of each... with acres of brightwork, I'll try different brands on different areas / parts / surfaces.

Why not? If ever there was a test for a good varnish, RARUS was that test.

This winter I used satin finish for the first time (Interlux) and realized how shallow my experience has been... I didn't know satin was so thick. The Zspar Captain's is thin, even watery in comparison.

[Otter]

I'm a Tonk-Nut. We use a lot of Le Tonkinois. There are several different varieties, the regular Le Tonkinois, another called Marine No 1 which has higher UV protection, Huile Bio Impression which is a more penetrating oil varnish with less gloss and a harder Tonk for wooden floors. Its really great stuff.

[Matt J.]

Has anyone tried Bristol Finish varnish? At 3X the cost of most varnishes, it's anything but cheap... they claim it's a traditional / traditionally based varnish, but that it'll go 1-2 years without maintenance in southern climates, 3-4 in northern. Now, I plan on maintaining every year anyway, but on such items as masts, it would be nice to be able to rely on the finish to last the season... last years varnish (I believe Schooner) was almost completely gone up on the top of the mast by the time the masts were pulled in the fall.

If the finish was really that good, it'd be worth it if only to not worry about having to go up the masts to refresh the varnish, or other had-to-maintain areas.

Just curious. We're painting the masts' top caps this year, anyway.

[Russ Harris]

Reply to Matt Joyce re: Bristol Finish

We used Bristol Finish for over two years on the teak of a 1965 Tor 40 yawl, Airborne, which we frequently show at local wooden boat shows. We brushed it on sanded teak to begin coating.

The Up Side - you can apply coat after coat in one-hour intevals so you can built up a finish in a relatively short time without sanding. This was an attraction to a weekender like myself.

The Down Side - it is expensive and over the course of two years, we tried various method to get the Bristol to stick to the teak: Sanding to bare wood; sanding the old finish; Scotchbriting the finish, etc. We exprienced very little peeling or cracking; however, the finish seemed to wear off or even wash off over a short period of time. I can remember finishing prior to the Biloxi boat show and having numerous spots down to the bare wood in just one to two months. This was with 5 - 8 coats in various places. This was similar to what I had experienced with Cetol which we previously used. Over the 2+ years we went through 4 gallons of Bristol at about $125 - 150 / gallon.

I have seen samples of Bristol that appear very hard and durable, but I could not duplicate that finish.

We have just finished 12 sprayed coats of Epifanes gloss varnish on the teak so we'll see how that fares. We are also making covers for most of the teak which will probably do the trick keeping the UVs away.

Good luck with your spar.

[buhmkin]

Funny thing about Bristol, it appears to be a two part catlyzed polyurethane. We use the same thing at work, an Italian product made by Industrio Chemica Adriatica. That's not the funny part.

The funny part is that most of us today use acetone to clean the grain of teak before we seal and finish it.

Acetone and two part polyurethane finishes are a match made in hell, apparently. Any lingering acetone will repel the finish in a chorus of fish eye blemishes.

I'm no chemist, but the same week we figured this out at work (ran out of isobropyl) a neighbor on the docks was stripping his varnish. It was Bristol ($110 cdn, for maybe a quart?) and they'd prepped with acetone. The weren't happy when they put it on, and still not as they stripped it off.

[Old Bingey]

I have used Bristol Finish for the last three years on new boats and am very pleased with it. It is a two part acrylic/polyurethane. Before that, I used the Italian Stoppani two part and then, when Mr. Bruno Stoppani died, I used Rivale two part. Though both of them were extremely high gloss, hard and durable in the sun, they did not work well with a brush so I had to spray them. Bristol Finish works almost as well with a brush as old fashioned phenolic resin varnish and sands much sooner and better. I like it and will continue to use it until something better comes along. There is one thing about two part polyurethane that I have discovered. It works much better and lasts longer over a complete epoxy job and so does regular varnish.

[Bill Dodson]

Matt-
My experience with Bristol Finish pretty much follows what happened to Russ, even when I put CPES on first. BUT, I didn't know about the acetone problem that Buhmkin mentioned... that may be the reason, since I prepped with an acetone wipe-down right before applying the Bristol.

Bill