Too many choices... (?)

[David Swinnard]

Preface: For the past 30 years I thought I wanted to build a "dory" (My father's childhood reminiscences of summers and dories sparked this.)

Recent: In two years or so we will be retiring to Parksville on Vancouver Island. Recently began to seriously consider building a small boat.

Issue: Having raided the downtown main library for all the books I could find related to small wooden boats, their building, care, design, etc. I am no longer certain I want a dory.

Intended usage: Two people (self and wife, though if I can get away with it, maybe just me sometimes) to poke about the local waters. My initial intention was to build a "row only" type boat like Bolger's Gloucester Light Dory (I've had Payson's book for many years now) but my wife is not averse to some sailing (in the past she was...). I've not sailed since I was a teenager (small boats on small lake only) and my wife not at all. I still want a boat that emphasizes efficient rowing (but not the long scull, sliding seat sort - don't feel up to that). Trips unlikely to exceed a pleasant afternoon's worth of rowing (but who knows what the future holds...). Oh, and no rowing experience other than small "row" (miserable) boats at various summer camps, though we've paddled various canoes a double kayak around and about in past years.

Designs I'm interested in:

Bolger's Gloucester Light Dory (as seen in WB article and Payson's booklet)
Bolger's Sweet Pea (Instant Boat Building - Payson)
Gardner's 16-foot Swampscott Dory (More Building Classic Small Craft)
Welsford's Joansa (his website)
Westlake's Brightsides handliner (his website - local design too!)
Westlake's Laurel Dory (his website)
(Looked as some Rangeley and Adirondack Guide Boat designs as well)

My woodworking skills are reasonable but other than part of a SOF Greenland kayak, I've not tackled a "boat" before.

If anybody has building / usage experience with any of the aforementioned designs, or suggestions of other relevant designs for me to investigate, I would very much appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks, Dave

[Steve Lansdowne]

You're learning that the hardest part of building a boat is deciding what boat to build, though of course you can't build just one ...

[Thorne]

What about storage, transport, budget, etc?

It sounds like you are considering a 'sail & oar boat' == i.e. one that performs well under both. Your local TSCA group can be a great resource, as can any of the Wooden Boat centers nearby - the only one I've visited personally in the PNW is in Seattle.

If at all possible check out these boats in person, see if you can go out as crew or guests -- this is a huge difference from looking at lines (or photos) on paper.

Some of the boats you mention are far too tender / lightweight for two adults in any sort of seaway -- in my estimation at least (my wife doesn't swim) -- the Bolger Light Dory being one.

Others would probably be perfect, especially if you decide to rig the boat for sailing as well as rowing. Get yourself and the wife out in a few small wooden boats, and much will become clear as to the many current choices...

;0 )

[Canoeyawl]

Dories are disapointing sailers...they are tender craft

(highly modified types like the Alpha dories and some of the Swampscott types including Ian Outred's are reasonable sailers)

[johnw]

Dories also tend to be small for their length. What kind of construction are you thinking about?

[Banjo]

Me personally, I like Joansa for her trad looks with modern materials and method of construction.

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/joansa/index.htm
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/joansa/joansa.jpg


Edit:
Oops, after reading David G's post further down I re read the first thread starters (David S) post.

David G is 100% correct, Joansa is row only, but can also handle a small 2hp outboard.
David's recommendation for Rogue is an excellent example and would fill all your requirements and then some.

Sorry if I caused any confusion.

[David Swinnard]

What about storage, transport, budget, etc?
;0 )

Storage: in my back yard, possibly in the garage (definitely out of water)

Transport: likely trailer. (way less likely: car-top)

Budget: I haven't yet won the lottery (and likely won't as I don't remember to buy tickets...) so the budget is limited, but I'm not looking to build for $100 - having checked on plywood prices(!) but I'm not looking to spend $5000 either.

Two weeks ago my brother and I spent a good while wandering about the Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle. He wasn't any help - his eye was on the bigger sailing craft. It was a blustery day and we weren't looking to test anything - just killing time until the wives were done at the quilt show... Almost bought another book though.

Thanks for the tip about the GLD being smallish for two persons.

johnw...dories small for their length? From this I get that their waterline length (to which speed is related) is short for their overall length due to the overhanging stem and transom. Is that what you meant?

As for construction, I'm leaning towards something simpler than the traditional methods I've been reading about. Some method using plywood and sealed seams of some sort (as the boat will have to live out of the water and I gather that with certain "traditional" methods will dry out and open seams when stored out-of-water.) Having said that, I am prepared to spend some time learning any techniques I might need when I finally settle on a design.

Dave

P.S. Thorne... yup, nice hat, noisy in the rain perhaps?

[Rick Tyler]

Ever hear of Joe Dobler's 16-footer? It's a mostly-row, sometimes-sail boat that has nice lines, and should be an easy build. Thomas Firth Jones has a nice chapter on her in his book, but unfortunately it's an ugly Website: http://www.jonesboats.com/dobler16.html. Jacques Mertens re-drew it with nicer pictures: http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/OT16_study.htm?prod=OT16 and http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayimage.php?album=527&pos=6.

I know quite a few have been built, but it's kind of a stealth design (in that it hasn't penetrated the consciousness of the WBF -- perhaps because it was designed in California, and only a few decades ago?).

EDITED: Oh, wait. You wanted to reduce your choices... Sorry!

[David G]

David,

In this category of boats, I think you'll get a lot of perfectly viable suggestions.

A quick note about the Joansa. It's a very sweet looking boat. I've got two clients talking to me right now about building Joansa's for them. Remember that she's not at all a sailboat. If you like the looks of Welsford's designs, and want a boat that'll row and sail (and will take a small outboard, if you're so inclined), how about "Rogue"

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/rogue/index.htm


"Fear secretes acids, but love and trust are sweet juices" -- Harriot Ward Beecher

[TerryLL]

I've built Gardner's 16' Swampscott and Oughtred's 18'3" John Dory.
The John Dory is an easier build and a great boat for two rowers. Both are tender, as dories tend to be, and both have ample room for two.

[dm_scott]

Well, I've always been partial to some of the Atkin's small row and sail boats, this one would be my favourite of the type you are describing.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/LittleScout.html

[David G]

I too like Atkin designs, and love Little Scout. She'd not be an easy first build, however. If you're interested in learning traditional building techniques, though, she'd be a good start. And... I bet you'd be very pleased to own the Scout.


"The future is not something we enter. The future is something we create" -- Leonard I. Sweet

[Thorne]

Hat is particularly noisy, but nice, in hailstorms. Other than the rusting bit, fine in the rain.

;0 )

As I mentioned above, best bet is to get out there and experience the boats first-hand. Nothing else can really convey the information you are looking for.

I have a 13.5' dory skiff, fir over oak. Great for rowing, OK for sailing, but it sure can't keep up with similar boats with longer waterlines -- think of a waterline like wheel size on a bicycle.

Sure you could ride cross-country on a bike with 12" wheels -- but why work harder than you need to? Which is why the standard size is more than double that.

[Steve Paskey]

... think of a waterline like wheel size on a bicycle.

I know I'm off topic, but I can't let that go without a fight. You're right about waterline length, but the part about bicycle wheels isn't accurate. I don't know about 12-inch wheels, but for most bicyclists at typical speeds a 16" wheel is just as fast or faster than a 26" wheel.

Tests have proven that at speeds up to 16 mph, a small wheel is more efficient than a big wheel. Between 16 and 33 mph there is little difference. Over 33 mph the gyroscopic effect of the big wheel makes it more effective. But the difference isn't enough to matter to a recreational rider -- even one doing a cross-country tour -- and few people ride faster than 33 mph anyway.

The larger wheel size on bicycles is more a historical accident than anything. It's really all in the gearing, not the wheel size. I own two Bike Friday folding bikes with small wheels: a "tikit" with 16" wheels, and a New World Tourist with 20" wheels. I've ridden the tikit on jaunts as far as 35 miles at a time, and I can vouch for the fact that with a properly geared bike, small wheels are just as fast, and you do NOT have to pedal harder. With the right gearing, a BF tikit with 16" wheels would be a fine bike for a cross-country tour.

Beyond that, small wheels offer a number of advantages: among other things, they climb better, accelerate faster, and because they have less volume they are easier to fill with a pocket-sized pump. If you want to read more: http://www.bikefriday.com/faq?question=1661&x=23&y=12

End of rant, and back to our regularly scheduled discussion of rowing ...

[kenjamin]

We can't leave the Phoenix III out of this discussion as it is just about the perfect size for a sail/oar boat for two people and some supplies for an adventure.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/PhoenixIII.jpg

Iain Oughtred's 18' 3" John Dory is a gorgeous boat – better for two up rowing and maybe a tad more seaworthy. For a leisurely pace, I like to row standing up aft facing forward with the extra tall oarlocks so you can have a face to face conversation with the other person forward rowing conventionally. This works well on my Caledonia Yawl but not sure you can do that in the John Dory. TerryLL, maybe you could venture an opinion about that.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/JohnDory.jpg

[Tom Hunter]

Another factor to bring in to you thinking: speed.

I realize that if you were looking for fast you would get a powerboat. But there is a huge difference in the territory you can explore if your boat travels at 5 knots instead of 4 or 3.5

If you choose a design with more waterline length you will get quite a bit more speed with the same effort. Rule of thumb is that 18' is about the most boat that one person can row effectively under many different conditions, you can go longer if two of you are actually going to row.

If you like the Bolger light dory there is a streched version that may meet your need for easy construction and room for two, while giving you a better experience than the smaller boat.

[TerryLL]

I've done quite a bit of rowing standing, facing forward, with 9' oars in heavy boats. This method works great when maneuvering in the harbor, easing up on your mooring buoy, or navigating through a flooded salt marsh at high tide. If I had a CY, I would definitely set it up for standing rowing.

The John Dory is another story altogether. It is very typical of its class, narrow bottom, low freeboard, essentially a double-ender at the waterline, with low initial stability. Built to the plans it weighs in at just over 200 pounds. This boat is lively and spirited, but not the type of boat that provides a solid and stable platform for standing. I never rowed it standing, but found that without the rudder it rows as well backwards as forwards. When maneuvering in a tight spot, rowing backwards was the way to go.

[kenjamin]

Thanks TerryLL for your opinion. I own John Dory plans and very much want to build one for myself someday. Right now though I'm looking at building maybe the Phoenix III (after my workshop's complete) as a stock boat for a small boat building business when I retire. The Phoenix III just seems so versatile. If you ever got tired of rowing or the wind died, you could always yank out Honda's great 2HP, slap it on the transom and keep going.

[James McMullen]

I used to love dories. . . . .I don't think I'd build another one for myself now. I'm utterly convinced that round-bottom boats are not only more efficient with their lower wetted-surface area than a hard chine boat, but also easier to build with glued-lap techniques when you leave out the chine logs. Faering-type rowboats are just plain better boats than dories in the water from my experience. I would reccommend you add Joel White's Shearwater and Iain Oughtred's Elf to your list. These are fantastic open water rowboats.

Shearwater: http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-058&variation=&aitem=5&mitem=15

Elf: http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Elf

[kenjamin]

Dave, I personally hate outboard motors. They're noisy, they pollute, they burn fossil fuels and some of them have to be flushed out with fresh water after every use in salt water. Having said that, the flip side is that having motor backup adds another layer of safety to outings on the water. If something should happen to you where you could not contribute much to the operation of the boat then it would be on your wife's shoulders to get the two of you home. In a case like that it might be a really good thing to be able to mount and crank up a small motor. This is starting to sound like a Honda advertisement but Honda's 2 HP (because it's air-cooled) doesn't even need to be flushed out when you get home and at 28 lbs. (with fuel) it's something she could probably easily handle. I say this because I must be about your age and I too am nearing retirement. Many of us have beautiful, romantic notions about rowing and sailing but there are times when its mighty darn nice to have that stinkin' pain-in-the-posterior outboard motor. I have no interest or profit to make in Honda products (I have a Yamaha 4HP myself) and no profit to make promoting the Phoenix III but I am a guy about your age and I thought you might need to consider such things. Keep us informed about your decision and best of luck with your build!

[Yeadon]

You gotta come down to Port Townsend, Wash. for the wooden boat festival. It's next weekend ... September 5-7. All your questions will be answered.

Festival website here. (http://www.woodenboat.org/festival)

[johnw]

David, that's close to what I meant. For their overall length they have a short waterline and narrow waterline beam, which means a 15' dory is a smaller boat in terms of use than, say, a 15' skiff. Dory skiffs, with their wider sterns and more upright transoms tend to be bigger for their length. Gardner's 14' dory-skiff, which is designed for the kind of construction you describe, would be roomier than the light dory. You might also look at some lightweight flat-bottomed skiffs in the size range you are talking about. As long as they are designed with sufficient rise the the stern, they can row quite well and be handsome.

[dennisbur]

The members of Oarlock and Sail meet Thurs. nights on Granville Island. Maybe you want to visit?

http://www.woodenboatclub.ca/

[kengrome]

... suggestions of other relevant designs for me to investigate ...Hi Dave,

I'm surprised that I'm the first to suggested the plans available at duckworks:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans.htm

Jim MIichalak in particular has some easy-to-build designs you might like.

[David G]

Hi Dave,

I'm surprised that I'm the first to suggested the plans available at duckworks:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans.htm

Jim MIichalak in particular has some easy-to-build designs you might like.

Ahhh, but you're not. See posts #9 & # 15. The Michalak mention is a good one, though.

[dm_scott]

Well, I would probably buy Oughtred's Clinker Plywood book, and then build Little Scout that way, trailer ready, traditional design, modern methods and materials for the hull, but low tech tradition for the rig.

Best of both worlds?

[David Swinnard]

snip---> I say this because I must be about your age and I too am nearing retirement. Many of us have beautiful, romantic notions about rowing and sailing but there are times when its mighty darn nice to have that stinkin' pain-in-the-posterior outboard motor. I have no interest or profit to make in Honda products (I have a Yamaha 4HP myself) and no profit to make promoting the Phoenix III but I am a guy about your age and I thought you might need to consider such things. Keep us informed about your decision and best of luck with your build!

This is something I really hadn't thought about, but it makes very good sense. The idea of a small lightweight outboard is something I will certainly keep in the back of my mind.

Oarlock and Sail meet Thurs. nights on Granville Island - cool. If my Thursday night class doesn't run, I'll definitely check this out. (Maybe even get there early enough to get some Lee's Donuts too.)

Port Townsend WB festival: Thanks for the heads-up on this. Don't know if it's doable under the current weekend schedule, but I'll toss it into the mix.

When the time comes, I'll let you kind folks know what I've decided. I really do appreciate your suggestions.

Dave

[johnw]

My favorite so far is the Shearwater.

[David Swinnard]

My favorite so far is the Shearwater.

I went to the library and got the "50 Plans" book tonight and looked at the Shearwater... it looks good to me too. (this is NOT getting easier! But I'm NOT complaining - I like to have my eyes opened, and I'm not in a big hurry to make a decision.)

[BrianY]

Another one to consider: Karl Stambaugh's Bay Skiff 15 - easy build, traditional good looks, ply/epoxy construction that will be happy living on a trailer, good rowing capability and a decent sail boat with a simple yet efficient rig if you're so inclined.

http://www.cmdboats.com/bayskiff15.htm?cart_id=defee8508cfc336ade54b219a7f 8fe51

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg273/byankee_photos/bayskiff15_profile.jpg

[kenjamin]

Dave,

Enjoy the selection process. It's by far the cheapest and most fun part of building a boat. If you go with a double ender like Shearwater, there are gunwale motor mounts available or you may want to consider an electric trolling motor for emergency use that could just clamp on the gunwale. The battery could also be utilized to power a light for camping. LED lights take very little power away from the battery. Also for a very simple sail like Shearwater's you might want to consider a kit from Sailrite. My wife and I sewed all the sails for my Caledonia Yawl and they turned out great. A good zig-zag home sewing machine is all you need. Good luck with your build!

[SaltyD from BC]

Bolger's Gloucester Light Dory (as seen in WB article and Payson's booklet)
Bolger's Sweet Pea (Instant Boat Building - Payson)
Gardner's 16-foot Swampscott Dory (More Building Classic Small Craft)
Welsford's Joansa (his website)
Westlake's Brightsides handliner (his website - local design too!)
Westlake's Laurel Dory (his website)
(Looked as some Rangeley and Adirondack Guide Boat designs as well)



As the lads have said David none of the above are terribley good sailers. Of the ones mentioned I would go with Britesides, though they're not a dory. I've been oogling this design a lot and hope to build it or maybe even a traditional handliner some day.

With one person rowing you will absolutely smoke any of the ubiquidous kayaks all over the Parksville beaches. With two you will really cover some ground. If you goodle more on these handliners you will see that they have many virtues. In the 20s and 30s guys would head out from nearabouts where you're moving to, say goodbye to the wife and row following the salmon north. Some up to Prince Rupert for pitty sake. :eek: They'd be gone for several months camping on the beach and trolling for smilies - selling to buyers on steam ships...

Anyway sorry for the digression there, but my point is they are extremely capable. And fast for a row boat. They will sail downwind but that's about it. You could likely rig up a removable motor board for using a very small outboard on one side or the other near the stern if you wished..

Good luck with your decision.

[johnw]

One thing you'll have to decide is, do you want a rowboat with auxiliary sail, or a sailboat with auxiliary oars? My preference is for the latter.

[David Swinnard]

One thing you'll have to decide is, do you want a rowboat with auxiliary sail, or a sailboat with auxiliary oars? My preference is for the latter.

You know John, initially I thought rowboat first that would handle a sail, now I'm not so sure. These past few weeks of reading all I can lay my hands on about small boats (I now belong to four different regional libraries in the local region) has me rethinking the row/sail priorities. Reading of small, rowable sailing craft, and my wife's now reversed stance on sailing, I think I'm leaning towards the latter now too.

And all of this based on no practical experience at all... (except the short sailing course I took as an early teenager, lo these many years ago...) I guess it's time to start hanging around where the small-boat folks do.

Dave

[johnw]

The bay skiff's a great boat for that set of priorities, except that the tall mast stays up. How about a Perfect Skiff (plans available from Our Sponsor) with a sprit or lug rig?

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Prodinfo.asp?number=400-106&item=1

The Goat Island Skiff might also be worth a look.