Stupid Knot Question

[Dave R]

Are the bowline and sheet bend essentially the same construction?

[SchoonerRat]

No.

Sheet bend is more closely related to the reef knot.

[SamSam]

Are the bowline and sheet bend essentially the same construction?

Here's a place with those knots animated...

http://www.animatedknots.com/indexboating.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

I grew up over by John Marshall HS. I liked the different seasons, except for a few months in the end of winter.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Are the bowline and sheet bend essentially the same construction?

Yes: - tie a bowline turn it over and look at the back.

If you cut the loop you could not tell if it had started life as a sheet bend or a bowline.

[Dave R]

Yes: - tie a bowline turn it over and look at the back.

If you cut the loop you could not tell if it had started life as a sheet bend or a bowline.

Thank you. I thought that might be the case.

So, bowline.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/weekender410/beaaea8e.jpg

and sheet bend (from the back).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/weekender410/5f7f05a8.jpg

From the same image.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/weekender410/07f40eb2.jpg

[SamSam]

Yes: - tie a bowline turn it over and look at the back.

If you cut the loop you could not tell if it had started life as a sheet bend or a bowline.

I think you're right.

[Dave R]

SamSam, I sent you a PM.

[thebrushand]

I don't know the answer to this as I only know one knot, the bowline. I learnt some trick moves on youtube. None of this rabbit up and down the hole, scrabbling round the tree milarky.

[Michael Beckman]

Exact same knot, the only difference is where the tail ends up.

(i spent 3 weeks sailing one summer tying and untying all sorts of knots to really learn what makes them work)

So.. does anyone else here know how to tie a double constrictor knot in the middle of a line? ;)

[SchoonerRat]

Exact same knot, the only difference is where the tail ends up.

(i spent 3 weeks sailing one summer tying and untying all sorts of knots to really learn what makes them work)

So.. does anyone else here know how to tie a double constrictor knot in the middle of a line? ;)Put a bunch of loops in the middle of the line, do the right over and under and voila. I haven't done that in years, and I can't quite get it to work now, but I use the same technique for a clove hitch all the time. Great for quickly tying a heaving line to your monkey's fist.

I've never notice that resemblance between a sheetbend and a bowline. The only time I ever tie a sheet bend is with two lines of different thickness. Even now it's kinda hard for me to see it.

[Michael Beckman]

You start out making a clove hitch, then you flip it around a bit and it turns out right.

i learn to tie stuff by untying it usually

[Kaa]

By the way, oh the knot experts, what's a good alternative to a reef knot (aka square knot) when you need to maintain some tension on both ends of the line you're tying?

Kaa

[Jay Greer]

Its called an "outside bowlin." Not to be trusted!
Jay

[Jay Greer]

By the way, oh the knot experts, what's a good alternative to a reef knot (aka square knot) when you need to maintain some tension on both ends of the line you're tying?

Kaa
Karrick Bend
Jay

[Michael Beckman]

By the way, oh the knot experts, what's a good alternative to a reef knot (aka square knot) when you need to maintain some tension on both ends of the line you're tying?

Kaa

In what usage? square knots are horrid for bending two lines together.. I only use them for tying stuff down (sail ties, reef points and such). A great bend is the zeppelin bend.. simple to tie and very strong. If the lines are different diameter, i use a double sheet bend.

and i cant remember how to tie the carrick bend for the life of me. i can never remember decorative knots.. and thats what it tends to be for me.

[rbgarr]

I find the carrick bend to be a tough one to tie when trying to maintain tension on both lines as you tie the knot.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

By the way, oh the knot experts, what's a good alternative to a reef knot (aka square knot) when you need to maintain some tension on both ends of the line you're tying?

Kaa

The reef/square knot is a damnably unreliable thing - very bad news if the load is intermittent - thats where "Shake out a reef" comes from.

[Jay Greer]

True, the carrick bend is a tough one to tie when the lines are under tension.
The main advantage of the knot is that is symetrical and very stable when used for joining two lines of different diameters. The bitter ends should exit on opposing sides of the knot. It is also the basis of a very attractive lanyard knot known as the English Rose Knot.
Jay

[Kaa]

Yes, I know the reef knot is unreliable under varying load, but as far as I know it's fine to finish off lashings.

But I'm still interested to find out what people use to join two lines when both are under some (not too much) tension and you want them to stay that way -- under tension. Finishing off a lashing is a simple example. Another one is, say, a boat cover with a ring hitch through the grommet and two ends which you need to tie to an eye of some sort. Or you have some kind of a big bundle that's too big for constrictors and you just want to pass the line around it once and tie it off.

The carrick bend I was always told is for big hawsers.

Kaa

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I often use some variation of the "Truckers Hitch" - or a Loop, thread through and rolling hitch thing.

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

rolling hitch? or two taunt line hitches? I use the taunt line hitch whenever I have a line under tension that needs to stay that way.

[Kaa]

I'm not expressing myself clearly.

I'm not looking for a hitch -- I'm looking for a bend. I have two ends, often of the same line, that are under some tension. I want to tie them together while maintaining that tension.

For example, let's say I have a largish bundle (like a rolled inflatable). I also have a short length of a line, enough to go around it once. I pass the line around the bundle, pull on both ends, and now have to tie them together while not allowing the line to slack.

A reef knot is easy, but has drawbacks. It's possible to make complicated arrangements (e.g. make a bowline on one end and convert the problem into a hitch, not a bend problem -- and then you can also make a trucker's hitch, etc. etc.), but they are complicated. I'm looking for something simple, easy, but better than a reef knot.

Kaa

[Dave R]

You need another person to put a finger on the crossing while you tie the knot. :D

Four or five years ago, while first reading The Rigger's Apprentice, I came across a little think about a knot for tying shoes. Perhaps it would work in your example, Kaa.

I think it is called the Purple Parrot Knot or something like that. It starts with an overhand knot with a second crossing. Then the ends are made into loops as you would normally but the loop and the opposite tail are passed through much as you would pass the ends in a reef knot. Once it is snugged up it is tight and doesn't loosen on its own. A pull on one of the ends and out it comes.

I've been tying my shoes that way since I learned it and we've always tied our son's shoes with that knot. They don't come out while he's running around and playing but they can be untied without getting out a spike or a nut pick. The latter was the comoon knot untying tool around the house when I was growing up.

Edited to add: although it is done a bit differently than the way I learned it, I think, except for the second crossing on the overhand knot, this is the same thing. http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/ianknot.htm

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

well, what I use is a simple slip knot... tie the first over-under like you would if you are tying your shoes, that's when you get your tension, on the next over-under just push a loop through, not the bitter end. Holds tight until you tug on the bitter end. Works for me when tying down a sail, tucking in a reef, lashing a tarp...

The other knot I was trying to describe would work, but it isn't as simple, but, it should hold under a much greater load, and it is pretty much guaranteed not to ever come completely undone.

http://www.greatsoftware.net/sailing/two_tautlines.jpg

These are the tails of two separate lines tied tautline style around each other.

[boylesboats]

Aaaaah just tie a simple "granny knot" and be done over with..

[ChrisBen]

The other knot I was trying to describe would work, but it isn't as simple, but, it should hold under a much greater load, and it is pretty much guaranteed not to ever come completely undone.Camel hitch, rolling hitch, safety harness hitch, picket line hitch and a few other names.

[Dale Genther]

A little off the subject, but still about knots. When anchoring I've been using a chain hook to attach my nylon snubber line to the anchor chain. This works OK, exceot for this past weekend when the hook somehow unhooked itself from the chain. I know I've seen a knot (hitch?) that I don't remember the name of, that can be used to tie the nylon snubber line to the chain. Anyone know of this knot and where I can find instructions on tying it?

[SchoonerRat]

I'm not expressing myself clearly.

I'm not looking for a hitch -- I'm looking for a bend. I have two ends, often of the same line, that are under some tension. I want to tie them together while maintaining that tension.

For example, let's say I have a largish bundle (like a rolled inflatable). I also have a short length of a line, enough to go around it once. I pass the line around the bundle, pull on both ends, and now have to tie them together while not allowing the line to slack.

A reef knot is easy, but has drawbacks. It's possible to make complicated arrangements (e.g. make a bowline on one end and convert the problem into a hitch, not a bend problem -- and then you can also make a trucker's hitch, etc. etc.), but they are complicated. I'm looking for something simple, easy, but better than a reef knot.

KaaSounds like what you need is a surgeon's knot. It's tied just like a reef knot, but put an extra tuck in the first overhand knot. This will hold tension while you finish off the knot. If one extra tuck doesn't do it put in a second. I've never needed more than that.