Push Pull Tiller and Rudder question

[neilm]

I'm getting used to my push pull tiller on my CLC Skerry. It keeps falling into the water when I let go of it. Any solutions other than don't let go?

Should the rudder be locked down with the rope and cleat? I thought it might be nice to just use friction to hold it in place and have it fold up if I hit something.

Neil

Edit on 8-27-2008: Ok, Here's a photo:

http://neilmoomey.com/temp/2008-08-26_Chiniak/IMG_1585.JPG

[Yeadon]

I have a push pull tiller, and can't think of it ever falling in the water like how you've described. Maybe leaving your oarlock in the socket will create a small fence to hold it inboard.

Have a photo?

[Thorne]

I'll second that request for photos.

How long is the tiller and why does it fall overboard instead of inboard? Building a curved one might be the fix, and/or putting a ball end on the tiller to make it stop instead of slide across the gunwale.

Not being familiar with the CLC design, I have to ask how is the rudder held down now? Normally you have two choices -- weight or line. I prefer weight as I never have to remember to uncleat the line as I sail into thin water...

[Canoeyawl]

I have had the same problem, a circular piece of bungy cord loose around the thwart and tiller cured it. It would still go overboard occasionally, but at least it didn't stream out behind the boat... I could just grab it back - lol. There was an added benifit that I could cinch up the bungy and use it to hold the tiller in position while rowing etc.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

other than the tiller, how do you like sailing your skerry?

I've got a lapstrake cedar Melon Seed Skiff and have decided that I do not care much for a decked boat. The open Skerry appeals to me.

My cockpit is small, like the original plan, instead of like a Crawford boat. It is difficult for my Wife and I to find comfortable seating unless the wind is pu enough that one of us hikes out.

Moby Nick

[Christine DeMerchant]

I had the same problem with my skerry and I solved it by making a loop of rope that attaches to the back bulkhead. I made holes at the top near the gunnel. It still occasionally falls in but I just pull on the rope and retrieve it with no problem.

[keyhavenpotterer]

I have sailed with push pull tillers on a Solway Dory sailing canoe yawl and an Iain Oughtred MacGregor. Both canoes used the same simple arrangement. A loop of rope, say about 4" diameter, tied round the cross brace behind the seat. This allows all the movement needed and if you drop the tiller it only falls a short way over the side and is still within reach. It cannot get too far away. Hope this helps, Brian.

[gert]

Mine often falls overboard too. This thing is about 7' long; once it bit into the bottom because the water was shallow, and SNAPPED. I then had a tiller about 3' long :eek:. Push pull doesn't work well at 3'.

I wouldn't depend on friction to hold your flip up rudder down, use a pc of shock cord.

[neilm]

These are some good ideas, thanks. I'll see if I can take a photo the next time I sail. The boat is on my van right now. It mostly falls into the water when I am doing something like launching or messing with the sail with both hands.

Someone asked how do I like the Skerry? I have rowed it a bunch and love it for rowing/fishing. It could be a bit less beamy for that purpose but still rows 3 knots with little effort. I have only sailed it a couple times and have never sailed before so I don't feel qualified to answer your question. I cut off 1ft of the mast at the recommendation of a pro builder and it seems to work ok. If you are sitting on the floor the boom will clear your head but sitting on the middle thwart it will hit you. I found it best to sit on the stern thwart so the boom is too short to reach you. I'm still experimenting with where to put the passenger. My friend ended up sitting on the floor on a cushion behind the middle twart facing me. Seems to work ok if you rig the mainsheet off the boom.

Neil

[Steve Lansdowne]

I rest the front end of my tiller in the empty oarlock on my Whisp, though this may require a longer tiller than you have. I'm tempted to mark the tiller so I can easily remember which direction I push/pull to go port vs. starboard.

[Pernicious Atavist]

I've used a push/pull tiller for years and use the line as others suggest. I might recommend you leave it long enough so you can stand while under sail if so inclined.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

How does a pushstick 'fall overboard'? The pushstick on my 16 has a 10 or 12" crosspiece at the tillerhead. In any case most of the pushstick is inboard. A man, or woman, has got to go out alone in thier boat once in a while which means you want be able to tie off the a tiller or pushstick for a steady helm. I added an indented teak cleat atop the base of a thwart knee, the pushstick often rides here, and can be quickly captured or released by a lengh of bungee; stopper knot through the knee, wrap over the pushstick, flip into a side entry clam cleat.

[johnw]

I had that problem sailing a Caldonia Yawl. If the rudderpost has much rake to it, pushing back on the push-pull tiller can pull it out of the gudgeons. Bungee cord or even just a piece of line over the top of the tiller will solve the problem. As long as there is something to keep the tiller from rising as it pushes back, you'll be fine.

Yeardon, Big Food has a nearly vertical sternpost, which is probably why it doesn't have this problem.

[bob winter]

Although I don't have my boat in the water yet (it will likely be next year if I am lucky) it does have a push-pull tiller setup. To keep the rudder from coming off, there is spring mounted on the transom which bears against the lower rudder pintle, or whatever the proper name is, serving to prevent the rudder from lifting.

[johnw]

That would work too, but it involves leaning over the stern to pull the spring off. It's a pretty standard way of doing this on dinghies, and is probably more secure than the line or bungee cord. I have that setup on my Snipe.

[bob winter]

True enough. My boat is only around 16 feet long so leaning over is no big deal.

[Thorne]

I really prefer a simpler setup for a rudder keeper -- just an "L" of 1" wide brass strap/bar above the top pintle, rotating on a screw into the transom.

Swing it down and the short leg of the L holds the pintle into the gudgeon, swing it away and the rudder can be dismounted.

[Ben Fuller]

For the tiller, on my faering, I use a short length of line spliced tightly around the tiller that is tied to the after breast hook. There is a little whipping on the line that tells me the right length determined by experimentation.

The faering uses a gudgeon to gudgeon set up on the top with a drop in pin. In this case the pin is part of the stern post gudgeon fitting. In my ducker, its a piece of rod that has been tapped for a screw and there is a small chain to keep it from wandering. This is a really nice set up for a highly curved sternpost.

[Daniel Noyes]

Just finishing up a Alpha dory build, this boat uses a yoke and steering lines, a steering method used in the traditional dories of Marblehead Massachusetts. The yoke and lines means it is all pull no push as the push would push the rudder off it's gudgeons due to the sharply raked transom. The neat part of this is you can sit in the bow of a 21' boat and still steer.
kickup rudder has always seemed un-elegant to me, a finicky, little mechanical contrivance tacked onto what should be a simple sleek foil, I don't know of any traditional small craft that use a kickup rudder.
Dan

[Yeadon]

Here's one answer ... build a small teak pad with a notched landing for the tiller.

You can lash it down, trim your sail and enjoy the ride. On Big Food, when the wind is steady, you don't even have to put a hand on the push/pull tiller, though when the wind pipes up, it helps to hold the tiller steady.

... went sailing this evening off Shilshole. Nice winds, a bit of rain, but overall, just right.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/2802572832_687d44069b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3198/2802573012_1d5f67c63e.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3233/2801726293_c1bbd9660b.jpg

One other note ... the head of my rudder has a nice bit of clearance over the breasthook and the aft end of the rails. I think this gives me a nice angle to land my tiller inside the boat. Also, the way I've rigged the sprit-sail keeps the tiller inside, though it's not necessary.

Just for trivia's sake ... the tiller is probably a little bit over 8 feet.

[neilm]

I tried the bungie loop trick everyone suggested. It worked great! Thanks. I like the Steering line idea too but my rudder is not designed for it.

I also put a bungie on my rudder pull-rope to hold it down. It seems to work well too.

Now if I can just learn to sail.

Neil

[johnw]

I tried the bungie loop trick everyone suggested. It worked great! Thanks. I like the Steering line idea too but my rudder is not designed for it.

I also put a bungie on my rudder pull-rope to hold it down. It seems to work well too.

Now if I can just learn to sail.

Neil

How hard can it be? We do it all the time.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Here's one answer ... build a small teak pad with a notched landing for the tiller.

You can lash it down, trim your sail and enjoy the ride. On Big Food, when the wind is steady, you don't even have to put a hand on the push/pull tiller, though when the wind pipes up, it helps to hold the tiller steady.

... went sailing this evening off Shilshole. Nice winds, a bit of rain, but overall, just right.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/2802572832_687d44069b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3198/2802573012_1d5f67c63e.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3233/2801726293_c1bbd9660b.jpg

One other note ... the head of my rudder has a nice bit of clearance over the breasthook and the aft end of the rails. I think this gives me a nice angle to land my tiller inside the boat. Also, the way I've rigged the sprit-sail keeps the tiller inside, though it's not necessary.

Just for trivia's sake ... the tiller is probably a little bit over 8 feet.

Must I say it . . . This is Yeadon's adoption of my idea - and nice pictures.

[Yeadon]

Not only did I rip the idea off from you ... I put you in the photo, too.

Actually, if any of you out in forumite-land get a chance to to look at my boat, I'd have to guess that 90 percent of the construction details are Eric's. When I was building the boat, I'd go over to Eric's shop in Shoreline and start to ask questions about very basic things. Quite often, he'd look up from whatever he was doing and say, "why don't you just go outside and look at my boat?" So, now I have a peapod that is an obvious cousin to a Hvalsoe. Not the worst thing in the world.

[John Meachen]

Every time somebody asks about holding down a pivoting rudder blade I recommend using a Clamcleat CL257.They must be absent from stateside chandlers judging from how often the question arises.Is this a business opportunity?

[Thorne]

Except for Yeadon's rudder - I helped by sending photos of my rudder, copied from Gardner's dory skiff plans...

;0 )

I likes a big chunk o' lead for holding down kickup blades and centerboards, I does.

[Ben Fuller]

Of course the simplest hold down is friction. Big cheeks, big pivoting area and an aircraft style locking bolt on a couple of SS washers. Tighten the nut until you have to push the rudder down. The Harrier has a real simple lowering mechanism as well: put your hand down in the water and push it back. We also have a mock push pull tiller with a short dogleg out and a tight square mortise in the rudder head with a wedge to hold it in place. The dogleg is ash, and there is a locking joint with another one of those aircraft style bolts ( nylon locking nut.) Then a tiller extension on the tiller itself. So far I have a bunch of years on it without failure.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Not only did I rip the idea off from you ... I put you in the photo, too.

Actually, if any of you out in forumite-land get a chance to to look at my boat, I'd have to guess that 90 percent of the construction details are Eric's. When I was building the boat, I'd go over to Eric's shop in Shoreline and start to ask questions about very basic things. Quite often, he'd look up from whatever he was doing and say, "why don't you just go outside and look at my boat?" So, now I have a peapod that is an obvious cousin to a Hvalsoe. Not the worst thing in the world.

I think there are at least a couple of Yeadon ideas on my Hvalsoe

[skuthorp]

Re a steering line vs push pull. I've tried both on my decked Macgreggor. Push pull is more sensitive and steadier in a sea. Steering line works better for me as it's out of the way under the side decks. However, without a good tensioning spring it's a bit on the 'approximate heading' side and needs a jamb cleat in the system too.