Chincoteague Skiff

[Pernicious Atavist]

Aside from a recent thread and the one Selway site, I have found almost nothing on the Chincoteague skiff. I read on it in Chapelle, but....

So, what's the word? Anyone know this boat; have any decent photos? Etc.?

[TerryLL]

WB did an article about the Chincoteague Scow (garvey) in issue #49 p.81. Several pics of a boat in progress, internal hull structure, and finished boats. Herb Jester the builder, Spencer Rowe the author of the article. I tried to get information on the boats a few years back and came up empty. If you dig anything up, please post what you find.

[Pernicious Atavist]

This would be the deadrise skiff, not the garvey. But, if I find anything on the garvey I'll post it.

[TerryLL]

The article is about the deadrise Chincoteague garvey, also known as a chicken-breasted garvey because of the way the bottom runs forward and up to form the garvey bow.

[Steve Paskey]

The article is about the deadrise Chincoteague garvey, also known as a chicken-breasted garvey because of the way the bottom runs forward and up to form the garvey bow.

P-A- isn't referring to the garvey. He's talking about a deadrise sailing skiff ... totally unrelated except for the name. It's also known as a "seaside bateau" or "Sinepuxent skiff." The Bessie Lee at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum is a fine example, one of my favorite boats in the CBMM collection.

Here's an old picture of Bessie:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/bessie.gif

[Steve Paskey]

And here are the lines for Bessie ... roughly 19 or 20 feet overall. The CBMM sells drawings of her for a minimal fee, $20 for two sheet. See: http://www.cbmmstore.org/bessieleeplans.html I think the plans have offsets and enough info to build the boat.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/bessie_plan.gif

[TerryLL]

OK. I get it now.

[Steve Paskey]

Bessie's interior, minus the forward mast ...

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/seaside2.jpg

[Steve Paskey]

One more ... a 15-foot single masted version, drawn by Chapelle:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/seaside1.gif

[erster]

edited. request to remove content

[TerryLL]

erster,
Do you know if plans exist for the garvey?
Thanks.

[Pernicious Atavist]

That's the boat, Steve! Looks like a good little boat. Wonder why we don't see more of them? Pretty simple, too. Would work well in cypress.

[davebrown]

I was considering building that Chincoteague Skiff. This boat on the attached link is similar, except that I think the stern on the Chincoteague is a little more rounded. Ultimatley, I like the one on this link a tiny bit better--both are gorgeous boats though.

http://mackhorton.com/Sharpie%20web/BB1.htm

[Pernicious Atavist]

Great job, Dave! I never liked the lines of that boat, but yours turned out very nice!

I built, sailed and just sold the boat Chappelle described as 'used for oystering.' It's similar to the Chincoteague, but I think the Chincoteague's rounded line appeal to me more. I'm thinking moving up to the 20-foot range this next time.

Guys, is it odd that there's almost no input or info [except for Steve P's] on this boat? Did it fall out of favor for some reason, or is it because no modern designer, like Parker, has bothered to draw and market lines and plans? Curious--if the former, then I may want to reconsider, if the latter, then I'm compelled!

[Steve Paskey]

Guys, is it odd that there's almost no input or info [except for Steve P's] on this boat? Did it fall out of favor for some reason, or is it because no modern designer, like Parker, has bothered to draw and market lines and plans? Curious--if the former, then I may want to reconsider, if the latter, then I'm compelled!

Other than the drawings in Chapelle's Am. Small Sailing Craft and the stuff on Craig O'Donnell's web pages ( http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fassitt/ ) I've never seen any info on the design ... and after looking at the Bessie Lee at the CBMM more than a dozen times I'm as intrigued by it as you are.

I'm not sure what I think about the Selway-Fisher version: aside from the fact that it's smaller than Bessie (16'), I don't like that gaff rig ... it looks wrong on the boat, and was rarely used on Chesapeake boats that size. From the small drawings on his site, I can't tell whether Fisher got the hull "right" or not. To my eye something about the proportions looks wrong but I'm not sure what it is. And I'm sure he altered the bottom ... the original isn't a developable shape in sheet ply.

But other than Fisher, I'm pretty sure that no one is marketing plans. It's a regional boat that seems to have fallen through the cracks. Heck, it's not even "regional" ... other styles of Chesapeake sailing skiffs were used more widely on the Bay.

No way to tell if it fell out of favor for a reason unless someone builds one and sails it. But remember that these skiffs were workboats built for folks who made their living from the water. If a Chesapeake boatbuilder built something that didn't work well for its intended use, I doubt that he'd build another one like it.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Great input, Steve! I wasn't aware O'Donnell had done anything on it--but should I be surprised? I think not.

Though I am disinclined to make it out of plywood, it may make sense, though lumber, probably cypress, wood still make a better boat. In the 20-foot range I'm sure it wood. Uh--sorry, couldn't pass that up. <eyes rolling> When I get to the Beaufort area I'll have a chance to pick some brains about wood.

I agree totally with your estimation of what "hobby sailors" and "working sailors" put up with. We hobbiests are willing to modify our boats for convenience looks, accommodations, etc that would not make sense to men who risked their lives and livelihoods on the vessels that they used. Even the 'crude' forms, like Chappelle applied to the Cedar Key sharpie, were probably more effective for their application than many of our fun boats. I think that's why I like workboats--give me a carpenter over a hairdresser any day....

So, if this not a real common boat these days, it makes it that much more appealing to build and sail!

[Swidm]

I have ordered the study plans for Selway-Fisher Chincoteague Skiff and it is my current favorite to being my "next boatbuild." Of course, dreaming is part of the fun of building so who knows what I will eventually build. Unlike Steve, I like everything about the Selway-Fisher design including its looks. Wish I had a few more pictures and some sailing reports to go on. Comparing to other "working boats" I think the Selway-Fisher design has a little less V which is in line with converting a load-carying working boat into a recreational boat. I am a big fan of V bottom boats (over multichine or rounded) for rougher waters including motorboat chop as the V does a nice job of cushioning the impact. This is needed in smaller unballasted boat. I also like the beam to length ratio for a variety of reasons. Finally, the gaff rig may not be traditional but it really does work for me in ease of setup (mast can be kept on a tabernacle when trailering) and because I got a brand new NorthSail gaff main without a boat and the dimensions match perfectly!

Having said that, I am glad esthetics are different from person to person or we would all have the same boats. I am concerned about performance so would love to hear the perspectives of the experts on this board. Also, any pictures of one under sail would be enthusiatically devoured.

[dredbob]

Karl Stambaugh's "Windward" designs (there's about 3 or 4, beginning at 15') are pretty much based on a very similar Chesapeake skiff, the seaside batteau. Like the Chincoteague skiff, these were used mostly on the Atlantic side of the Eastern Shore hence the v-bottom to gain extra displacement and buouancy.

<www.cmdboats.com> (http://www.cmdboats.com)

[Pernicious Atavist]

Good suggestion. Like the 21'.

[Swidm]

Thanks to everyone for the posts on similar skiffs. What I find interesting is the Selway-Fisher design has a higher beam to length ratio than the other boats. This fits a little better what I want in a family boat and might explain the use of the gaff over other rigs?

[andrewdarius]

PA, I found two pics from a visit to the CBMM...nice looking boat.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8d725b3127ccec55d845b609000000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D480/ry%3D320/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8d725b3127ccec55de489607200000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D480/ry%3D320/

[davebrown]

Mr. Darius: could you please clarify which hull you have just posted? And what a beauty it is! To my eye, the stern does not look like a Chincoteague--but it could also be the photo.

[davebrown]

Re-read your posts. Got it. This one is a "Bessie", no?

[jim_cricket]

Having built and sailed one of Karl Stambaugh's windward skiffs, I can attest to its beauty and functionality. Mine is a 15 stretched to 16'2" on deck, with 85 feet of sail, una rigged. The only concession to sheet ply construction is the chine at the forefoot. I don't think you'd coax sheet ply up around the chincoteague's stem. My skiff is pretty fast, fairly weatherly, given her low aspect board and rudder, and is quite handy to over 20 mph wind single reefed. I've not yet need a second reef. Karl's 21 would be a great boat.
Jim Luton

[Pernicious Atavist]

Thanks, Andrew! I'll need to make it to the museum some time after the new year....

Nice hull. Think it'll be a good project.

[Steve Paskey]

The pics posted by Andrewdarius are definitely the Bessie Lee. Thanks! For anyone who missed it, take a good look at the bow deck in the first photo ... there are three different positions for the forward mast.

By the way, Swidm, I wouldn't say that I dislike the looks of the Selway-Fisher boat ... only that I'm not sure the lines are as beautiful as Bessie Lee. Over the years I've spent a few hours staring at Bessie Lee and the CBMM drawings of her, and I think she's one of the most beautiful boats of her size that I've seen. There's something about the proportions in the drawing at selway-fisher that looks different, but it's such a small drawing that it could be distortion.

[Steve Paskey]

Oh ... on Bessie Lee, you definitely couldn't plank the chine at the forefoot in sheet ply. If you wanted to build a boat like this that could live out of the water without changing the lines, one option is to plank the topsides in ply and strip plank the bottom. I once took a boatbuilding class at the Alexandria Seaport Foundation, and we used that combination on a 16-foot steamboat hull.

The boat was designed by a retired NA for his own use, and was modeled after traditional Chesapeake craft, with a round stern and v-bottom, and a considerable twist in the angle of the "v" (steeper at the bow, so much so that the chine disappeared at the stem). We were able to twist the cedar strips without breaking them, but it's the sort of job that requires at least two people, much salty language, and a beer when you're done.

The round stern, incidentally, was planked in sheet ply! The sides were 9 mm, and we routed a three-part step scarf into the aft end of the planks. After mounting the sides on the molds we built up the round stern on the boat ... three layers of 3 mm ply fitted into the step scarf and epoxied together. It worked beautifully.

Unfortunately, I don't know if she's ever been launched. The NA's wife died of cancer shortly after we finished the bare hull. Last I heard the unfinished hull was still sitting in his garage.

[Swidm]

Steve, I went back and looked at both plans and I think I see what looks "off". The Selway-Fisher line drawings look more burdensome than Bessie. I don't know if it is higher freeboard or just an effect of the different line drawings. The boat they have pictured looks less burdensome than the plans but I would love to see some more pictures, especially some of the boat in the water, before I judge. I still am kinda stuck on the Selway-Fisher boat both for the plywood construction (already planned out) and the fact I can use a new sail I already have. The extra beam and, possibly freeboard, also add a bit into the equation.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Chincoteaguep4.jpg

[Steve Paskey]

Nice boat, Swidm! Do you have more pictures?

You're probably right about the freeboard ... Bessie's a little thin in that regard. Beautiful, but maybe not the best thing for a recreational boat.

[davebrown]

Steve: love the Bessie. Great boat. But in your opinion, no plywood sheet for forefoot, huh? Is it that much more extreme thatn Stambaugh's Windward 17? I think it calls for sheet construction.

[crabskiff]

you can alway cold mold the forefoot, that is what I did on the crabskiff I recently sold. There is a definite advantage in the shape of the forefoot, does a nice job of knocking down the waves. Bessie Lee is a great looking boat, but I have often wondered how she would do with powerboat chop that most of us have to contend with now. Not much freeboard...

[Swidm]

There are some more pictures of the Selway-Fisher boat. Ironically, it is called an "art exhibit" with no indication that it will ever hit the water. A search of the web doesn't yeild any other pictures of this plan actually built and on the water. These are enough to get me interested in the design (more than the line drawings does). I went ahead and ordered the study plans and am impressed with what I see so far. Stitch and glue constructions with plywood panels. Be very interesting to see how they get that shape into the bow!

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Chincoteaguep1.jpg http://www.selway-fisher.com/Chincoteaguep3.jpg http://www.selway-fisher.com/Chincoteaguep2.jpg http://www.selway-fisher.com/Chincoteaguep5.jpg

[Swidm]

Another thing I noticed about the Selway-Fisher design is it shallower draft relative to the other designs like CNC. Draft is 13" which is good for Florida water. I think they can get away with it because of the unique rudder.

[davebrown]

Did you get the study plans yet? how does the forefoot look with sheet construction? lofting or no?

[Swidm]

Got the study plans but they don't give enough details on the forefoot to be able to answer your question. I am impressed with the drawings I did receive and I am seriously leaning towards getting the full plans. The 13" draft was actually a bit of a negative for Florida waters for me relative to a flattie or sharpie but that V bottom is the thing for dealing with bob n bake days on the local lake. Still, 13" isn't bad and the rest of the boat is really appealing for an open cruiser.

[Swidm]

I just placed an order for the full plans. I really went through a lot of potential boats but kept coming back to the Chincoteague Skiff. It is a big boat for its 16' length with good beam and displacement in the water. Definitely something I can take the family on for daysailing and go cruising by myself. I also like how low the gaff sloop rig is. Will be a nice boat in a stiff wind like the one I went sailing in this weekend on my production boat.

[andrewdarius]

I took a few more of her while at MASCF...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8ce26b3127ccec51b40d7233000000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8ce26b3127ccec51ae4e3031a00000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8ce26b3127ccec51bac0ca2ad00000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8ce26b3127ccec51a7fd643fa00000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Thorne]

OK, what is the name of the 'tail-thingie"? I first saw one a few weeks ago in a photo of a log canoe...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8ce26b3127ccec51bac0ca2ad00000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Steve Paskey]

OK, what is the name of the 'tail-thingie"? I first saw one a few weeks ago in a photo of a log canoe...

It's functionally equivalent to a boomkin, but I've never seen a name for it.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Parker named it in one of his books, I think Chappelle did, too in ASSC, but I'm still away from my library, so one of you guys will need to help a guy.

[Steve Paskey]

Parker named it in one of his books, I think Chappelle did, too in ASSC, but I'm still away from my library, so one of you guys will need to help a guy.

Chapelle has 13 pages on the log canoes in ASSC. One of the drawings has one on it, but Chapelle never names it. Ah ... there it is ... in the discussion of the Chincoteague skiff, page 330. Chapelle calls it a "v-outrigger."

[Steve Paskey]

Here you go, courtesy of Google books ... the reference in ASSC along with a really NICE drawing of one boat:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RzbsxR5Nj4gC&pg=PA330&lpg=PA330&dq=sail+sheeted+%22v-outrigger%22&source=web&ots=hjtzJjrgST&sig=PrbCeFG7xXlyp295Oz82WU6NUPg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

Its seems more like a descriptive term invented by Chapelle, rather than something those who built and sailed the boats would have used.
.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Thanks, Steve. Likely as not, the sailors called it that "bit that sticks aft to hold the mizzen" or an "aft mizzen holder-outer"

[nonsense]

"aft mizzen holder-outer"

That's the technical term:D

[outofthenorm]

Speaking of technical terms - how would somebody not from one of the 13 colonies pronounce "Chincoteague" ? It would be hard to build one if you couldn't say it.

- Norm

[Draketail]

CHINK o teeg

[SMD Yawl]

I just placed an order for the full plans. I really went through a lot of potential boats but kept coming back to the Chincoteague Skiff. It is a big boat for its 16' length with good beam and displacement in the water. Definitely something I can take the family on for daysailing and go cruising by myself. I also like how low the gaff sloop rig is. Will be a nice boat in a stiff wind like the one I went sailing in this weekend on my production boat.

SWIDM,
I too went through a lot of designs before settling on the Chincoteague Skiff. Ordered the plans two days ago... Have you made any progress on the build?

[Pernicious Atavist]

Is this only a 16-footer? I was thinking something more on the lines of 20', with a kicker.

[marcellsworth]

Something I thought of as I looked at pictures of Bessie Lee just now. Is it just me, or does anyone else see the similarity to a Melonseed? Bessie Lee looks kind of like a slightly larger, hard chine version of a Melonseed. If so, and I haven't looked at any measurements, that might answer the questions about how she would sail and handle the chop.

Or is it just the rum?

Marc

[Steve Paskey]

Is this only a 16-footer? I was thinking something more on the lines of 20', with a kicker.

The Selway-Fisher version is 16 feet. The plans from the CBMM are for a 20-footer.

[Steve Paskey]

Something I thought of as I looked at pictures of Bessie Lee just now. Is it just me, or does anyone else see the similarity to a Melonseed? Bessie Lee looks kind of like a slightly larger, hard chine version of a Melonseed. If so, and I haven't looked at any measurements, that might answer the questions about how she would sail and handle the chop.

Or is it just the rum?

Marc

Must be the rum. ;) With the low freeboard, tucked up stern, and graceful lines I can sort of see what you're saying, but the melonseed is a good deal more slender for her length.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Thanks, Steve

[jrackam]

Hi guy`s
new to the forum, been sailing on and off for about a year now and am keen to build my own boat,and am interested in the desighn your talking about.
it would be my first build but i have a bit of woodworking experience.
Any progress on any build of the selway fisher version? that one has had me interested for a while,but as you guys said earlier not much info..

[Pernicious Atavist]

I'm just speculatin' on the build, so nothing here. Anyway, most of what I've seen have been in the 16-foot range and I'm thinkin' 20, though wiser minds may prevail.

[SMD Yawl]

I too, am new to this forum..,
I received the plans for the Selway-Fisher Chincoteague 16 (17 on the plans, around 19 with the bow sprit) early this month. I'm now at the "cold feet" stage, dreading the initial outlay of funds and long term commitment of garage space. I'll let you know when I actually get started on the project.

[jrackam]

I know what you mean about the space!
I looked at the selway site again and it seems alot of ply for a boat that size?,saying that i`ve never built a boat. Is it a suitable boat for a first build? i`m liking the look of the melonseed (13`) but dont want to bite off more than i can chew

[Swidm]

Sorry SMD, this is my first time back to this forum in quite awhile. I was turned off awhile back by clearly stated emphasis on the part of a lot of regular posters that amateur boatbuilders have ruined this forum for everyone else with their uneducated experimentation. Don't know why I am back now and will probably get chased away again like so many others.

Anyway, my build of the Chincoteague Skiff (my 10th boat to build) hasn't started yet. I have the plans and am itching to get started but my shop wasn't finished yet and, now that it is, I have a backlog of projects. I need to help the kids finish the sailing rigs for their flying mouseboats (a wonderful amateur design!). I plan on using....gasp...polytarp for the sails which is good material for the kids to learn to make sails out of. I also am currently building a galley box of my own design which is 11X10X20 with room for a permanently mounted stove, sink (actually a tub), full set of pots, 4 dishes, cups and plenty of utensils. Will also have counter space and legs for use on-shore.

My 12' catboat "Little Gem", which I have rigged with a dodger for overnight trips, will have to fill in the gap while I await the time to build it's bigger replacement. I plan on using the 12' boat on the Florida 120 challege, 120 miles in 4 days w/o a motor! I plan on starting on the Chincoteague this spring and finish it Christmas 2009 as I want to take some time enjoying the details of the build (like to do some steaming again...I like a curved coaming). I would love to keep in touch since you and I might be the first to build this boat for actual sailing use. If you are close to Atlanta, maybe we could get together and either commiserate or cheer! If you want to reach me more reliably, post over at http://www.messing-about.com/forums/ or www.byyb.org since I am more likely to check those sites. Less risk of experiencing negative vibes than at this forum.

[SMD Yawl]

If you are close to Atlanta, maybe we could get together and either commiserate or cheer! If you want to reach me more reliably, post over at http://www.messing-about.com/forums/ or www.byyb.org (http://www.byyb.org) since I am more likely to check those sites. Less risk of experiencing negative vibes than at this forum.

Swidm,
I'm originally from Gainesville, GA so I know the Lake Lanier waters very well. Now located in Southern Maryland on the Chesapeake.

Jrackam,
I did an estimated layout of the plywood parts on paper and the amount seems to be right. Could be done with few less 5'x10' sheets, but the extra cost and lack of local availability precluded my investigating that possibility further.
The ply and resins are being delivered tomorrow. There is a local cabinet maker that is retiring and selling all of his lumber stock. If the quality/price/quantity is good enough I may substitute something in place of the iroko.

Roger, "chilly" atmosphere here... I'll contact you on messing-about...

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Very cool boats. Melonspeed sorta but that is a round bottom round forefoot hull.

[jrackam]

ahh, i see

thank`s

[Thad Van Gilder]

Isn't CBMM selling one of these right now?

-Thad

[SMD Yawl]

[quote=Thad Van Gilder;2079299]Isn't CBMM selling one of these right now? /quote]

Thad,

I believe the one at CBMM is a Two Sail Bateau. Nice boat, the hull and rudder shape are similar to Selway Fisher design, but the construction is traditional (steam bent frame if I remember correctly). I looked at buying it back in October as we stayed overnight at CBMM on our way to the Annapolis boat show. I see the price is lower now, but I've already started construction.
The Selway Fisher, Chincoteague Skiff is stitch and glue construction. Same length with a wider beam and options for a gaff sloop or a marconi ketch rig. I'll post pictures as soon as the pile of plywood and rough sawn lumber in the garage start to resemble a small boat. :)

[pipefitter]

The Selway Fisher, Chincoteague Skiff is stitch and glue construction. Same length with a wider beam and options for a gaff sloop or a marconi ketch rig. I'll post pictures as soon as the pile of plywood and rough sawn lumber in the garage start to resemble a small boat. :)

Any progress on either of these builds?