Thorn Does Oregon

[David G]

Thorne - my separated-at-birth, much smarter, almost as handsome twin came up from San Francisco to one of our last Ol' Coot boating events of the year. Timothy Lake. High in the Cascades, just south of Mt. Hood. Fotos follow. I'll let him add commentary when he recovers:

http://flickr.com/photos/dirtsailor2003/sets/72157607418799960/with/2877738850/

http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/auroradan/Timothy%20Lake%202008/


"If it doesn't have Siamese Twins in a jar it's not a real fair" -- Matt Groening

[JC 72]

Hey David,
That looked like a chilly good time. Some of us had to work, so it is nice to see folks out in their boats. John

[Thorne]

Gosh, I was SO disappointed - who'd of thought we'd get rain in Oregon??

;0 )

Well worth the 10 hour drive. Averaged over 35mpg towing over the Siskyous and Cascades with the Jetta, better on the flats.

Weather was often a bit too windy and damp for sailing, but we made up for that with the drinking around the campfire, crawdad catching and cooking, etc.

I look so much like David G. that one of the Coots wives saw me and said, "Hi, David"....even though we hadn't been introduced.

Here's David sailing his GIS -
http://www.luckhardt.com/timlk-dsail1.jpg


David's PD Racer leeboard had a slight wardrobe malfunction...
http://www.luckhardt.com/timlk-dleebd.jpg

And Jetman lived up to his rep for unique propulsion systems -
http://www.luckhardt.com/timlk-jet1.jpg

The Core Sound 20 really liked the weather - we sailed together across the lake to Meditation Point, where I quickly put the reef back in my mainsail...
http://www.luckhardt.com/timlk-cs1.jpg

The calm waters in the bay at Meditation Point -
http://www.luckhardt.com/timlk-medpt.jpg

[Thorne]

Here is my 'twin' David helpfully shoving me off into uncertain weather and rocky shores -

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/auroradan/Timothy%20Lake%202008/PICT3149.jpg


The below is my fave photo so far, although I think the camera lens was fogged, as it wasn't quite as damp and cold as it looks. David's GIS is being sailed by his buddy Jerry who helped build it..

Note the pillar of water heading for a nice leap over the bow and into my face -

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/auroradan/Timothy%20Lake%202008/PICT3158.jpg

[Thorne]

And no messabout photos are complete without the "beach lineup" shot -

http://www.luckhardt.com/timlk-bch1.jpg

David just posted his photos in the last hour. Here's his final shot, as the last of my new Oregon "friends" drove off and left me all alone in the rain...luckily I still had plenty of St. Pauli Girl.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3199/2880594005_dc7fa1a8e0.jpg?v=1222144919

[David G]

Thorne,

I just uploaded my fotos to flickr also. Since it's flickr, remember to click the "All Sizes" button if you want a larger image:

http://flickr.com/photos/arbordg/sets/72157607440686952/

[MiddleAgesMan]

http://www.luckhardt.com/timlk-bch1.jpg

Question for David G: in this photo and in several others it appears your mast has a very slight forward rake. Is this the way it is or is it camera angle? Does your GIS have a marked weather or lee helm?

(I'm curious because I had an opposite problem--a pronounced rake aft due to a layout error. I believe I corrected all or most of the error by moving the partner hole forward about 18mm.)

[Thorne]

David, thanks and I've already linked to several, see above photo where you said, "Look lonely"...

;0 )

[David G]

Question for David G: in this photo and in several others it appears your mast has a very slight forward rake. Is this the way it is or is it camera angle? Does your GIS have a marked weather or lee helm?

(I'm curious because I had an opposite problem--a pronounced rake aft due to a layout error. I believe I corrected all or most of the error by moving the partner hole forward about 18mm.)


I'm afraid I never noticed any rake, but sometimes I don't notice stuff like that. I'd have to rig her, float her, and check with a level (from the dock) to be sure. Not something I'll be able to do until Springs. My co-builder, Jerry, hooked up Sisu and took her home from Timothy Lake to his place in the Columbia Gorge for the winter. It's nice to see him taking an interest. This event was only his second time sailing her solo in the three years we've had her rigged for sail.

Maybe Mik can correct me, but I think his setup results in a mast with no rake. I, personally, wouldn't mind a touch of forward rake - just to give my bean more room under the boom. As far as balance, Sisu has just a tiny amount of weather helm. Perfect, really. It's a good thing, because with a daggerboard, and a dagger-style retractable rudder blade, there's no simple way to tweak the CLR, as you sometimes can with a swinging rudder and centerboard.


"Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow" -- Oscar Wilde

[AstoriaDave]

You guys are clearly having fun, Oregon sunshine notwithstanding. Coots rock!

[David G]

Yes, the weekend was tons-o-fun. The Coots do, indeed, rock. Great bunch of guys. But the one fella who really rocks is THORNE. Can you imagine driving 1,000 miles to spend a damp weekend hanging out with a buncha Ol' Coots?? If any of you West Coasters would like to partake in our messabouts, just moniter the MessaboutW group at Yahoo:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/

There you'll find chat, fotos, and a calendar of upcoming events. You'll also find out about the joint event (Coots & two TSCA NoCal groups) that Thorne is organizing for May in Humboldt County.

The weather wasn't as damp as it appears, and the cloud cover kept the high-mountain night temps from plunging. One of the guys camera lense was fogging up. No fog on the outside. You'll notice some of the fotos show us in shorts & shortsleeves. When it wasn't drizzling or sprinkling, that was comfortable. There was some light rain also, and plenty of wind.

There was enough wind that Thorne & I were the only ones crazy enough to go out Sat. pm. I went in his boat because he needed ballast and a dodger. I know I served the former purpose well, but from his whining, maybe not the latter. It was a wet, wild ride under his smaller jib only. Filled up the bilge with green water & a good quantity of my very own, personally processed yellow water. Not that I'm suggesting I had any doubts about Thorne's skipper skills, or whether I thought we'd survive. I was pretty darned sure we wouldn't ;) (Freeboard? We don't need no stinkin' freeboard!)


"There is no pleasure in having nothing to do. The real fun comes in having lots to do and doing something more interesting instead"

[Ed Armstrong]

Looks like a great trip! Brings me back to my days as a U of O duck, although I remember the weather during August, September and October being spectacularly beautiful (it's just gray and rainy the rest of the year).

Ed

[BobW]

It sure does look like a great time - Oregon sunshine and all. Of course, it really doesn't rain in the NW nearly as much as they want the rest of us to think. It's a ploy to keep people away!

I'll have to pencil that outing at Humboldt Bay into next year's calendar. If I'm done with my GIS, I'll be tempted to join in. We'll have to see how things go over the winter.

Bob

[Thorne]

Even if your GIS isn't done by early May, plan on coming up anyway -- always plenty of room for galley slaves...er...crew at messabouts!

Here's the event website with last year's data, will update when I get the date nailed down for '09 -

http://www.luckhardt.com/blmessabout.html

http://www.luckhardt.com/bl_messabout08.html <-- photos

[David G]

Bob W,

If you do get the Goat Island Skiff done, maybe we can have two at one event... which I believe would be a World Record :rolleyes: (I'd have to confirm w/Mik to be absolutely certain). And if you don't, maybe you can get a sail in mine. I'm certainly gonna try and arrange my work schedule, family commitments, old friend funerals, and such so I can attend this year.


"They say such nice things about people at their funerals that it makes me sad to realize that I'm going to miss mine by just a few days" -- Garrison Keillor

[Thorne]

I've picked the date and updated my Big Lagoon Messabout webpage and flyer -
http://www.luckhardt.com/blmessabout09.jpg


http://www.luckhardt.com/blmessabout.html

[David G]

Cool Beans. I posted the link at the Coots Yahoo site. I hope both our NoCal Goat Island Skiff builders can make it - with or without finished boats!


"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive" -- Robt. Louis Stevenson

[Boatmik]

Bob W,

If you do get the Goat Island Skiff done, maybe we can have two at one event... which I believe would be a World Record :rolleyes: (I'd have to confirm w/Mik to be absolutely certain). And if you don't, maybe you can get a sail in mine. I'm certainly gonna try and arrange my work schedule, family commitments, old friend funerals, and such so I can attend this year.

There have never been two GIS's on the water at the same time to wave to each other.

So you would definitely have a world record!

Though you had better be quick ... there are about 5 in the USA, two in the UK, and a smattering of them through Europe. Then a whole bunch building as well.

Looks like a 900% increase this season in non OZ numbers. Got to thank Chuck and Sandra for a lot of that, plus Mr David G finally converting his from being a MOTORBOAT!!! (and finding the true sailorman inside ... now if I can only get him off the floor and onto the gunwale I can die a happy man!!!).

Oh ... and as far as mast rake goes ...

With any rig where the luff of the sail is attached to the mast the rake has a strong effect on where the mast ends up.

Now if you have lee or weather helm with a lug rig you can simply move the yard and boom backward or forward relative to the mast respectively. Both of the GISs I have sailed have balance very nicely.

Just make sure you are using plenty of downhaul though before you start fiddling away from the precise position of the yard and boom. If you have lee helm it can mean the downhaul is too floppy and the peak of the sail (with its area biased more aft) and the leach is not developing enough power. Tightening the downhaul on a balance lug will usually promote a bit more weather helm.

This does assume that the halyard is not too stretchy. Super low stretch ropes are useful for this one critical application - and their per metre price has dropped and dropped over recent years. I don't recommend them anywhere else. For a lug halyard (arguably any halyard) the best rope to use is Spectra or dyneema or second choices Vectran (it breaks down under UV ... not a prob for boats stored indoors or under cover) or Kevlar (it works ok in the overwide blocks I specify and the tying methods I specify on the rigging page.

If low stretch halyard and lots of downhaul doesn't work then look at moving the sail backwards or forward relative to the mast. To start with them positioned where they are closest to the pictures on the GIS (and lug rig) rigging instructions on my website or the line drawings in the plan will be best.

The downhaul thing is important ... because if it is not tight enough there might be a touch of lee helm ... so there is a tendency to move the sail back to move the CE back. It won't work because the downhaul is even less effective at limiting twist as the downhaul moves closer to the tack of the sail. When the downhaul reaches the tack of the sail there is zero control of sail twist with all the unpredictable downwind handling that this promotes .. PLUS you still have the lee helm.

So get the mast and yard in the right place according to the plan and PLENTY of downhaul (in all but light winds) (and even MORE in strong winds) before you start fiddling with the fore and aft position of the sail.

Best wishes luggerites!

MIK

Michael Storer

[David G]

Mik,

Nothing wrong with the Goat as a Motorboat. We had two fine seasons that way... just rowing and putting around. She makes a mighty fine messaround boat for the kids that way.

Gunwale? Gunwale? Are you daft, man? You've got to know that the next step from hiked out is... swimming. You do know that, don't you? Of course, to be fair, the only time I've dumped her was my first day sailing her. And my beefiest bioballast was plopped firmly in the bilge at the time. :p

That was a fine exposition on sail position, professor. I certainly learned something. But you didn't answer the original question: did you intend the GIS mast - when she's built to spec, and floating on her lines - to have a bit of forward rake... or not?

Sounds like we might have two Goats at the Big Lagoon event next May, and could possibly even have three. Wouldn't that be something? I'd love to sail in company with another GIS or two, compare notes, and - of course - do some informal racing. I can imagine some interesting discourse. Mostly, though, I'd love the chance to meet two fellows who had the wisdom to pick such a fine design ;)


"Good company and good discourse are the very sinews of virtue" -- Izzak Walton

[BobW]

A world record? That's just added motivation to get my GIS built in time for the Big Lagoon Messabout! Jamie could make it three (or maybe I'm third 'cause he's already building... doesn't matter much if we're all there)!

Bob

[Boatmik]

Howdy David,

Eagle eyed David, I should say. Plumb (guffaw) forgot about mast rake!

Mast rake is slight aft, but the rise in the sheer at the bow can give a bit of a feeling that the mast is leaning forward when the sail is not hoisted.

Best wishes
Michael