Installing vertical surface veneer

[breezy]

I've read opinions on a couple other threads about applying veneer on a vertical panel. Choice of adhesive is not a big issue but coming up with a sound way to keep the veneer tightly in contact with the substrate is challenging. I've read that stapling is being used but I have concerns about that if using epoxy as I suspect it would be very difficult to break free the staple legs. I also read some opinions on using tiny brads but it seems they would be difficult to install when working with epoxy because of working times.

Has anyone had experience using any other methods or clamping techniques? What have your experiences been using staples, brads or anything else with epoxy?

Has anyone vacuum bagged a project like this and how exactly did you configure your bagging arrangement? What size pump did you use?

Please be detailed in your answers.

[dennisbur]

Is veneer going to be indoors or subjected to the weather?
If indoors you can use white glue and a laundry iron on high dry heat. Works as fast as contact cement but allows you to get your veneer properly aligned before glueing. Just lightly spread the glue over both surfaces and then apply the heat. Sand and finish and then you're done.

Outdoors sounds like it needs creative clamping or you can try the above technique with a waterproof Polyurethane glue like Gorilla. Let us know if that works.

[5.5 Meter]

You are not providing much information to start with. But I’ll give you an example of where we used a veneer on a cabin side. Side is long leaf yellow pine and we wanted the look of mahogany.

We used stables around the perimeter (top and bottom of which eventually got coved with trim) and then were able to run boards for and aft that we could use for applying pressure between the port holes. These boards stood off so that plywood could be slid in between them and the cabin side with space to allow for some wedges (plywood up against veneer, then wedges against the boards. The boards were held in place via threaded rod through the port holes with a backing block on the inside.

If you use staples, don’t use just staples. Said another way, have a sacrificial block of 1/8 or ¼ ply that the staple will get burred into. Make sure with everything that you wrap with plastic or shipping tape (plywood for press or blocks) to prevent them sticking to the veneer if the epoxy weeps through.

[gert]

On ironing veneer:

use the Tight Bond yellow glue

apply to both surfaces and let dry; preferably over night

use an iron as above, and a maple rubbing stick about 3" wide

and work fast; lots of heat and lots of hard rubbing.

don't try to do huge areas at one time; only an area about the size of a gallon paint can lid.

This works very very well but takes practice. I have even done "sketch face" stile & rail man doors with great success.

DO NOT do this with maple veneer though; trust me.

[Todd D]

If it is inside, just use contact cement like you would with formica. Just remember to use some wax paper under the veneer when you are doing the final alignment. As you pull the wax paper use a roller to press the veneer into place.

[gert]

Sorry: just use contact cement like you would with formica

ONLY if the veneer is phonelic backed. They have yet to make a contact cement that will hold veneer down flat enough to look good under a finish. The veneer will eventualy win the argument with the adhesive and start to lift. If you can make a "3 ply" veneer sandwich in a press and then glue it to your substrate with waterbased contact, go for it. But only apply one coat of contact per surface, not two like with solvent based.

I beleive at 56 I have made 90% of the mistakes possible in woodworking trade and should hit 100% in the next 9 years ;)

[Stevedore]

I beleive at 56 I have made 90% of the mistakes possible in woodworking trade and should hit 100% in the next 9 years ;)


:) I am a noob so my percentage is way down. But your record is impressive. Keep us posted.

[Spokaloo]

Why not just vacuum bag?

E

[Jay Greer]

For veneer jobs on bulkheads I have used Thickened epoxy that is applied with a notched trowel, followed by stainless staples that are shot through quater inch plywood caul blocks with wax paper between for release. The stainless stables are strong and easy to remove. The plywood blocks distribute the pressure and protect the veneer during removal with either a tack puller or small water pump pliers.
Jay

[will tracey]

Jay, I'd like to veneer the bulkhead of my Wianno Senior with mahogany. Eventually I'd like to do the centerboard trunk and the cockpit sides as well. I've never installed veneer before. What size staples would you use, where do you buy them, and what do you use to shoot them in? Also, how big are the caul blocks, how many would you use, and what sort of spacing? And finally, once you pull the staples, how and with what do you fill the holes they leave behind?

Thanks,

[Todd Bradshaw]

If you shop around and buy the smallest staple gun you can find, it will only cost about $10 and it will shoot tiny (1/4"-3/8" long) staples that have round legs and look very similar to office staples. You don't need any type of pad under them because these small guns don't have enough power to bury the crown part in the wood. They aren't difficult to pull out and have enough beef to hold the piece tight while the epoxy sets. The tiny round holes they leave will pretty much disappear during the final sanding and coating stages. Veneer thickness seems to have a marked effect on how it behaves when it hits the resin. Something in the 3/32" range is most likely going to resist curling better than really thin stuff. If your surface is well prepared and truly flat, you really don't need much filler in the resin at all. You can roll unthickened resin on the veneer piece and resin thickened just slightly on the hull (I used a little bit of milled cotton fibers). Too much filler just means that your veneer is floating on a bed of goo, rather than down tight and flat on the surface.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/fd682816.jpg

Once it's cured, you sand the top flat and finish it. I generally over-coat it with several thin roll and tip coats of epoxy, sand that flat and then varnish it. I don't have photos of the process on the boat, but I do on a veneered mandolin top. The sailboat got several roll and tip coats of Captain's Varnish. The mandolin got 19 sprayed coats of a water-based laquer which was then hand-sanded up through 12,000 grit and buffed with a diaper and polishing compound. That might be a bit much for a boat unless you REALLY like sanding and polishing.....:)

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/mandolin%20001%20copy.jpg
Veneer glued down with epoxy and epoxy coating done. Waiting for sanding.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/mandolin%20003%20copy.jpg
epoxy coats sanded, varnish sprayed, varnish sanded and then buffed.

[will tracey]

Thanks for the help. I think I can comfortably attempt my bulkhead and cockpit sides. Nice Guitar, Todd.

Best,

[will tracey]

I called a local hardwood distributor and they inform me that they have mahogany veneer that is 10 mil. thickness. I think that's about 1/10th of an inch, which is obviously thinner than 1/8th. Is this going to be thick enough for a bulkhead that honestly isn't perfectly fair? I'd like to have some structural rigidity to the piece but I think 1/4" (the other option) would be too thick. Ideas?

Thanks,

[ToddFwbf]

Weldbond works very nicely with the iron on technique. I've done 4' x 8' sheets of paper backed veneer with household iron on vertical surfaces that were curved. Really! It was a 2 man job, but the nice thing about the Weldbond is you have to wait for the glue to dry before applying iron to veneer. No muss, no fuss.

[Todd Bradshaw]

1/10" is thick enough, but it probably depends on just how far from being a fair surface it actually is. You can certainly use some thickened epoxy to fill small variations but it would be nice if a good portion on the veneer was sitting down snugly on a pretty flat surface.

[paladin]

I purchased rolls of bleached Russian Ash veneer to bond to the plywood for the interior of my boat....and fortunately did it flat....veneer face down ona sheet of formica, epoxy coated, coated the plywood, set it gently on the veneer and then added a few cement blocks to add some weight. on a couple of places we had to use the staples....I used a cheap hand tacker, then in the large surfaces used a piece of heavy ply pushed against the veneer with a piece if 2 x 4 about 2 feet long set vertically, then warped a lot of bungee cords from the side over the end of the 2 x 4 to the other side......it all worked out...

[will tracey]

The surfaces are pretty fair. I'm planning to do the bulkhead and the cockpit sides. They've been painted any number of times right over chips and what have you, and that's how it's unfair. I'm talking about just the paint itself, really. My plan is to try to strip and scrape it to get down to something the epoxy can bond well with, and in that process I'm expecting I might rough it up even further, hence the need to fill things out with some thickened epoxy. So far I'm getting the impression that if I use the 10 mil material (I think it's Sapele - it's billed as "African Mahogany"), stainless steel staples and caul blocks fastened say, every 6 - 8 inches either direction, I should be ok. I tried to attach pictures but the system won't let me. Todd, how did you paste those pics right into the text of your post?

Thanks

[Todd Bradshaw]

You need to have a place to host the pics (like a picture account somewhere or your own web space) and then you post the URL for the photo by placing it between bracketed "img" and "/img" bookends. The forum does not host photos for you, so you need your own space to keep them in but once their web address is placed between the bookends the forum will automatically pull up the photo. You also want to be sure that your photo has been edited into a reasonable size and fairly low resolution for things to work smoothly. A photo that's too small is of little value, but one that is so wide that people have to scroll across the screen to read a thread is very annoying. High resolution images take a long time to load for some folks and generally don't look much better than something adjusted to be quicker-loading and lower resolution.

[will tracey]

Thank you Todd. The first picture is our boat and the second picture is one I like the look of. As I said, I am planning to do the cockpit sides as well as the bulkhead. The teak cleats on the bulkhead will come off. I'll cut the mahogany trim at the inside edge of the seats back away from the bulkhead just enough to allow the veneer to slip between. There is trim at the top and bottom of the cockpit sides and the bulkhead which I will replace, and I'll shave off the old cleat on the aft end of the centerboard box. Once that's done I'll add mahogany around the box and add a new top so the whole thing looks something like the one in the second picture (except for the teak sole). To give credit, the second picture is the Cochenoe, Wianno Senior number 197 built in 2004. Our boat is number 111 built in 1947.

http://picasaweb.google.com/willt5059/VeneerRelated

Best,

[will tracey]

I checked out the 10 mil veneer a local supplier has (I live in Denver) and it is far too thin - its like paper. Does anyone have a suggestion as to where I might find something like 3/32" thick mahogany veneer, preferably Honduran? Or, does anyone have a suggestion as to what I might use as a 3/32" (or so) substrate, which, once the veneer has been glued to it, I could then epoxy to my bulkhead and cockpit sides?

Thanks,

[Jay Greer]

Try, Edensaw Woods in Port Townsend. My friend Ted Pike can most likely help you out. Ted is the guru of hard to find woods.
Jay

[gert]

Buy some 1/8" Ribbon Sapele, or African Mahogany marine ply; and be done with it.
http://www.westwindhardwood.com/price_marine_ply.php

[will tracey]

Thanks to you all for your help. I bought some 4 mil Okume plywood from Crosscut Hardwood in Portland, Oregon and they shipped it to my winter address in Colorado. I will use it to re-face the bulkhead, cockpit sides, and centerboard box. Here is the before. A lot of what should be bright is painted a maroon, which I imagine was intended to look like mahogany from a distance when first done. I started stripping the bulkhead but found epoxy, bondo, red-lead and any number of other things so I decided it best to cover up what I have to and replace or refinish the rest. Because I live in Colorado most of the year and the boat is in Cape Cod, I have very little time each spring and fall to work on cosmetics (or even structural repairs for that matter) as all the yearly painting and varnish work needs to be done. So, I'm doing what I can here and will ship the parts out ahead of time this spring.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/SLIOLg_nE5I/AAAAAAAAAT0/PJdYVi-OB4o/IMGP6475.JPG

[will tracey]

Spring 2008. Since I had already scraped and sanded part of the bulkhead and the trim around the companionway I ordered some green paint. Though I ordered semi-gloss they sent high-gloss and it turned out looking pretty bad. Plus, adding another color really didn't suit the boat. It was only after this that I thought of adding a veneer to the surfaces in order to have them be bright again. Oh, and yes, those are mahogany cup holders outside the coaming and no, I didn't install them. They were there when I bought the boat.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRf_hRcSEI/AAAAAAAAAcw/x5XSoDHK5Mg/IMGP4355.JPGhttp://lh5.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRkxNcATKI/AAAAAAAAAds/bRbwZWw-q40/IMGP5362.JPG

I removed the halyard cleats from the bulkhead, the two pieces of trim above those cleats, the baseboard and the trim up under the "butt cleats" (the seat-edge trim) the toeboard (area not shown in this photo), the old mainsheet cleat at the back of the centerboard box, the main centerboard cap, the cross piece across the companionway, and the forward centerboard cap. The I sanded everything, including stripping and wooding down all the trim associated with the companionway entrance and the slide tracks for the cover. I also had to install dutchmen where the cam cleats for the jib sheets were installed (blue masking tape in photo) as there was some slight rot due to improper installation.



This one shows where the toe-board was, and also a piece for the boom crutch in the aft port corner.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRk_cx-s-I/AAAAAAAAAd8/-qD1u0dRIak/IMGP5364.JPGhttp://lh4.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRlLeLC3aI/AAAAAAAAAeM/HpQrpK2rLIg/IMGP5403.JPG

And here (above) I've got stain and varnish on the companionway trim and the two pieces where the coaming meets the bulkhead. Also I've cut out and fit posterboard patterns for the bulkhead veneer. The centerboard trunk is also covered and sealed to keep air from drafting up through the trunk all winter which would dry it out, or so I've been told.


Pieces cut for a new centerboard cap. I ended up making another aft piece later after dropping it and causing it to break.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRmLz_26hI/AAAAAAAAAe4/CIsCFN7gN9o/s640/IMGP5748.JPG




These are the port and starboard panels cut from the 4 mil Okume ply. It is marine grade Joubert - quite nice. The holes for the storage compartments are under-cut. I'll scribe them and final cut them when I get them to the boat.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRmUESZDKI/AAAAAAAAAfI/vjamXeaLBQ8/s640/IMGP5751.JPG

[will tracey]

The bottom and top pieces of trim shown here came off the top of the bulkhead. The middle one is a new replacement for the existing one because it has so many holes and the crack that occurred when I ripped it out.http://lh5.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRmQdAD-_I/AAAAAAAAAfA/T9rVM9VbA84/s640/IMGP5750.JPG




Centerboard cap glued up.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRmbFesEOI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/i-CjZUrDsDw/s640/IMGP5838.JPG


And stained.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRmeeO_7aI/AAAAAAAAAfY/34IoxLQlmYg/s640/IMGP5891.JPG




Some of the parts put together in a mock-up. New bulkhead and cockpit-side panels, toeboard, and bulkhead trim.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRmoOME-2I/AAAAAAAAAfk/bFJ-TgBvXEY/IMGP6051.JPG




As well as baseboard trim, "butt-cleat" trim (which I'm re-using, it's the old stuff wooded down), the boomcrutch piece, a wood cap for the aft end of the centerboard box, and, of course, the now varnished centerboard cap. I ran the butt-cleat trim through the table saw to let out a kerf on the bottom of the back side so that the rest of it will lay flat against the existing cockpit sides - in other words, I needed to accomodate for the thickness of the new Okume. Had I not, the butt cleat trim pieces may have been pushed out such that they ended up either flush with or even proud of the butt cleats themselves.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_t-fko6aZ9sk/STRmtNxZj6I/AAAAAAAAAfs/Lc4gN-fG5uE/IMGP6052.JPG