Friday reflections

[outofthenorm]

I'm in the beginning phase of building a new small boat and I've been musing about costs. I thought I'd share and see if anyone has anything to add. The boat is Mik Storer's Beth (http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/beth.html), the Kamikaze Sailing Canoe, which is about the simplest, least expensive boat out there that still delivers high performance. My approach is to build her quick and (a bit) dirty, saving money everywhere I can. I even accept the fact that with that approach, the hull won't last as long as it might, but that's okay with me.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Beth/Beth8.jpg

Here's how the costs add up (these are rounded up or down for simplicity):

Mik's excellent plans $120 (postage included)
Hull materials (using a lot of stuff I have on hand already) $100
Glue, epoxy, paint $135
Hardware (rudder gear, deckplates, screws, bolts) $100
6 spars (big-box clear pine) $100
Sails $120 (building my own with Todd Bradshaw's advice and a copy of his fantastic book "Canoe Rig")
Launching Dolly $100 (built from a second hand jogging stroller.)
New PFD $120
Line for halyards and sheets - $30
Misc. $50

It adds up to - gulp - darn close to $1000. And the truth is that doing it "properly" - meaning buying sails from a real sailmaker like Todd, using marine ply, epoxy rather than PL, etc - would add at least another $700. Understand that I'm not complaining - not a bit. I'm going to have a killer little performance canoe when I'm done, for under $1K. I'm just observing how fast costs add up - and this is for a very small project.

I've also been working on the re-fit of Fiddlers Green for 3 years now and haven't even recorded, let alone added up the costs, and I'm sure compared to what I've spent there, this is a drop in the bucket. But I have to admit, it's quite a bit more than the "few hundred bucks" I told SWMBO it would be when I started :D

In the end, I'm thinking that paying $1500 (or more) for something like this little sweetie on ebay Beach Pea (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Wooden-Boat-Beach-Pea-Built-at-Plimoth-Plantation-13_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26434QQihZ015QQitemZ 250277017391QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW) is a serious bargain.
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/5/3/2/4/5/webimg/157566226_tp.jpg

Anyway, that's what's on my mind this morning. What say you?

[switters]

Small boat expenses

cost of small boat building materials and plans.....$1,000
hours spent building at $25/hr............................$2,500
cost of saying "my boat, I built it" .....................Priceless

[Canoez]

The other thing to keep in mind with a project like this is that there is always some "cost creep" for things that don't go the way you planned or material that you forgot in the original estimate. The eBay purchase is sort of fixed cost - then again, you might need paint, repair hardware, etc...

[Art Read]

Come back when the project is finished. I'd be willing to bet that your very reasonable estimates are off by at least at a factor of two. No good reason. It's just the law.;)

(P.S. It will also take take THREE times as long as you think it will.... Same reason.)

[Yeadon]

You tend to pay out in many, many small installments when you build a little boat, so, why bother to even track the cost? Build it, go sailing.

Can't wait to see photos.

[Kaa]

If you want to look at the boat/money ratio, buying a used boat is almost always the best bet, while building a new one from scratch is madness (especially if you properly price your own labor).

You build a boat because you like building boats, not because it's a cheap way of getting one -- it is actually a very expensive way of getting one.

Kaa

[outofthenorm]

Art, I totally agree on the time x 3 factor :D, but those are actual costs. I can be a serious thrift-oholic when I set my mind to it. I've built the sails and rig already - they're ready to go. I have all the components for the dolly, the hardware is already ordered from Duckworks, and I have purchased the hull building materials (with extras). All that's left is paint, a litre of epoxy and a PFD. Pictures will definitely follow, although I think some of my choices may drive Mik nuts if he's watching :eek:

- Norm

[Nanoose]

close your eyes, Mik...

[Gary E]

Hull materials (using a lot of stuff I have on hand already) $100
Glue, epoxy, paint $135

Sounds lile putting lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig
Use the BEST materials you can aford...
You'l spend the same amount of time using either junk or the best... and when your done whatcha got? good stuff or a pretty pig?

[outofthenorm]

Use the BEST materials you can aford...
?

In this case, I am. The stuff on hand is high-ring count, old growth DF, epoxy, FG tape, bronze ring nails and the like. You might want to save your gratutitous criticism until you see the final result.

- Norm

[JimD]

At least you intend to buy a decent PFD. It might come in handy ;). Ok, seriously, I'm going to do my best to talk you out of this. And I am not against cheap throw-it-together-with-door-skins building. Just not this design. A six hour canoe, fine. A pirogue you doodled up yourself just to see if you could, fine. But this is a lot more boat than that. I bet you will spend a couple hundred hours of your precious time on Earth on this project and as others have already pointed out it will cost you double your estimates anyway. So at least spring for a few sheets of decent meranti marine ply if nothing else as it would be a shame to use the good materials you already have on hand on anything less.
. Good luck.

[StevenBauer]

Is it just me or is today only Thursday?


:D


Steven

[Yeadon]

Awwww ...

[outofthenorm]

Concerns noted, and believe me I'm going in eyes wide open. This is far from my first boat and I know the difference between shoddy and inexpensive. Take it as read that strength and integrity are first priorities, way ahead of anything that consumes time for its own sake - like using varnish instead of paint for example. My goal this time is to get on the water as fast as possible, in a boat I had some fun building. (I've been re-building my cutter for 3 years - I need to get some water under me)

As I said, those costs are not estimates, they are actual.

The only serious compromise I'm making is in attempting to make my own sails. I've had excellent advice and it's easier than it seems once you get going. I'm fussy about sail shape, so I might not be happy with the results, but I like the what I've done so far. Besides, if they are complete rags, Todd B is only a phone call away. C'mon guys, lighten up. Not every boat has to be built for the ages.;) Couple of hundred hours? Not by a long shot. I started 10 day ago and in between lots of other things, I have the rig, sails, dagger board, trunk and rudder done. The hull is the easy part. :D

- Norm

[outofthenorm]

Is it just me or is today only Thursday?


:D


Steven

That's really funny. No, it's Thursday in Canada too. Just feels like Friday :o

- Norm

[David G]

I think it's Friday at Mik's house.

Norm, I hope you enjoy sailing on the edge. My understanding is that Beth is a screamer and not for the inattentive or faint of heart.

I hope your line budget/scheme included some low-stretch for the halyards & downhauls. Mik's rigging depends on (as he calls it) being a bit vicious with the luff tension. I'd think that'd be especially critical for Beth.


"Human nature is not of itself vicious" -- Thomas Paine

[paladin]

Norm....I decided to let someone else build a boat like that for me......If you have seen photos of the 11 foot peapod on Jay Benfords web site...that was mine....I gave it to Jay as it was too big and heavy for me to handle.......and it was about $5K 15 years ago.... so good luck...

[Art Read]

Wish I had a nickle for every piece of sandpaper, "cheap" throw-away brush, roll of paper towels, new unforeseen tool, can of solvent, vacume cleaner filter, gallon of gas buying that one odd size bolt and all the make-up "nights out on the town" for SWIUTHTO that my boat cost me!:)

[Art Read]

BTW... There's no good reason to spend $120 for a lifevest for this boat etcept vanity. You don't need "SOSpenders". Plenty of comfortable vests out there for twenty bucks or so that will do the same job without the leap of faith required that they will, in fact, inflate ten years from now when you REALLY need it!
Buy one if you want one, and they ARE nice, but don't coun't it as part of the cost of the boat...

[John B]

Is it just me or is today only Thursday?


:D


Steven

No, you're wrong, its Friday.... here anyway:D. I'm just so pleased ( and I'm making a giant leap and taking some credit here) that my earlier forays over the last few years into the traditional 'friday boat pic' (which was always thursday for you guys) , is now slipping into common usage.
Thanks Norm, between you and I , we'll change the worl.... er , date.


As for the boat.. build it , it looks like a rocket, looks like it'll demand respect and skill before it'll let you sail it, a high spirited filly. What price class.

[outofthenorm]

... looks like it'll demand respect and skill before it'll let you sail it, a high spirited filly. What price class.

:D That's why I need a new expensive, keep-me-afloat-no-matter-what-PFD - and not the inflatable kind :D. I figure I'll spend a fair amount of time in the water before she'll accept me. Truth is, I'm not worried that I might not be enough of a builder to do this, but I'm seriously worried if I'm enough of a small boat sailor to do this! It could be embarrassing. Oh well, nothing ventured ....

- Norm

[bamamick]

Not to pile on, but the only line you are going to find for $30 is going to come from WalMart. By looking at what you've got there I would estimate somewhere around $100-125.

The boat looks awesome.

Mickey Lake

[outofthenorm]

Norm, I hope you enjoy sailing on the edge. My understanding is that Beth is a screamer and not for the inattentive or faint of heart.



I do, I do. That's the sole reason I picked her. It would have been pretty easy to pick up a tamer boat locally, but where's the fun in that?




I hope your line budget/scheme included some low-stretch for the halyards & downhauls. Mik's rigging depends on (as he calls it) being a bit vicious with the luff tension. I'd think that'd be especially critical for Beth.



Fortunately it didn't have to. I have a small bundle of 3/16 Spectra tucked away that I can use for halyards. This is where being a long-term scrounger pays off. ;)

- Norm

[John B]

Buy one of those buoyancy vest jackets.. looks like a windbreaker.
Hell, you're going to be wet and cold anyway.:D

Not as wet and cold as Mickey in his IC though .
eh.

[outofthenorm]

By looking at what you've got there I would estimate somewhere around $100-125.

The boat looks awesome.

Mickey Lake

Thanks Mickey. You're right about the real cost, of course, but I have enough good stuff in the bosun's locker to do most of it. Hence the low budget item.

Let me say clearly, that my budget doesn't reflect the real cost, just what I have to spend now.

- Norm

[Kaa]

:D That's why I need a new expensive, keep-me-afloat-no-matter-what-PFD - and not the inflatable kind :D.

:-) Cheap PFDs keep you afloat just as good as the expensive ones. The difference is in fit and fanciness.

Given that you operate under severe budget constraints, I don't really see what's wrong with a basic $25 PFD.

Kaa

P.S. By the way, 3/16 halyards might be a bit hard on your hands...

[Gary E]

In this case, I am. The stuff on hand is high-ring count, old growth DF, epoxy, FG tape, bronze ring nails and the like. You might want to save your gratutitous criticism until you see the final result.

- Norm

My approach is to build her quick and (a bit) dirty, saving money everywhere I can.

I even accept the fact that with that approach, the hull won't last as long as it might, but that's okay with me.


Still sounds like lipstick on a pig...

Why dont you use the best materials so it will last ?
Your labor is no more using junk or the better.
When it starts falling apart, you'l remember this "it's ok" ?

Good luck

[outofthenorm]

:-) Cheap PFDs keep you afloat just as good as the expensive ones. The difference is in fit and fanciness.

Given that you operate under severe budget constraints, I don't really see what's wrong with a basic $25 PFD.

Kaa

Fit matters to me because I'll have to stay lively to sail this boat - and I'll likely be getting a lot of use out of it! The PFDs available around here start at about $35 for the kind you give to guests you don't like, and run up to $250 or so for lime-green glow-in-the-dark super vests with enough pockets, lanyards and flap-doodles to outfit a flying circus. Not to worry though ... this time of year, someone will have a sale on!

:-)
P.S. By the way, 3/16 halyards might be a bit hard on your hands...

I know, but 1/2 inch would look silly. ;) Seriously though, Mik actually specs 1/8 inch for the main and 3/32 for the mizzen. Tiny stuff. But I have the 3/16, so I'll use that.

- Norm

[outofthenorm]

When it starts falling apart, you'l remember this "it's ok" ?

Good luck

When it starts falling apart, I'll build a new, different boat, and enjoy it. Nothing lasts forever Gary. And yes, that will be OK with me then - just as it is now.

- Norm

[bamamick]

Sounds like you've got it thought out pretty well. She looks like an awesome boat.

I have to go tomorrow and get some stuff to take with me to New York next week to pick up and race this new/ancient Finn. A small spool of 1/4" line, one big bullet as a main block, a couple of cam cleats, some bungee, whatever else I can think of. Probably $150 to $200 for not enough stuff to fill the palm of my hand. Drives you crazy, but it's a part of it.

Mickey Lake

[Canoez]

Concerns noted, and believe me I'm going in eyes wide open. This is far from my first boat and I know the difference between shoddy and inexpensive. Take it as read that strength and integrity are first priorities, way ahead of anything that consumes time for its own sake - like using varnish instead of paint for example. My goal this time is to get on the water as fast as possible, in a boat I had some fun building. (I've been re-building my cutter for 3 years - I need to get some water under me)

As I said, those costs are not estimates, they are actual.

The only serious compromise I'm making is in attempting to make my own sails. I've had excellent advice and it's easier than it seems once you get going. I'm fussy about sail shape, so I might not be happy with the results, but I like the what I've done so far. Besides, if they are complete rags, Todd B is only a phone call away. C'mon guys, lighten up. Not every boat has to be built for the ages.;) Couple of hundred hours? Not by a long shot. I started 10 day ago and in between lots of other things, I have the rig, sails, dagger board, trunk and rudder done. The hull is the easy part. :D

- Norm

Norm - enjoy the boat and be sure to report back on her "high spirited" performance! :)

[Hwyl]

I agree with everything you've said Norm, as for the lifejacket, yes get a good one, it affords the manoeuvrability you'll need with this boat.

I bought a boat from a friend for a $100 about 15 years ago, it was awful (I think the design is a "Clancy"). I let it rot in the corner of the garden. The marine ply broke down at the same rate as the Luan. It filled with rainwater and froze several times before it really let go. I think with minimum care any plywood boat would last 20 years.

[paladin]

Too bad you are in Canuckastan......I betcha if ya backed up to my place we could find some large samples of M.A.S. epoxy, some cpes, a few usable scraps and other stuff stacked around....

[outofthenorm]

Yer a hell of a guy Chuck and the offer is generous. It really is too bad, but since it's about 20 hours driving round trip and 2 border crossings, best to give the good stuff to someone local. Lot's of folks could use it!

- Norm