White Pine at the Big Orange place

[Bill Baillie]

I have a question about a source of materials for boat building.
Just what are the chances that the white pine sold at the big orange place and others of its' kind, is really white pine? By that I mean Pinus Strobus. Further to that, for most boat building purposes, does it really matter?
And further still, what about other woods such as mahogany, white oak and cherry? Are they really as advertised?
Just one more...what the hell is "white wood"?

[Jack Heinlen]

I'll bet it's a western pine, Pinus ?. It looks very similar and is avaiable in wide clear widths, and rots like tissue paper. If you can't figure it out for sure, don't use it.

Pretty hard to fake the others, though there are all kinds of things that are called mahogany, and white oak can be confused with red if you don't know what to look at. And I don't know what white wood is.

[ 10-24-2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[NormMessinger]

I've not seen Sugar Pine Pinus lambertiana for sale except in small quantities at high prices for years. Are there other five-needled (white) pines of commercial value in the west?

[Bob Smalser]

"White Wood" refers to Yellow Birch where I grew up. Similar properties to Black Walnut except for color, shrinkage and rot resistance. But could also be one of a half dozen other birches that aren't as strong.

What is sold as "White Pine" could be one or more of 7 or so different species, including Western White Pine (Pinus monticola) which rivals it's eastern cousin in heartwood durability.

Regarding pines and birches, which often grow in mixed stands, unless you cut and mill the tree yourself or know the guy who did...it's a crapshoot.

[ 10-24-2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Jack Heinlen]

Could be wrong Norm, I haven't looked for pine in a lumberyard for years. I do know, twenty years ago, that even here in Maine there was stuff being marketed as 'White Pine' that wasn't Pinus strobus. It was wide and clear and relatively cheap. Could be it's not being sawn nearly so much now. And thanks for the name.

[edsr]

Don't you just love it "white wood". The stuff big orange sells under that label in my area is, I think, hemlock.

edsr

[Jack Heinlen]

Okay, here we go with the durability issue agin. smile.gif Norm, you've got the handbook, the one by the US Government related to boat and ship timbers, don't ya? Is Sugar Pine rated?

Durability, when I learned, was something close to lore rather than science, and I learned that the Western White Pine wasn't any good. It seems so much depends: right down to old growth v new, micro-climate etc.

Second growth Eastern White Pine is considered less durable than old growth, which is not available. Yet I've seen lovely second growth, and used it in boats, and haven't worried about it.

Where's Norm with that manual? Or maybe Bob has it.

[ 10-24-2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Bob Smalser]

Aha! "White wood" out west is indeed, either hemlock or one of the lighter-colored true firs...the logs don't get separated at the mills beyond that and are sold as "HemFir".

So I guess it depends on whether your "whitewood" is either a hard or soft wood.

And don't ask about domestic "Ironwood"....a real guessing game.

[ 10-24-2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Durability in pines and others often has as much to do with ring density in the heartwood as it does to species, within limits.

The books rate E.White, and Yellow (Longleaf/Slash) as "moderately" resistant along with DF.

Sugar and all the remainder are lumped under "slightly or nonresistant".

But no sapwood of any species is resistant...that means that second-growth, fast-growth wood ain't as good because of sapwood and the limited percentage of resistant latewood compared to tight-grained stock.....and tight-grained W.White Pine (and maybe Sugar Pine...dunno) has been used successfully for boats...along with tight-grained W. Hemlock in cold Alaska, where trees grow slow and they don't have the choices we do.

[ 10-24-2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Torna]

At least out here, Ironwood is pretty well defined as Hop Hornbeam. Best firewood going. Not much other use that I know of other than that the bird folks encourage us not to cut it all down 'cause it's an important food source in the forest.

-leif

[George Roberts]

I don't know how much white pine is being sold now.

I do know it is available in Northern Michigan as trees up to 48" dbh.

It is perferred to red pine only for appearance sake. White pines tend to drop their branches sooner and also tend to have fewer pitch pockets.

[Chris Gerkin]

In my area the orange store sells SYP southern yellow pine and it is OK. I do not use white wood, it is a lot like drinking "light beer".

[stephen m]

At this point I wouldn't use ANY white pine for an exterior application, let alone a boat. How sad is that? Of course there are some exceptions, but by and large, in the world of houses I have had to go over to Spanish Cedar. And yes, it's about the number of rings per inch.
Traditionally one could depend on the characteristics of a particular wood based on its name and what that meant. These days you need to do your homework on a board by board basis.

[Donn]

Leif...another use for hornbeam. I have 2 pieces, which were 2" diameter trees which I grubbed out of the woods in Ohio 25 years ago. I trimmed the rootballs, and whittled a mallet out of one, which I use to this day. The other was simply cut with a longer handle, and it's the 'Priest' on my boat.

I handled my first piece of ipe today, at Holzbt's shop. I was amazed at it's weight, Roger was telling me how it ate tools and defied nails, so I took out my pocket knife and whittled it a bit. It's much heavier than hornbeam rootball, but it isn't as hard...by a long shot.

Edited to add: Roger has a stack of white pine and oak boards piled on one of his workbenches right now (no place else in this shop to stack it...literally). It's going to become a 14' skiff soon, and I'm going to photograph and post the process. Looking forward to it.

[ 10-24-2003, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Even here on the East Coast, "White Wood", has, for as long as I can remember (which, granted, is not nearly as long as some folks around here), meant unspecified softwoods. Given what I recently paid for real "Eastern White Pine" at a hardwood lumber dealer I doubt much real white pine is making into Orange Box type places. I don't remember the exact price but it was more than some of the lower cost hardwoods.

It seems to me that white pine is, at least these days, usually used for things like thwarts, where strength is not a big issue, and where rot is not that likely because of the location of the part in the boat. For applications like that I see no major reason not to use whatever softwood is available from the Orange Box, or any other local source. So, a key question becomes, what part of the boat do you want to use it for? I suppose the other advantage of true White Pine is that good quality White Pine is likely to be more stable and less prone to splitting than low-quality "white wood". That said, I would not rule out pine or white wood from the Orange Box for things like painted thwarts in a dory or similar small boat.

I have never seen white oak at an Orange Box type store. Are you seeing it there? It's pretty easy to tell white oak from red oak so if you are really seeing it at an Orange Box then I don't see any big reason not to use it as long as it is decent quality stock. However, the Orange Boxes near me usually just seem to sell Red Oak.

Cherry is very easy to identify and unlikely to be confused with anything else, so again, if you can find decent quality stuff at an Orange Box store then I see no reason not to use it.

I would be very wary of Mahogany from anyplace other than a reputible hardwood dealer because there are so many woods that get labeled as Mahogany.

[Jack Heinlen]

Jeez, you guys are makin' me think I need to get a woodmizer and saw up some of the Pinus strobus I've got growing here. I've got a half dozen nice trees, probably sixty years old and maybe thirty inches dbh. But they are open grown, and are gonna be knotty. Still, if good stock is so hard to come by...

I landed in a kind of Shangrila fifteen years ago: a little town in North central MA. Coming off a bad divorce I went into analysis and went to work with a really nice fellow who built and remodeled houses. He had a source for Pinus strobus one would, apparently, kill for today. Fifty cents, right off the saw, and wide, and a lot of it clear. Beautiful stuff that we hand planed into paneling and cabinets for a dozen different houses that wanted colonial flavor.

I wonder if those trees aren't still out there, and it's just the culture of the woods and sawyer that have declined in the ensuing years?

We had a guy in town who's business was called 'Trust the Horse'. He had a small mill, but also a brace of draft horses that twitched logs. He's a consultant the last I heard; community development, or some such, and hasn't a horse in sight. :rolleyes:

[Harry Miller]

I'm pretty sure that here in Ontario white-wood is mostly poplar with the possibility of whatever else is hanging around.

[Bob Smalser]

One thing we shouldn't forget....especially we geezers born in the first half of the previous century...that the world has only recently become a very small place.

The rural jargon and speach accents of coastal New Jersey were very different from the mountains of Penna as a kid....and moving to New Hampshire and later South Carolina was like going to the moon....let alone anywhere further West.

[ 10-24-2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Ron Williamson]

In Ontario,if they say White Pine,it's White Pine.
Otherwise,it's probably Red or Jack/Lodgepole Pine,especially if it's unspecified.
Whitewood is often poplar/aspen like Harry said.
R
Ps.Where's Sherbourne Township?

[DickB]

I seem to recall that lots of the dories built in Massachusetts had pine lapstrakes, and (I've mentioned this before, bear with me) when looking for bottom, bilge, top, decking for our Fiddlehead canoe, the designer, Harry Bryan, said that local white pine would be fine because "we'll be hanging the boat upside down from the rafters every evening, right?"--it'll be drying out every day. So, from that (and thinking of stacks of dories upside down on a mothership's deck) I'd say there's a place for these "white woods" that are really pine. Truth (wah?) is that at Home DePo (my wife likes the French pronunciation to properly get a shock when entering that vast cavern of merchandising) there is no way of knowing what is what short of a magnifing glass, a razor knife and a handbook on fiber structures. Personally I'm committed to seeking, finding, and nurturing local small time sawyers who can tell a hemlock from a spruce, and a pine from a sigh.

[Bruce Taylor]

What Ron said.

[Art Read]

I wonder how much the quality of dimensional wood sold at the box stores varies from region to region. I've talked with people who've claimed to have made some pretty good "scores" picking through their stacks, but I don't know... Out here, I've bought some stuff from 'em, (treated lumber for my cradle, cheap, pine 1 x 6 for my molds, various trim moldings and suchlike for SWMBO's "honey do" projects) but I'd never consider using anything I've seen in their racks for a boat. They do have some pretty nice looking cedar, (Western red, I assume, but they don't say...) that they market for decks and fencing, but it ain't cheap. As for their "construction" lumber, just looking at the difference in grain structure between what they have and what I see at the kind of places where you can find good "boat lumber", it's obvious that the big chains are getting their stuff from the "lowest bidder". Second growth? Looks like "third" growth to me! I picked up an eight foot hunk of 1 x 6 once with growth rings that approached a half inch apart and grasped the edges in both hands. A hard twist of my wrists and it split into two pieces along it's entire length! The clerk who happened to see it just sort of rolled his eyes... They DO have a "boutique" isle with the fancy, name brand wood. Oak, (no distinction between red or white) Mahogany, (again, no species) Cherry, etc. But it's all sold in short, (4 foot, 6 foot?) narrow, (6 inches?) pieces with a bar code price tag. No buying by the board foot there! It's all beautifully milled and if I'm not mistaken, lightly oiled and "polished". Seems like they're marketing it to the folks who want to put up a bookshelf and don't want to have to cut anything. The place serves a purpose, but I can't see it as a potential "bargain" source of boat lumber...

[ 10-25-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Mrleft8]

Round here, "White wood" is usually Tulip Poplar (Liriodendron Tulipiferus). Not a "true" Poplar. Sometimes "White wood" is Basswood. In general, it's any soft hardwood.

[Bruce Taylor]

All true, Art.

The wood business is strange, alright. We have a Home Depot in Hull, just down the road. They stock Western Red cedar (thuja plicata) for decking and the prices are as ridiculous as you'd expect, given that these knot-ridden scraps had to travel across an entire continent to get here.

Now, we happen to live where Eastern White cedar (thuja occidentalis) is plentiful and cheap. It's an excellent wood for decks, and the hardwooking sawyers out here can't get better than 80 cents a b.f. for it. But this Home Depot doesn't carry it, presumably because their purchasing and distribution structure doesn't permit much regional variation. When I think of the energy that was squandered dragging that low-grade western red out here I feel a bit queasy.

Don't get me started on the absurdities of the mahogany trade.

[Bob Smalser]

Cut your own....we always did....one foolproof solution. No shortage of logs available from tree service guys and local loggers/farmers in most locales.

http://www.baileys-online.com/Mill.htm

6 grand for a 6" Lucas:

http://www.baileys-online.com/images/Lucas8.jpg
http://www.lucasmill.com.au/images/Pic005.gif

I can't find the price on the smallest Woodmizer...but it's about the same:

http://www.woodmizer.com/welcome.html

http://www.woodmizer.com/Graphics/images/LT15action.jpg

As is the Timberking (Belsaw):

http://www.timberking.com/html/sawmills-by-timberking.html

http://www.timberking.com/images/1220-large.jpg

And the old man of the portable mills...the Mobile Dimension "Volkswagon" mill...the fastest but most wasteful...best for framing lumber:

http://www.mobilemfg.com/

http://www.mobilemfg.com/graphics/greenlarge.jpg

Or buy a used mill for a third less than a new one:

http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/index.htm

Two 8" Lucas in the 6-7 grand range and a whole bunch of small band mills.

Use the money you're paying for your gym membership....you won't need a gym any more.

[ 10-25-2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[ahp]

When I took shop in JHS lo these many years ago, we used "white wood". I somehow was told that it was tulip. It is harder than white pine and relativily knot free. It takes stain well. I still have a few small things that I made with it.

Tulip trees grow very tall in the North East. They are perhaps the tallest species east of the Mississippi. We had several on our property that must have gone up at least 60 feet and the first 30 were free of branches, and they weren't through growing.

[Bill Baillie]

Thanks for all the input. I remember a line from the Bud Macintosh book about how red oak gets whiter the closer it gets to water. Looks like I can avoid the Big Orange places for the most part.
To Ron Williamson: to find Sherbourne township, you head north from Toronto and just when you reach the most southern tip of Algonquin Park turn left. The names of the counties and townships have been reworked so much in the last few years that I am no longer sure if I am still in Sherbourne. It may be Lawrence or Nightindale or Algonquin or some other thing, but I still use Sherbourne on my mailing address and Canada Post finds it. My location is on Slipper lake about 15 miles from Dorset.

[Ron Williamson]

Ha,I'm in the Town of Saugeen Shores,though Southampton will always be here.
R