Wooden Boat Sales Trends

[John Maxson]

While observing the variety of small craft offered at the Wooden Boat Show in Mystic, CT this summer, I was wondering what type of craft people are buying or seeking out. It seems like kayaks and other solo lightweight cartoppable craft are big in plastics, but is it the same for wood? I know the new rowing flattie that WoodenBoat magazine was selling at the show sold. A 14' with plenty of beam and stability. It was painted beige. Pretty boat, very traditional. Does anyone else know of other boats that sold at the show, or what people are really seeking?

[wtarzia]

The Chesapeake Light Craft company seems to be doing well with its kit boats. I wonder if that is a general phenomenon? Harris expands his line slowly and carefully, I would guess, and offers only the things that sell in an iffy market. And yet his latest kit boat is a substantial design. Did you see his "Pocketship" floating at dock? This is a nifty 14 foot cruiser with sitting headroom (your legs extend under the the self-bailing cockpit). It seems just light enough to tow behind a small car. If this boat sells, then perhaps that will indicate the market is ready for people who will insist on having very family-useable boats in a declining economy, and the people will be willing to exploit compact designs and sacrifice a few comforts. I hope that is true. I would like to believe in a sane society and a sustainable economy with sailboat liesure time and citizens keeping themselves in good enough shape (much of that is attitude) to do without 'second-house-on-the-water' comforts. Seeing all those Hummers launching 200 horsepower boats at the ramp has made it hard to see that vision clearly ;-) --Wade

[Thorne]

With any luck we should see an increase in 'sail and oar' boats, both via plans and finished boats. "Human-powered" craft may become more and more popular as the costs to government and individuals rises for fuel-powered craft. And not **everyone** wants to be a kayaker...

;0 )

Here in the West we are already seeing more high mountain lakes being limited to non-motorized craft, with even electric trolling motors banned on some.

[kenjamin]

Got to admit that Chesapeake Light Craft's Pocketship was looking mighty salty at the dock at this year's WoodenBoat Show at Mystic.
Having it as a kit does help you anticipate the cost better and also speeds the build along.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Pocketship.jpg

Still, I'd like to see how it would stack up against John Pruitt's No Frills 15 built from scratch as far as build cost and performance of the finished boats.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/NoFrills15.jpg

[Rick Tyler]

Since I'm not in the business it's hard for me to know for sure. Around here, practically all the home-built wooden boats are sea kayaks. There are still quite a few larger wooden craft around, but as for "sales," I don't know. Compared to plastic boats, I'm sure wooden boat sales is barely in the rounding error.

[kenjamin]

As for sail-and-oar boats, I think a retired guy could make some pretty good cash building nothing but Phoenix III's. It's a great all-purpose sail-and-oar for two and can also tolerate Honda's great 2HP four-stroke hanging on the stern. The plans are a little pricey but very complete from what I've read.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/PhoenixIII.jpg

[ToddFwbf]

I asked around "up north" (northern Wisconsin) the last couple of years and was surprised to find that there was a hot market for wood fishing boats, the small ones used on small inland lakes. It seems that there's even somebody that takes old aluminum or glass boats and either uses the lines to make new wooden versions or replaces enough of the the original with wood to give her a wooden boat feeling.

[Thorne]

The only ones I see built regularly around here for resale are mid-sized ply dories for use with outboard motors for sport fishing/boating.

[bloggs68]

As for sail-and-oar boats, I think a retired guy could make some pretty good cash building nothing but Phoenix III's. It's a great all-purpose sail-and-oar for two and can also tolerate Honda's great 2HP four-stroke hanging on the stern. The plans are a little pricey but very complete from what I've read.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/PhoenixIII.jpg


Kenjamin,

I don't reckon that the plans are pricey at all. $155 for the following;

29 sheets of A3 sized drawings
Oar Patterns
10 colour photos
Comprehensive instruction manual with sketches and colour illustrations

plus full support from a living designer/boatbuilder is a bargain.

I reckon by the end of the build you would be saying money well spent.

As far as sales trends go, I am finding that there is a lot of interest in day sailers from 14-20' as some people are turning away from moored craft due to expense and time involved in maintenance. People who are experienced yachties sometimes come to the conclusion that simple is best and will get used a lot more.

I agree with Todd that wooden fishing boats would be pretty hot too.

fwiw

AD

[kenjamin]

Don't get me wrong. I really like the Phoenix III. It's such a good size for two people and simple enough for solo work or to let a mate just enjoy the ride. I also like the way rowing was given good priority in the hull design so she rows pretty well even though she can sail nicely (like she obviously does in the picture [good shot]). I only said the plans are "a little" pricy. From your listing of what is included in the plans, it sounds like it would be a good investment for what could be soon a very popular boat. It's just that I recently bought very complete plans for the No Frills 15 (another great little boat) for $40 and also just bought plans for Iain Oughtred's gorgeous 18' 3" John Dory and they included drawings for nine different rigs for only $100. So maybe you could see why I said that. (Iain's plans are works of art.)

[TerryLL]

Hey Kenjamin,

Don't want to hijack this thread, but wanted to let you know I built the John Dory a few years back. Superb rower, single or double banked. You'll like her. Easy build. Lose the paper patterns.

I have absolutely no knowledge of wooden boat sale trends. (This last line added just to stay on topic)

[Steve Paskey]

I could be wrong, but I have the impression that there's a pretty good market for wooden drift boats in Oregon. Small fishing boats again, but geared toward local needs and conditions ...

[kenjamin]

The only good thing about being a "plans junkie" is having plenty of plans laying around that could be built. I bought plans for Dick Roberts' San Juan Dory a couple of years ago but ended up building a Caledonia Yawl. But as far as a money maker is concerned, for Florida, a guy could probably move a lot of San Juan Dories for pretty good cash as it is such a practical, sturdy, seaworthy and good looking little skiff for fishing.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/SanDory.jpg

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/PhoenixIII.jpg

It wouldn't take a very big shop to crank out Phoenix III's for sailors and San Juan Dories for fishermen. By limiting the number of different designs you build, a guy could probably increase the profit margins a bit. Throw in a good tender design like John Welsford's Sherpa then I'm thinkin' a guy could turn a profit building wooden boats around here (Florida).

[Thorne]

The San Juan is very similar to the ones that are being built and sold out here. The builder sells 'em on a trailer but without motor. I think that a center console is optional.

[kenjamin]

The Long Point would probably also be a good seller production boat (speaking of center consoles). I think the owner of this one had a 30HP Yamaha on this one that I photographed at this year's WoodenBoat Show at Mystic Seaport. Very salty looking boat. It too would be right at home on the Gulf of Mexico flats near here. I don't remember a center console option on the San Juan 16 (I'll have to check my plans) but Dick Roberts could certainly come up with one if need be. He seemed like a good guy to work with. He was willing to OK a live well on the one that I almost built a couple of years ago.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/LongPoint.jpg

[wtarzia]

Got to admit that Chesapeake Light Craft's Pocketship was looking mighty salty at the dock at this year's WoodenBoat Show at Mystic. ...

Still, I'd like to see how it would stack up against John Pruitt's No Frills 15 built from scratch as far as build cost and performance of the finished boats. ...


--- The No Frills looks pretty neat, too. The Pocketship does seem to offer a little less windage, but perhaps hardly less to make much difference? Other similar boats are admirable, such as the Potter 15. Squeezing such adventure-possibility into a ~15 foot package always earns my admiration, as I become more Marxist/socialist as I age ;-) -- Wade

[kenjamin]

I think the windage is about the same for both boats.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Pocketship2.jpg

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/NoFrills15.jpg

The big differences are that No Frills has a flat bottom and a modern marconi rig and Pocketship has a vee bottom and a gaff rig. I suspect that Pocketship may be better for cruising while No Frills is a little lighter and more responsive for day sailing, but I'm just guessing. It would be neat to sail both and compare. That would be a magazine article that I'd want to read.

[bloggs68]

Don't get me wrong. I really like the Phoenix III. It's such a good size for two people and simple enough for solo work or to let a mate just enjoy the ride. I also like the way rowing was given good priority in the hull design so she rows pretty well even though she can sail nicely (like she obviously does in the picture [good shot]). I only said the plans are "a little" pricy. From your listing of what is included in the plans, it sounds like it would be a good investment for what could be soon a very popular boat. It's just that I recently bought very complete plans for the No Frills 15 (another great little boat) for $40 and also just bought plans for Iain Oughtred's gorgeous 18' 3" John Dory and they included drawings for nine different rigs for only $100. So maybe you could see why I said that. (Iain's plans are works of art.)

Wow! you guys get your plans cheap! John Dory plans from Ian in Australia are around $280 AUD ( or about $236 US - CY plans are just under $400). Sorry if I offended Kenjamin, I was looking at it from a "local" perspective compared to prices of other plans available here.

I guess it comes down to volume versus time invested. Iain probably sells hundreds of plans annually and can afford to spread the cost of development over more units sold. I guess if the Phoenix III really takes off the plan price might change but I bet there are a lot of hours involved in development that would need to be recovered first.

Steve,

Those drift boats look a treat. There is one that is being used at a fly fishing lodge here in Australia which had an article on it at http://www.flylife.com.au/library/articles/52drifts/drifts.pdf. Simple, functional and not to bad on the eyes. I read recently that in Aus, 80-85% of boats being sold were power boats which is a bit sobering for us sailors. I know a bloke here that makes alloy boats around 28' for around $60K (10-12K in materials) and turns one out in around 4-5 weeks and has a backlog of orders so maybe fishing boats are the go.

regards,

AD

[kenjamin]

AD, no offense taken. It's interesting how the prices vary. Wait a minute, I was offended. If I ever make it to Australia, you owe me a beer! :D

It's funny how some people get so worked up about the price of plans when it's such a small part of the overall build.

[pipefitter]

It's a hard act to follow here in FL. Especially with all that is happening with other composites. Most sporties are going for the little glass stealth boats for fishing that come with pretty hard to beat warranties and then there is resale values to consider. Most here that build smallish boats will tell you they do good to break even. Many people are happy to put the money in the new motor and choose from that vast amount of dispos-a-boats that one can get for a song needing some bubble gum and paint.

You have to also remember that this is the age of DIY'r. A lot of folks that want a wood boat are the type that also want to have the claim of " I did it myself" as a stronger novelty than the attention wood boats really bring. Just take a look at the collection of folks here on this one forum as an example.

[erster]

Take any hull to a show or have someone come into a shop and you will not have the right boat for them if you attempting to second guess the market and build wooden boats.;) If you do then you will sell it for about half of what it took to build that wooden boat.:p All wooden boat choices are almost always a local thing or so thinks me. Then again I have never been too opinionated either. YMMV

[kenjamin]

There are situations where a guy would not need to make much money building boats, like me, for instance. I've already determined that with my retirement checks that start in a few years, I could be bagging groceries down at the local food store and actually be making more money than I'm making now. Let's see... bagging groceries or building boats...I think I at least have to give it a go.

The funny thing is I've already been forced into business by Jefferson County, Florida. In order to build my workshop on my two acres in Jefferson County, the county officials gave me a choice. I could either pay over $3000 in impact fees or buy a $100 business license. You can guess which one I chose.

My plan is to offer boats that are always better (more responsive) in wood such as the Phoenix III or similar and cheap fishing boats that may find a place on consignment at local marinas. The other possibility is to develop something that is totally unique and offer it as a kit for the DIY builders – like maybe a planing power catamaran that can also sail.

[Captain Blight]

I think to the average flats fisherman, a wood boat might be a hard sell. You know how rough the Florida conditions are on boats in general, with the unrelenting, dog-kicking humidity and the sun beating down like a Gee-damned magnesium flare. Of course all else being equal the wood boats are much much quieter, particularly when being poled. If you had a reputable flats guide to endorse and be a sales agent, that might help with the marketing.

[garyspear]

captain

thanks for the new phrases..... Gee-damned and dog kicking humidity. The discription was so perfect and colorful I couldn't help but laugh. :)

Kenjamin,

what happend to the CY site??? I miss the crew and I have new progress and a question on my build.

I love wooden boats but I am supprised at how hard a sell the idea is. All people hear is "rot rot rot". we know there is more maintenance and don't mind it. we in fact expect it. but we build our own small boats. the market for the small boat wants a fixed snot rig that they can drag about and abuse then just toss away when they have had enough. :(

[kenjamin]

I have a friend who is the local fly fishing guru. Maybe I should get him involved with the choice of boat to offer. Thanks Captain Blight – good idea! If it was me doing the poling, I'd want the lighter boat that wood could offer.

I'm also thinking that some of these salt water kayakers may get tired of getting wet and may want something a little dryer that can also sail. Maybe something like an Acorn 15 by Iain Oughtred or John Welsford's Walkabout. As fuel prices continue to rise, it could really help the sail and oar wooden boat market. Every cloud has a silver lining, at least I like to think so.

[pipefitter]

Just so you know, my post wasn't meant to be negative. If that's what you want to do then by all means go for it. When I started to research building my own, I had a heck of a time finding the crowd because there wasn't one.

I work in the industry and I had plenty of opportunity to get opinions of wooden boats. My own was available on site and subject to much scrutiny. It is a hard sale to sell any boats here if they even have wood in them at all, even if they match the popular criteria in every other way.

I often thought a better chance might be to build a small fleet of pirogues for rental that you could stack 6 or 8 of them on a trailer and camp out near some of the popular tourist spots that offers a chance at some easy fishing at reasonable prices as a better bet and let nature provide their bang for the buck.

[wtarzia]

I enjoy the reaction to a wooden boat at the ramps I go to. If two people launching wooden boats are present, they seem to mutually gravitate, like two lonely immigrants from the same region spotting each other in a crowd of Others. In my NE area, most boats being launched are bass boats, metal prams, pontoon boats, Hobies, and jet-skis. My outrigger canoes attracted attention because of unfamilar design, yet I also heard seemingly incredulous remarks, "That's made of wood?" as if the idea had not occurred that is is possible, or perhaps some dim remark from a grandfather is recalled about boats once being predominantly wood ;-) . As a folklorist, ramp-side anecdotes interest me, how they go with boat style and even material. Typical jet-ski narratives seem to involve taking spills at 65 mph and waking up floating in the water with the jetski floating 100 yards downwind. Yesterday I told my own to them, that in bad capsize my float-hull hit me on the head. They seemed suitably impressed that a wooden boat could also involve a good accident ;-) -- Wade

[kenjamin]

I know all about the boat ramp attention. You should try it with a birdwing mast stepped. You've got to figure in an extra fifteen minutes or so to tell the story of how it came about (old straight mast was in the way of fishing when stored down in the boat). So far it hasn't resulted in any commissions but then I'm not really in business yet. But according to Jefferson County, I am. Just need to finish my workshop and start building boats on the weekends to test the waters.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/boatramp.jpg

[neilm]

Is there a market for traditional carvel planked boats? Here in Kodiak all the carvel planked fishing boats are very old. Makes me wonder if they will someday disappear. I was thinking about starting a photo archive of all the wooden boats passing through our Port.

Neil

[pipefitter]

Sure they get the attention. The odd furniture alone in mine costs me 30 minutes every time I go. Same with stopping at the store on the way home. "May I look at your boat? Where you buy it from? You built it? wow, Oh wait, it's wood? wow". Then of course they have to touch it like a relic from Mecca as if it may bite them or transfer some kind of spiritual energy.

[wtarzia]

I know all about the boat ramp attention. You should try it with a birdwing mast stepped. You've got to figure in an extra fifteen minutes or so to tell the story of how it came about (old straight mast was in the way of fishing when stored down in the boat).

--- I used to get the 'what is that' effect from my first proa, whose main hull bolted together in two pieces since I built and stored it in an apartment bedroom. Yup, 15 extra minutes set up time! But your mast is a work of modern art besides the fact that it works as a mast. And is made of wood ;-) -- Wade

[kenjamin]

Thanks for your kind comment about my mast. My fishing buddy of some twenty years complained so obnoxiously and persistently (as only he can) about the old straight mast being in the way that I was pretty much forced to design one that curved around him when it was stored in the boat. When my dear mom passed this life she left me funds to build a new boat and a second generation curved mast. The new mast got so good in my mind that I got my employer, Florida State University, to pursue a patent on the idea. Iain Oughtred was gracious enough to OK my use of my experimental mast on his Caledonia Yawl hull.

The only knock about the new mast is that it is heavy at 44 lbs. but I could not afford for this prototype to break as it would not fair well for future support for the design – so it is one strong mast with about a dozen layers of Sitka spruce and some douglas fir on the outer layers (ran out of the spruce). Fortunately the CY hull seems to be well matched to the power the rig can generate.

Here's a picture of my sailing buddy (a different guy than the fishin' guy) sailing at the WoodenBoat Show at Mystic last year. We had to sneak out at 7:30 a.m. when no other boats were around because I had no insurance. This was Xena's maiden voyage other than a leak test back in Florida a few days before the show.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Xenasailrite0372.jpg

Sorry for the thread drift but as it relates to the thread, I'm hopeful my birdwing masts will give me a boost in wooden boat sales when I complete my workshop and get serious about building boats.

[garyspear]

Alright kenjamin,

how far behind or in front of the plan step is the step for your bird wing mast. I must try one someday. do you think I could use the step for the lug that is on the planset. the more I see it the cooler I think it looks. I'll admit that I was a little sceptical at first but it would be a great option.

Do you know what happened to nick's website? will it come back? I sent Nick an email last night but have not heard back yet.

[kenjamin]

Gary, I don't know what happened to the Crazybird site but I hope it comes back. I think that there are a lot of us CY people who would chip in in order to keep it going.

As for the birdwing mast, it's a little touchy subject as to building them. First of all, it's darn difficult to build and very wasteful of materials. Second of all, if the patent is issued, if you ever built one, you could not ever legally sell it in this country. Thirdly, I'm still in the process of perfecting the darn thing. The current prototype is a beefy 44 lbs. and while I think it could be built lighter in wood, the design may not reach it's full potential until translated into a carbon fiber design. The funny thing is I can continue building prototypes but to sell them for profit, if the patent is issued, I would have to buy back 60% of the licensing rights from Florida State University. They actually own the controlling rights. I did that so that I would not have to incur any expenses to pursue the patent – other than the $1000 or so I spent building the prototype. I figured 40% of something is a lot better than 100% of nothing and I sure didn't have the ten thousand or so it takes to pursue a patent on my own.

My understanding is that you could most likely build one for yourself if you didn't ever try to sell it. But I'm no patent lawyer so don't quote me on that.

My birdwing mast is stepped aft of the lug sail main mast and it is specifically designed to be stiff in the fore/aft direction for setting a jib. The tricky part is getting the luff groove, and the slugs that ride in it, slippery enough to hoist and strike sail along the curved pathway. I could tell you how I did it but then I'd have to shoot you.:D They, the FSU intellectual properties people, told me not to discuss the details of construction.

[garyspear]

kenjamin. I had no idea that this design got that involved. I have no intensions of selling anything. I just sort of like the modern look contrasted with what is essentially a traditional work boat. :)

[kenjamin]

Gary, I'm still a newborn when it comes to patents myself but it came to a point where I realized that if I didn't somehow pursue a patent on the idea, then someone else would. The thought of someone else making money on a good idea of mine gave me the incentive to follow through with the patent application. By giving the idea to my employer, it's not costing me anything to try to get the patent even though I'm now only a 40% owner of the rights. If it is not picked up by a major manufacturer, I will probably build them to help sell wooden boats that I build in retirement from FSU. I think the idea of a wooden storable birdwing mast that stores completely out of the way when down in the boat and yet can be stepped at sea is probably best used in a generous beamed sailing hull that's a little smaller than a Caledonia Yawl. Iain's Willy Tern might be the perfect hull for a wooden birdwing mast. I think the lighter carbon fiber version would work better on a CY but it would be nice to somehow retain the look of wood. I'm still scratchin' my head on that one.

[slidercat]

Are there any other advantages to the birdwing mast besides being out of the way when lowered?

(http://slidercat.com)

[kenjamin]

When going to windward you've got to subtract the wind drag of the rig as a negative component in your progress to windward. I believe if the mast can be made to rotate and present a cuved back aerodynamically efficient shape to the oncoming wind then it's got to help with windward ability provided you can still get a good set of sail spread by the curved mast. So in answer to your question – maybe. It is yet to be proven but I've got a good feeling about it. I think the design may reach it's full potential when it gets translated into carbon fiber/epoxy and the shape of the foil cross sections (along the curved part of the mast) can be made in a more controlled manner and conform better to more ideally efficient shapes.

[slidercat]

Well, it's beautiful, too.

I built a sailing dinghy rig once, a balanced lug with a curved yard, to better approximate an elliptical planform. In part the idea came from a picture of Lionheart, an old British America's Cup challenger that had a curved mast for the same reason, though the curve was not as pronounced as the birdwing, and only curved back at the top.

[kenjamin]

Thank you slidercat for the kind comment. I like that Slider that you've designed. We should step the biirdwing on your cat and see if you notice a difference. Better still if we could find a sponsor who would scientifically moniter the difference in performance between the two rigs, that would be awesome! A tightly controlled experiment would most likely be beneficial for me if my physics is correct.

The current birdwing prototype has provision for stays so it could be laced up to your cat easily – just need a lazy susan tabernacal mount that could mount over the present step of Slider.

I'm in Tallahassee, FL, aren't you in the neighborhood?

[TerryLL]

Hey Kenjamin,

I don't want to hijack this thread but want to tell you I have plans for the 21'Mower X-Dory and they show the sweetest mast gate you can imagine. More info about the boat on the X-Dory thread.

[kenjamin]

Well, a truly outstanding mast gate could advantageously effect wooden boat sales so where's the problem? Thanks for the heads up. I'm rained in by TS Fay so I'm just watching Olympic Ping Pong. I'm supposed to be cleaning out the garage. How's that for thread drift?

[slidercat]

Yes, we live in Ft. Walton Beach, just a hundred fifty miles or so west of you.

Do you know Terry Poling? We went sailing with him down at Port St. Joe at the beginning of August. He was merciful, and brought his SeaPearl tri, instead of the Telstar.

I don't think the birdwing rig would move Slider well, unless it was miraculously effective. She has 140 sq. feet of sail, and is not a fast boat, though faster than most monohulls that size. For comparison purposes, a Hobie 16 has 218 sq. ft.

Back to the subject of the thread, it's almost eerie how many of the folks who've seen Slider have said something like, "You ought to start building those things."

But unfortunately, I don't have a vast fortune that I want to turn into a small fortune.

[kenjamin]

Ray, I can relate to the fortune thing. I am however going ahead with a small workshop east of here about thirty minutes out in the woods where I can work in peace and also not bother the peace of my neighbors here in Tallahassee. It's a tiny workshop but I'm making provisions for expanding it later. I'm also in a neat program offered by FSU that let's me start collecting retirement money now and over the last five years of my employment so I will have a good chunk of money to try to make it as a boatbuilder when I retire from the state. I wouldn't have to make much, just enough to keep a little cash coming in to suppliment my retirement checks.

The birdwing rig is fairly efficient and powerful but I've still got to sew up the big genoa head sail that should really pump up the volume. The glue lines in the mast are oriented fore and aft with the idea all along of having enough stiffness in that direction to set a big headsail.

I think that you're headed in the right direction with Slider. Hobie cats are fun for going fast but you might starve to death to do any cruising on one because they can't carry much and still sail worth a darn. I've been knocking ideas around for an entry in the Professional Boatbuilders Magazine efficient power skiff competition. My idea is to have a planing, self-bailing, unsinkable power cat that can also set sail at sea. I think it's doable but maybe too odd and unusual to win the contest. They did say they are looking for something imaginative and of course my entry will have neatly stored birdwing masts available for use when the wind is right and the price of fuel is not.

[TerryLL]

Back to the subject of the thread, it's almost eerie how many of the folks who've seen Slider have said something like, "You ought to start building those things."

But unfortunately, I don't have a vast fortune that I want to turn into a small fortune.

I've run a small manufacturing business for the last 25 years and attended about 50 trade shows over that period. I've also conducted dozens of small business workshops and seminars on effective marketing techniques. It's truly amazing the comments I've received from random individuals about how I should run my business, and especially the products I should make and sell.

And I've heard the same kinds of naive comments on this forum from numerous folks who can build the prettiest boat you can imagine, but don't have a clue how to make a living at boatbuilding.

The obstacles and challenges facing anyone wishing to make a living at boatbuilding are not unique, and the business principles and marketing strategies that lead to success are the same, whether you're selling cat toys, or catboats.

But, if you're clueless about business and marketing, then launching into boatbuilding as a business will, in short order, turn whatever fortune you start with into a much smaller one. Running a business is a learnable skill, and effectively marketing your products is also a learnable skill, and or course, boatbuilding is a learnable skill. To be successful you'll need to know quite a bit about all three.

[erster]

I've run a small manufacturing business for the last 25 years and attended about 50 trade shows over that period. I've also conducted dozens of small business workshops and seminars on effective marketing techniques. It's truly amazing the comments I've received from random individuals about how I should run my business, and especially the products I should make and sell.

And I've heard the same kinds of naive comments on this forum from numerous folks who can build the prettiest boat you can imagine, but don't have a clue how to make a living at boatbuilding.

The obstacles and challenges facing anyone wishing to make a living at boatbuilding are not unique, and the business principles and marketing strategies that lead to success are the same, whether you're selling cat toys, or catboats.

But, if you're clueless about business and marketing, then launching into boatbuilding as a business will, in short order, turn whatever fortune you start with into a much smaller one. Running a business is a learnable skill, and effectively marketing your products is also a learnable skill, and or course, boatbuilding is a learnable skill. To be successful you'll need to know quite a bit about all three.

Many a naive men have also spoken that the business of boat building is just like any other business.:rolleyes: You can take all your marketing plans and start the potbelly stoves with them, cause unless the boats are cooker cutter boats, no two boats ,no two years and no two buyers are the same when it comes to demands. They are all luxuries every single one of them unless you make a living with them, which is a very small percentage of the market.

There have been hundreds if not thousands of folks come before the present wood butchers and history is on the side that with some ubelievable luck a modest return on your investment is in almost all cases surpassed only by the personal satisfaction that keeps the folks going over the long haul.

[TerryLL]

Erster,

My point here is that to run a successful boatbuilding business, and to sell the boats you build, you need boatbuilding skills, and business skills, and marketing skills.

There are in fact lots of people building and selling boats, and I suspect being good at business and having an intelligent marketing plan has a lot to do with it.

I agree that boatbuilding provides immense personal satisfaction, but I disagree that "unbelievable luck" is the only thing that accounts for the success that some boatbuilders achieve.

And you are just flat wrong that running a boatbuilding business is fundamentally different from running other types of manufacturing businesses. Different products, yes. Different strategies, yes. Basic principles that lead to success, the same.

[erster]

Erster,

My point here is that to run a successful boatbuilding business, and to sell the boats you build, you need boatbuilding skills, and business skills, and marketing skills.

There are in fact lots of people building and selling boats, and I suspect being good at business and having an intelligent marketing plan has a lot to do with it.

I agree that boatbuilding provides immense personal satisfaction, but I disagree that "unbelievable luck" is the only thing that accounts for the success that some boatbuilders achieve.

And you are just flat wrong that running a boatbuilding business is fundamentally different from running other types of manufacturing businesses. Different products, yes. Different strategies, yes. Basic principles that lead to success, the same.

Like I stated earlier, you are naive and display this when you compare manufacturing to wooden boat building businesses, unless its some cutter cutter boats which can cut some of the unknowns.

Your labor costs and labor in general is just not known until after the fact. Budget projections? especially yearly budgets, forget about material costs, throw them also in the pot belly stove in specialty boat building.

You can also advertise all you want with the finest boat known to mankind. But you do not SELL a boat. A person BUYS a boat. Own a stock boat? LOL!!! Your plan must be pretty unknown since there seems to be plenty of supporting evidence on the side of modest returns at best for the time and money invested in the iindustry especially since the advent of fiberglass.

[TerryLL]

...there seems to be plenty of supporting evidence on the side of modest returns at best for the time and money invested in the iindustry especially since the advent of fiberglass.

This is an important point. I'm glad you keep bringing it up.

I never said anything about getting rich at boatbuilding. My whole point was learning how not to go broke at boatbuilding, as many do. It is entirely possible to earn a modest living at this trade, doing something you derive immense personal satisfaction from. I'm agreeing with you here. Modest is OK with me.

Another thing you said was absolutely spot on: "You do not SELL a boat. A person BUYS a boat." I'm going to use that line in my next marketing class. It's so true.

An effective marketing plan has only one goal, and that is to find the one person who wants to buy YOUR boat. Nothing more complicated than that. You can drag your new boat around to every show in the country, and show it off to thousands of folks who have no interest in buying it, or you can pay a ton of bucks for advertising that is seen by more thousands who also have no interest in buying it. Or you can put your efforts into finding the one person who wants to buy it. Not hard to do if you know how. Lots cheaper than going to all those shows, or paying for all that advertising.

If this still sounds just naive to you, well I can live with that.

[pila]

A Wood boat building business must be like a flight school business. You start with 3 million so that you can have a million dollar business.
If it's done as a hobby that makes a few bucks, why not go for it.
There must be satisfaction to it or no one would do it. Probably good therapy too:)

[erster]

Marketing plans and expenditures almost always derive from budgets unless you spend parts of your expendable or net income on a whim without long term thought. One must have some idea of the gross so that you do not "outspend" for your return on the dollar in hopes of getting modest returns or what will be known as ending up in the hole sometimes. This also plays into your retail price if you are attempting to build stock hulls, simple economics 101, which I am aware that you know all of this too. Manufacturing widgets and boat building businesses are just not in the same league. Many folks in the business will stay in the business long term simply because its a labor of love by comparison. Money ain't everything, as with most small businesses, but most would never have it any other way. Later.

[onobleboat]

Have been in the boatbuilding business now for over ten years, on average it takes from 3 to 4 months to market one, have found that price has little to do with the sale, people that will buy a nice wooden boat, if that is what they are looking for. I don't spend any money on advertising, but I do spend a great deal of time on it, there are just to many web sites where you can advertise for nothing ( Note The Link At Closing.) Have done the boat shows, they are a waste of time and money, local advertising draws a lot of poeple with nothing to do but go visit a boatshop, quit that too.
The only thing that works for me is to set the price where I can make a living, plaster it all over the internet and wait, have never sold a boat within 500 miles of this place, Don't think about doing a volume business, you have to make every deal stand on its own, build an outstanding wooden boat and get your price up there where it belongs, most of the people who buy my boats make more in a week than I get for the boat ! Money is not the problem, advertising is, you got to get a good network out there in cyberspace which takes lots of time, and that is where you will live or die in the wooden boatbuilding business.
And I don't have a day job or a retirement check, I build and sell wooden boats.
http://www.freewebs.com/onobleboat/

[kenjamin]

Thanks guys for the discussion. This is stuff I need to hear.

Just curious, Orie, have you ever had any luck trying to market wooden boats through established marinas? Sold any on consignment at marinas or kayak rental places? Orie, great web site! I liked the section about "Why wood" especially.

I'm trying to transition from my day job (three more years); I will have a small retirement check coming in regularly. And I will have a pretty good chunk of start up money when I retire. I also don't know the first thing about successfully running a small business but I figure I'll have three years to learn. My business plan is to offer a complete small popular sailboat design (including sails, dodgers and tents) such as Ross Lillistone's Phoenix III or John Welsford's Walkabout. My ace in the hole is my birdwing mast design which works darn good for storing out of the way and also may offer advantages going to windward – they're also pretty good looking. I also want to crank out some very practical fishing skiffs if I can find a marina to sell them for me (for a price, of course) I'm presently looking for a good "start your own business" book. Just want to do stuff I enjoy when I retire. I was also thinking I could deliver my boats (for a fee) in order to fund seeing the rest of the country. What do you think???

[TerryLL]

Kenjamin,

I'm just on my way out the door headed for the shop. I'll post a list of the better small business and marketing books this afternoon.

Taking a few years to learn the business side of boatbuilding before launching into it is a wise decision.

Trade shows (boat shows) are a great way to see the country, and have all your expenses tax deductible. Been doing it for years.

[James McMullen]

I'm afraid that I make most of my money repairing and restoring big wooden yachts rather than building the moderately sized sail & oar boats that I myself love. The guys with the big bucks help me subsidize the small boats I personally prefer on my own time.

There are wealthy yacht owners who are more than willing to spend more on a piece of unique, custom cabin furniture than I could possibly charge for a little lapstrake skiff that costs the exact same amount in time and materials. I love small boat work--but it's really more my hobby than my business. I think the owner/builder is the most likely customer for small wooden boats. We put together and sell materials packages for do-it-yourselfers who want to build their own, sometimes adding a few hours at our shop rate when necessary to do some resawing or thickness planing or other machine work that a homeshop is not set up for--much more economical for them then hiring us to build the whole thing, and very satisfying for the home builder as well.

[kenjamin]

Thanks for your comments, James. If I were to move back to St. Augustine, I'm sure the're plenty of rich clients there who need repairs on their boats. Unfortunately, I'm pretty much stuck here in Tallahassee (wife and stepchildren) where the market for such is tiny if at all. Fortunately, like I said, I won't need to make much after retiring with 37 years at FSU Physics so I might as well try doing something I enjoy. If all goes well maybe I can get someone else to do the sanding and painting and I do the fun stuff like design and marketing. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I figure it's at least worth a shot.

Around Tallahassee, I think there is a pretty large gap between expensive fiberglass gas hogs and people powered canoes and kayaks. I'm counting on some of these many times wet kayakers wanting something larger, more dry, and wind powered as they get a little older.

I'm also interested in developing a kit for a self-bailing, unsinkable, power catamaran that can be built almost "instantly" and also will have some ability to set effective sail at sea. It will, of course, have storable birdwing masts.

[holzbt]

Hi Orie,

Can you explain this quote from your website.

" I am probally one of very few people left with a Coast Guard License to build new wooden boats. "

I've never heard of this. I've been registered as a manufacturer with the CG for years and they don't seem to care what material you use as long as you meet all their safety and flotation requirements. Just curious. Nice website by the way.

[ToddFwbf]

Kenjamin,

Here's a book I highly recommend: "Zen and the Art of Making a Living" by Laurence G. Boldt. It has lots of good marketing how-to. I've also read some of or sometimes even most of a bunch of Guerrilla Marketing books, but find Boldt's book much better.

[kenjamin]

Thanks Todd, I'll order it. I've got a bookcase full of boat books. I guess it's time to collect books that might help me learn how to make money at it. I'm got plenty of experience as a starving artist so I should fit right in as a starving boat builder.:o

Thanks again for the lead. It reminds me of a book I once read titled, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

Nice avatar, by the way.

[TerryLL]

Kenjamin,

Here's a couple of basic books on business start-up and marketing. Don't be put off by the titles, they contain lots of useful information and plenty of direction for further study.

Business Plans For Dummies, by Tiffany and Peterson. A good section titled "Sizing Up Your Marketplace"

Working Solo Sourcebook, by Terri Lonier. This book lists by topic where to find information on just about any business need.

The Guerrilla Marketing Handbook by Levinson and Godin. Also by the same authors: Guerrilla Marketing Online, Guerilla Marketing Weapons, and Guerilla Marketing for the Home-Based Business. Quick easy reads in plain English that provide a firm foundation for an effective marketing strategy.

Why People Buy Things They Don't Need, by Pamela Danziger. I haven't read this one yet but it comes highly recommended.

[ToddFwbf]

Kenjamin,

Not at all like the Motorcycle Maint. book ;-)

Thanks for the compliment on the avatar. It's a detail from a wood block print I did about 100 years ago.

Todd

[kenjamin]

Thanks guys, for the book titles. I'll be checking them out and ordering some. I'm curious if there are any marinas in the area that might be interested in adding a wooden boat or two to their inventory – even if it's a just a tender or small skiff. It would be good to have a flow of inventory that would be fairly steady on which to start a business. Even if I can't find a marina owner interested, I'll probably still learn something from the inquiries. I'll be towing Xena around to try to spark some interest. Thanks again for your help!

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Xena078sm.jpg

[slidercat]

Just a quick note to let you know that I've published a new piece on Slider's blog. It's mainly just a speculation on what kind of simple wooden boat a person might be able to build at a small profit, given the current realities of the market.

I'm definitely not planning to open a boat shop, but I'm considering such a boat for my next design project. Apparently, designing boats is approximately as addictive as crack, but has the advantage that it's not against the law yet. Anyway, I think it will be a small cartoppable catamaran, with an emphasis on traditional beauty. I know, I know-- I swore I'd never open another can of varnish... but times change.

I'm setting off on a short singlehanded cruise tomorrow afternoon, so I won't be around to defend the idea for a few days... but the time alone may give me a chance to come to my senses. Or not.

[kenjamin]

Hey slidercat,

I'll throw this out to you to chew on for free. I've also entertained the idea of a beautifully hulled catamaran. My idea was to stretch and at the same time shrink the hull of the Beachcomber Alpha dory. The tricky part would be the transom treatment. One solution would be to slice off the last three feet of the hull before beginning the resizing. Maybe even better would be a curved, leaned-forward transom that would pick up some of the curvature of the dory bow – only reversed. Got no idea how such a cat would perform but (in my mind, at least), it sure would be pretty in sapelle ply with a clear coat and tanbark sails (and a birdwing mast, of course!).

My current plan for a small stock wooden boat is Ross Lillistone's Flint. It could be built real pretty and live on top of my truck racks where I would also hang my shingle advertising the business. I've gotten permission from Ross to apply my funky birdwing mast to the Flint so the boat could be offered as a rowboat, a sailboat, or with Honda's four-stroke 2HP outboard or any combination of the three. With a proper jig to build on, I'm thinking I could crank them out quickly and efficiently for the entry level boat buyer in my micro-sized workshop in the woods.

Recently I was given the choice by Jefferson County to either pay $3000 in impact fees to build my workshop on my land in the woods or buy a $100 business license. Even though I'm not really ready, looks like I'm officially in business. Bodacious Boats is born!:D

[James McMullen]

Transoms that slope the wrong way ain't so good for boats that launch off a beach and might get surfed backwards a little now and again and stick in to the beach. For that matter, boats with transoms like that aren't any good anytime you might find yourself needing to back up where there are weeds or seagrass or kelp.

Ever see the ill-fated Perception Viscaya sea kayak? That thing was an utter disaster in with the lilypads or in a kelp bed with its backwards sloping rear stem.

I think you should save the reverse transom concept for bigger boats.

[kenjamin]

James, thanks for your comments and concerns. Surprisingly, I do have a little experience with transoms leaning the wrong way. It was quite a while ago but I don't remember any real problems with it but then we don't have the thick kelp beds you guys have to deal with in the Northwest. This was my very first boat and it was so tippy, I added the pontoon. It was a great little boat in the water but set up time at launch got tiresome even after I hinged and folded the arms and it needed just two door pins to complete assembly.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/DoryProa.jpg

We've got floating grass in the Gulf of Mexico but can't think of a situation where you'd have to back up enough for it to be a problem. Most times there's enough room for a U-turn to avoid grass build up on the transom.

[slidercat]

Hey slidercat,

I'll throw this out to you to chew on for free. I've also entertained the idea of a beautifully hulled catamaran. My idea was to stretch and at the same time shrink the hull of the Beachcomber Alpha dory.

That's not a bad idea. I really admire Lillistone's designs-- they certainly fit the beautiful part of the equation.

Have you read my blog post on this subject? It was stimulated by this very thread, and lays out one wild speculation on how a smalltime wooden boatbuilder might make a go of it. As I say in the piece, I don't think I'm brave enough to go into that business, which seems to be a tough one.

One interesting reaction I got to the piece was posted on another forum, and was from a gentleman who'd been building small wooden boats in the Adirondacks for over 20 years. His most popular boat is called an Adirondack Goodboat, and is a graceful canoe-like guideboat-influenced boat, at least to my eye-- and very beautiful. He uses a technique developed by the influential multihull designer Jim Brown, called ConstantCamber. The process is patented, apparently, and the builder pays a small royalty on each boat built to Brown. If I recall correctly, less than $15 a boat. He pointed out that the process is very well suited to the long narrow hulls of multihulls.

The blog post (called If I Were a Boatbuilder):

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/?p=43

All that said, I think I'll stick with plywood, in hulls fairly similar to those in Slider-- modified dory hulls. Slider is such a remarkably handy, well-behaved little boat. I just returned from a little singlehanded cruise in Slider-- down to the tip of Perdido Key, about 43 miles from Slider's home dock. Pretty heavy air two of the days I was sailing, and Slider never gave me any anxiety. Here's a picture of the boat on the beach behind the ruins of Fort McRee:

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/slider1/eveningfmsm.jpg

Looking at the picture, do a little mental Photoshopping. Imagine that the hulls are very fair and painted a pearl gray. The decks are varnished, the rubrails, beams, and cockpit coamings are made from contrasting hardwoods. The mast and boom are varnished, and the center deck and duckboards are oiled to a luster.

It could be pretty, if you squint just so. I like the hulls because the boat has been so well-behaved, but I'm thinking about experimenting with horizontal foils, as in Matt Layden and Bernd Kohler's designs. Slider does surprisingly well to windward with her daggerboard up, so that even a modest improvement from the foils would yield an acceptable degree of windward ability. And those dory-like hulls are generally regarded as suitable for horizontal foils.


I think the hulls of cats made in this way can look fairly elegant. There's also a lot of beauty that can be worked into the details.

[kenjamin]

Hey Ray,

I did read your blog. I really like the hulls of your slider cat the way they are also. There's something about the lean clean look about them that I like. For a more attractive package the area you might want to address are the connecting beams. They look like they don't shed wind well when working to windward with their flat upright surfaces. Have you thought about more triangular cross section beams (like Wharam's) or maybe even solid laminated beams with an airfoil cross section? Good luck with your horizontal foil experiments.

[slidercat]

You're right that the connecting beams are the least graceful aspect of the design.

They're solid 2 X 6 stock-- the idea is borrowed from Thomas Firth Jones' Weekender.

If I decide to draw a pretty little cat, I'll probably laminate solid beams with some curvature.

(http://slidercat.com)

[kenjamin]

Years ago I ran lengths of 1x6 fir on edge through a large band saw at work to get the layers for laminating the curved arms for my dory proa. It worked great! For maximum strength don't forget to rotate every other layer 180° from its original orientatation or mix layers from different boards. The thinner the layers, the more bend the arms can take. The more layers, the stronger it gets. Pretty simple really. If wider layers are desired, you can connect the long edges of two layers with a 45° bevel, epoxy and weights. Staggering those long edge-to-edge joints will increase the strength of the assembly (final beam). Layers joined that way along their lengths may need to be run through a planer to get them nice and of uniform thikness once again. Just make sure any old oxidized and dusty surfaces are roughed up first with some 220 grit sandpaper or run through a planer to get to fresher wood.

[wtarzia]

You're right that the connecting beams are the least graceful aspect of the design.
(http://slidercat.com)...

--- I also made quickie cross-beams for my single outrigger. I laminated Douglas Fir flooring lumber bought at Home Depot. Once glued up, I adzed off the tongue and grooves then planed flat and radiused the edges. Heavy-ish, but what the hell, I got into the water. I have been curious about the windage of multihulls and single outriggers (and the effect on windward performance), and a New Zealand proa builder just sent me some graphs from an engineering MS thesis about a study done on a Marianas proa. --Wade

[kengrome]

Orie,

I'm confused by a claim you're making on your website.:

I am probally one of very few people left with a Coast Guard License to build new wooden boats.Can you please explain what you mean by this? Thanks.

[kengrome]

Hi holzbt,

As you can see my last post, I questioned Orie about the same thing you did in post #52 (I never saw your post until after I had already made mine).

It seems that Orie never bothered to respond to your inquiry, so I suppose he won't respond to mine either. Unfortunately this leads me to believe that he is willing to continue making the same false claim on his website even though we know for a fact that nothing could be further from the truth.

It's false advertising, plain and simple.

Contrary to Orie's claim, the U.S. Coast Guard never 'licenses' anyone to build boats. All they do is 'register' them ... and this registration says NOTHING about the kinds of boats they can build.

:(

[slidercat]

Slider video

I just put up a new video-- the first part of my solo cruise in late
September.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmQJOqJwhvY

There's some footage of porpoises near Fort McRee, which is across
Pensacola Bay from Pensacola. This area is within a couple hours
sailing time from Pensacola and Gulf Breeze, but is still pretty wild
and undeveloped, especially if you have a shallow-draft boat without
an internal combustion motor. The remnants of Fort McRee are really
only accessible by boat or via a long drive by 4WD from Perdido Key.
No roads, no condos, only a few boaters. I was all alone in the
backwater behind the fort on Thursday night and Friday morning.

I'm still learning how to use my new video cam, and I must warn you
that watching my shaky camera work might result in convulsions. But
there's a corresponding post on the blog, if you don't want to risk it..

I hope this connects in some way to my belief that small wooden multis are one promising avenue for a would-be boatbuilder to consider.