I just bought a roller reefing gear .

[PeterSibley]

I just bought a roller reefing gear off Ebay .(It's not the one I asked ACB about via PM ) . It has the end fittings with it ,not complete but useful. The socket takes a 6" boom ,which is large ! But as I had expected to use a 5" or 5.5" boom anyway I think I can accommodate .It cost $78 plus $60 postage .I am well pleased .:)

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/335821628.jpg

[The Bigfella]

Nice score. Bought locally or O/S?

[PeterSibley]

Local ,Wide Bay ,Qld .

A kind member on the forum had offered me one but it had to be sent from the US .Extremely generous of him but very expensive postage and difficult to pack .Local is way better if possible .

A search for "bronze" on Ebay in boat fittings brings up quite a few of his items .Interesting gear .

[Larks]

Brilliant Peter, how does it work? Is it just a line system like a jib roller?

[PeterSibley]

No ,it has a worm and wheel box close to the mast ...see the small round section ? That's the end of the worm , think of it as a goose neck that rotates the boom and rolls up the sail .Very 50's and earlier , popular here and in Britain .The Yanks hate them ! John B is no fan either .

There have been a few pro and con threads on the subject .I guess I'm in the pro camp now !

[hansp77]

Nice score Peter! and a great price too.

Is that nickle plated? are you going to strip it or re-plate or just use as is?
What have you got to make/cast to make it complete?

[StevenBauer]

We've got a smaller version on Talisman. Seems to work fine. Did you see Andrew's Tilman article in ClassicBoat? He said Tilman only used the furler while under sail. I guess it keeps tension on the fabric and you get a better sail shape. We haven't tried it yet.
Did yours come with a cast bronze crank handle?



Steven

[PeterSibley]

Nice score Peter! and a great price too.

Is that nickle plated? are you going to strip it or re-plate or just use as is?
What have you got to make/cast to make it complete?

! don't know yet , it's still in the mail !:D I think I'll strip the chrome or nickel and go for green .

I'll have to cast a handle ( maybe 3 ) ,not a hard job .There are boom end fittings too , I'll have to wait 'til they arrive to see whats missing ...not too much from the photo (not posted ).

Yep ,the price was great !:)

[PeterSibley]

We've got a smaller version on Talisman. Seems to work fine. Did you see Andrew's Tilman article in ClassicBoat? He said Tilman only used the furler while under sail. I guess it keeps tension on the fabric and you get a better sail shape. We haven't tried it yet.
Did yours come with a cast bronze crank handle?



Steven
Yes , that article was inspirational ! Quite timely .As I said above , no handle but I'll cast one or three .(I have a small home bronze foundry ) .
BTW ,Andrew , should you read this .Thanks for said article !:) More please .

[John B]

I don't hate them, I love artifacts.
No place on a boat ,but when they're like that they're lovely things to look at.:D

[shamus]

You could use that to control an awning on your shed or something. Put some nice foolproof slab reefing on your boat.:D

[Michael Beckman]

no lazy jacks with that I guess.

[PeterSibley]

You could use that to control an awning on your shed or something. Put some nice foolproof slab reefing on your boat.:D

Trouble is I keep visualising that nice foolproof slab reefing at midnight ,wind strength rising , rain falling .I'll take the winding handle and an imperfect set ..thank you !:D

[Ron Williamson]

I think mine is the very same.
You will also need a roller sleeve for the sheet at the other end,and one of those strange vang roller thingies.It looks like a very large, flat horseshoe with skateboard wheels on the ends(top) and a shackle on the outside at the middle(bottom).
R

[PeterSibley]

Ron ,I think I've seen a drawing of such a device ....could you post a photo ?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Peter, you should not need a claw ring unless either:

your main boom overhangs the stern

or

you have a centre mainsheet.

You do of course need a boom end fitting which allows the boom to revolve whilst keeping the mainsheet and topping lift(s) in place.

[JimConlin]

The claw rings were also used for vangs.

I had a similar roller reefing boom on my 35' masthead sloop, built in 1962. I was never happy with the shape of the reefed sail. The sail crept forward and bunched up at the lower luff and was much too full. It could be flattened somewhat by rolling into it something to pad out the middle of the boom. A 7' length of 1/2" line was about right in my case.
After a number of years of trying to get the roller reefing sail to set right, I gave up and converted to slab reefing. This involved altering the sail and adding cheek blocks, cleats and tack hooks on the boom. The sail set better and I felt that the act of reefing was a good bit easier to accomplish. I considered running the halyard and reef lines back to the cockpit but it would have taken more hardware than I wanted to buy at the time. It would certainly have been still more convenient.

It seems to me that, as opposed to slab reefing, roller reefing made sense in the era when sailcloth was stretchier than it is today and it it took pretty substantial patches to bear the point loads of slab reefing. With stiffer sailcloth, it's no longer necessary. Todd, can you comment?

[Dan McCosh]

Does seem curious to see this coming back. Roller furling was being removed from local boats in the 1980s around here, due to the difficulty of reefing in a blow and the bad sail shape when reefed.

[paladin]

I had a similar system made by Nicro metal marine.....after about the second year I gave it to a fellow in Sud Afrika and went to slab reefing as I thought it was a tremendous pain in the posterior and the sail was always wrinkled and wouldn't set well....

[John B]

Read what Jim says. Its like deja vu for me.

A buddy has the extreme ( modern)development of the principle with a leisure furl boom on a 42 footer.
Apart from the absolutely critical nature of the vang/ topping lift to get the furl correct, there's the ridiculous situation of having to winch the whole sail up absolutely dead head to wind or else, and winch the whole sail down. They even do it electrically, and its still a pain. I can set my sail by hauling it by hand 95% up( winch it the last foot or few inches, get the anchor up and down, sail off the anchor and be a hundred metres away and they'll still be stooging around with getting their stupid mainsail up.

[John B]

Hey here's one good thing about roller reefing

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/Misc%20compressed%20ex%20imagest/scan0006_1.jpg

when you drop your rig, its easy to accomodate your new sail plan.

[PeterSibley]

Andrew , here's a photo of the boom end fitting that came with the roller .

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/336018144.jpg

To all the critics, you could well be right on this but as my rig will closely resemble Andrew's , I shall take his advice :).I have to steer one course on this and feel that in my case the advantages (as I see them ) will make the roller well worthwhile .....of course redoing the boom (as several of you have done ) would not seem to much of a problem anyway.

Thanks for all the advice.

[JimConlin]

Peter-
After I gave up on roller reefing, I continued to use both boom-end fittings, so changing later isn't a big project.
If you elect to go the RR route, what you give up permanently might not be major:
- You can't use mid-boom sheeting.
- The boom needs to be beefier and round and therefore heavier than it might have been.

If I were building a roller-reefing boom today. I'd make it a bit fat in the middle. Your sailmaker might tell you how much fatter. I'd guess 1/4" at the 40% point.


Does the outhaul of your boom-end fitting lay over as you roll a reef?

[PeterSibley]

Jim ,thanks for that .I haven't seen the gear yet , it's still in the mail .One of those Ebay transactions !

[clancy]

I saw this boat in a yard last year. I posted asking about it because I didn't know what it was.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d31/inuitsea/P1040332.jpg


http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d31/inuitsea/P1040338.jpg

[WX]

Looks good Peter. I could have yarned for about another half hour it turned out. Kerry was ages.:D

[StevenBauer]

I took pics when we were out for a sail last night:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/summer%202008/IMG_2601.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/summer%202008/IMG_2600.jpg

She came with a spare crank, too, a piece of 3/8" square stock bent in a z shape.


Steven

[PeterSibley]

A very nice setup Steven ! :) Have you ever operated it with the worm mechanism underneath ? I wonder what would happen in the case of the boom "skying" ?

[Dan McCosh]

I was talking to a friend who remembered racing on a NY32 with a roller-furling boom. The trick to getting the main to set was to take the berth cushions out and shove them alongside the boom, then roll them up with the reefed sail. This took the bagging out of the center. Problem, of course, was trying to sleep on a soaking wet berth cushion after it was put back in the bunk.

[Ian McColgin]

Dan and others have illustrated my own abhorance of these roller "reefers". As I recall, Andrew gives a spirited defence of the thing.

It actually is possible - barely and only in certain porportions of sail - to shape the boom that it's not only the right take-up for the first reef but that from there on the added layers of sail cloth almost shape the further reefs nearly right - foil centre a bit aft but whatever.

Every person up here I know with roller reefing who needs to reef goes to slab sooner or later.

G'luck

[Dan McCosh]

I would think you could have a sailmaker put a shaped foam layer on the bottom of the main, as they do with foam-luff roller-furling jibs, to make make the sail set when it is furled. Still, I do prefer slab reefing.

[Ian McColgin]

Another problem with roller reefing main is that you can not put in your reef(s) before leaving the mooring. When it's honking a northeast gale and that killer breakwall is but a hundred feet to leeward, I like to be able to have my reef slapped in before I hoist.

But then, I'm such a wuss.

[StevenBauer]

Peter, this is how it was set up when we got the boat and as it seems to work just fine we haven't changed anything. The boom is shaped to help the set of the furled sail. We've reefed at the mooring, I'm not sure what you mean, Ian. This setup has been in place for 49 years and I just don't see any reason to change it.

Steven

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ok, here we go:

1. I do not recommend roller reefing on a Bermudian mainsail.

2. I absolutely do not recommend in-mast reefing or in-boom reefing.

3. The worst rig to reef that I ever sailed with (delivery, not my own boat) was a cheap version of a fully battened mainsail with single line reefing - the friction in the batten cars left us unable to hoist or lower in the middle of the Thames estuary (i.e. in a narrow channel with sandbanks all round) in a rising gale in the middle of a January night.

4. Hooking on the leech pendant is a great way to go OB

5. Reeving the next reef pendant because you left it unrove is an even better way to go OB.

6. Catching the leech canvas in the pendant is great for your sailmaker, less good for you.

7. Forgetting to untie a reef nettle, ditto...

8. Most modern versions have way too much friction in them - what works Ok on a summer afternoon won't work at night in a gale (see 3)

9. Roller reefing, espescially the worm drive type, can be done short handed in any conditions that I have experienced. The reason the Bristol pilots fitted the gear, whilst fishermen did not, is that pilots make more money than fishermen.

10. You can reef on any point of sailing; no need to bring the boom aboard.

11. Much is made of the difficulty of reefing when still on the mooring or at anchor, but I can honestly say that, in 24 years, I have never been inconvenienced by this. If the boat is riding head to wind, there's no problem - hoist the full sail and reef it. If the boat is not lying head to wind, you won't be setting the mainsail until you are under way, anyway.

Well, I could go on...

[John B]

You'll be fine Steven, its small enough and the sail light enough that you can just manually haul a bit aft if you get the dreaded creep. When the leech creeps in , as it does if you haven't got the boom topped perfectly , then the foot gets shape . It makes a full shaped sail, and that of course is the exact opposite of what you must have in a breeze.
I persevered with the roller reefing a few years when we first boaught Waione and she was bermudan, may have been a couple. What turned me off mostly ( and I used to do that trick with the packing) was the day I had reefed in a breeze, everything had worked out well I thought, but when were sailing eased sheets I looked at the boom and this giant ,5 1/2 inch thick ,23 ft long piece of oregon was bending like bamboo. It was quite frightening. A sailing mentor at that time pointed out that was a common occurence with roller reefing , so I changed to slab. Its not just the simplicity and sail shape and the fact that everything needs to be just right with roller to get the same as slab, its that the stress gets carried in the correct places and unfair loadings aren't going on in places they should not be.

Can it and does it work.. of course it does , and when you get an expert like Andrew who's prepared to get it right .. sure.
But . When it hits the fan , you're getting shredded in a 40 knot squall, the boat is bucking and laying over, you're wet to your chest and you can't see for the spray in your eyes, you want to be able to reef by brail. Drop the cringle onto the horn or haul it down by dedicated tack line, haul in the clew , crank the living daylights out of it with winch or pulley to get the foot absolutely flat , and then crank an extra inch out of it as well, and do the same with the halyard. Its all really simple stuff but the main point is you can adjust .. need more foot tension because you failed to put enough go the first go,then crank some more on.

edit . Sorry if it seems like we're pickin on you Peter. Only decent dang thread going :D Plus its nice stuff you've got there and it'll convert well:p

[PeterSibley]

Thanks John ! I thought the subject might get a discussion going ! :)
BTW ,John ,did you experiment with Andrew's "boom strap" ? A support for the boom at the rolled leech boom intersection .It seems to solve the unsupported boom problem ,offshore at least .

and yes, it is a very nicely made piece of gear and over engineered enough to make me happy .Now that it has arrived ,I think I did very well .

[Stephen]

http://www.pilotcutter.ca/images/History/Malaspina%20sailing%203.jpg
Some weak points
1 - as more sail is rolled onto the boom, the leech moves further and further inboard putting a great bending strain on the middle of the boom... with the possibility of breaking it.
2 - You can't have a boom that extends beyond the stern of your boat. Your boom has to terminate over the counter to accomodate the revolving band for the mainsheet and topping lifts.

Strong points
1 - You can reef short-handed on any point of sail.
2 - You can reef or shake it out quicker than slab.

I find that if you leave the peak halyard alone for the first roll the aft end of the boom doesn't drag/droop down.
A comment was made regarding lazing jacks - you can run them off of twin topping lifts - as in the above picture.
My wife has reefed Carlotta's mainsail by herself, in a few short minutes, with the sail drawing full.:cool:

[Ian McColgin]

I've happily slab reefed solo in strong winds. I have not been caught with full sail in anything like a Strong Gale (Force 9, wind mid forties) but rather put reefs in in order. Given propers lifts and jacks, it's perfectly easy to pull in a reef on a beam reach.

I've enough time on boats with roller reefing to know that you're not going to get another reef in if you can't luff the sail at least a little to move the sail without tearing it. The roller is slower thnt slab in a marconi, where tying in the nettles is mostly optional. A boat like Marmalade, with a very long foot, needs her nettles for a good set which slows the process to about like roller reefing. Of course, a long boom can't be sheated at the end anyway, so roller is out.

So strong point 1 is not true in both parts - not quicker and can't roller reef on any point of sail that can't be done faster and more easily with slab.

Point two is also untrue. Nothing faster than popping a slab if no nettles tied. It's about 90 seconds to pop Marmalade's nettles so that's still faster than unrolling.

Thistle's have an interesting roller system. If it turns out class rules prohibit slab and if they allow a bit boom shaping I might give it a try to get one reef - about all you'd want in a wee boat anyway.

De gustibus and different long splices and all that.

G'luck

[shamus]

Trouble is I keep visualising that nice foolproof slab reefing at midnight ,wind strength rising , rain falling


Mine isn't set up to reef from the cockpit, but many boats in our marina are- just a matter of leading reefing lines and halyards back to the cockpit. I don't think it looks nice on a traditional boat- but for practicality..So (on the wind) you'd probably ease the sheet a bit, put the reefing line on a self tailing winch, winch with one hand, ease the halyard with the other, all the time with the tiller between ya legs. Lazy jacks take care of the rest. Not quite so easy with a gaff- as I guess you ease the peak and throat halyards at different rates.

[Tom3]

Andrew , here's a photo of the boom end fitting that came with the roller .

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/336018144.jpg

To all the critics, you could well be right on this but as my rig will closely resemble Andrew's , I shall take his advice :).I have to steer one course on this and feel that in my case the advantages (as I see them ) will make the roller well worthwhile .....of course redoing the boom (as several of you have done ) would not seem to much of a problem anyway.

Thanks for all the advice.

The boat I own has the orginal 1961 roller furling boom mechanism. The first thing I learned about it was, that it worked. Having always had boats with slab reefing, I was a little surprised.

The system has many of the drawbacks others have listed, but now with 8 seasons of coastal sailing, I can say it's a much better system than I anticipated when I bought the boat.

A real plus is the mainsail must have been well designed. I've never had a flatter sail shape with my previously slab reefed boats. However, you do get some wrinkles from boom to roach (vertical), but they're small. Also, not much you can do about the fluttering leech, the clam cleat for the leech line is rolled away with the sail.

Another big negative is off course you can't have a conventional vang. This is the biggest drawback I've found. We have an old style strap and that works well but is time consuming. Our boom end fitting has provisions for adding a preventer though as the main is reefed. Again that's slow but when you need it for a long run, it works.

But back to the good side, first, again, it works quite well. I always reef the sail by myself (often a family member at the helm), it's sure, simple and strong. I'll often do this underway close hauled with the main luffing and the jib and mizzen on our yawl drawing. It's an easy one person task requiring no muscle, just balance at the mast.

Also I don't hesitate to roll a reef in at the mooring. I simply push the sail onto the port cabin and roll up what I need. You will get a few more wrinkles doing this, but you can pull some cloth aft as you do it. Usually I'm doing this because winds are very stiff outisde, so a few extra wrinkles aren't much of a problem.

[Ian McColgin]

Fool proof is practiced. It's that simple. Practice reefing in gentle conditions analysizing any glitches and solving them as you practice in increasingly severe conditions. Anyone who owns a boat for more than a week without getting the reefing system worked out is seriously irresponsible and a catastrophe waiting to happen.

I put the lifts, reef clews and tacks ready to hand by the hallyards. On Goblin (Alden 43' schooner, 720 foot main) and Granuaile (55' 20 ton LFH Marco Polo) this meant at the starboard base of each mast. On Marmalade (Brewer's Chappaquiddick 25 cat boat, 550 square feet, 6 tons) this is at the forward edge of the cockpit as getting out by the mast to handle those lines is a bit hazardous.

G'luck

[Stephen]

Having used both slab and roller reefing on Carlotta, I'll stand firmly in what I said - I believe the roller to be faster, safer, and requiring less hands/crew.
This is partly owing to the large diameter Appledore worm gear - which is almost twice the diameter of the boom.
http://www.pilotcutter.ca/images/2006/boomhardware.jpg

[Bob Cleek]

Another roller here who went to slab decades ago. Properly rigged, slab reefing is much, much more efficient, particularly when there is any amount of wind blowing. I did retain my roller gear intact, however, and can use it either way if I so desire.

Most of the problems with roller reefing mains result from improper boom design. A roller reefing boom must be tapered so that the clew end is larger in diameter than the tack end. The rate of this taper must match the cut of the main, such that the longer leech is rolled up at a greater rate per turn than the shorter luff. Only this will prevent "boom droop," "leech creep," and a poor shape in the reefed sail. Even so... slab gets my vote. No matter how well your rolling system works, I think that slab is much kinder to the sail in terms of stress distribution.

[sv Lorelei]

Same here. Roller is fine but in order to get a good sail shape you need to let the boom sag as you furl which means you have to be at the mast playing the topping lift as you furl and with your third hand making sure that the slugs coming out of the slot don't run forward onto the reefing crank. Bottom line.....it's not fast if you want a proper reef. It is faster if you don't. If you're reefing in conditions you'll need to put a reef in, you'll want a good one.

Ergo. We got the new main arranged for slab reefing.....sooooo much better.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Wonder if we can keep this going till after the US elections? ;)

I am most definitely in Stephen's camp.

[PeterSibley]

Andrew , is your boom shaped with an increasing taper aft ?

BTW ,did you get my PM ?

[John B]

I think we do need to keep it going. Its so civilised ,and much more interesting than politics. I'm curious as to the size of squab and best pattern to have on the upholstery you stuff along the foot to pack it out ,for example.:p
Maybe we could extend it to best methods for slab reefing anyway and the etymology of ' nettles' ,a word guaranteed to crack me up and leave my crew rolling around the cockpit in uncontrollable mirth.

I might even tell you you my blonde reefing joke/ true story.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

No, because it's a gaff mainsail which was designed for roller reefing. The boom lifts as we reef; it does not droop.

Stephen I am sure will say the same.

People are still confusing rolling a bermudian sail with rolling a gaff sail.

[Tom3]

Wonder if we can keep this going till after the US elections? ;)

I am most definitely in Stephen's camp.

Not being about anchors, that's doubtful Andrew. The taper to my boom is very subtle. Much more of it is at the gooseneck end but I've never spent much time measuring it.

My boat sure likes a reef though so I roll it up whenever I suspect it might increase speed.



http://lh3.ggpht.com/165russell/SN_8fGtfB8I/AAAAAAAAABg/4tub2NoDlx4/Roller%20furled%20main2.jpg

[PeterSibley]

Having used both slab and roller reefing on Carlotta, I'll stand firmly in what I said - I believe the roller to be faster, safer, and requiring less hands/crew.
This is partly owing to the large diameter Appledore worm gear - which is almost twice the diameter of the boom.
http://www.pilotcutter.ca/images/2006/boomhardware.jpg

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/335821628.jpg (http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/335821628.jpg)

Stephen ,I'm interested in the differences in our two gears .Mine is the more modern with a much smaller wheel (and enclosed of course ) but probably the same reduction ratio.Is there anything else ?

The other thing is that your boom appears quite straight and parallel , none of the swelling or packing mentioned by others .Is that just for a bermudan main ? Does a gaff main not require it ?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Stephen's boom looks just about perfect to me.

Notice the lacing batten; this is important both in adding a surprising amount of stiffness (finish reefing with the batten either UP or DOWN!) and in keeping the foot of the sail where it ought to be. This matters!

A groove in the boom for the footrope and a hitched lacing does not cut it - the footrope will come out of the groove and you will get a messy reefed sail (er, don't ask me how I know that..:o)

[Stephen]

Peter - probably the main difference between the two would be the weight - with the worm gear attached its got to be around 50lbs+.
I think Lunenburg foundry has cast them in the past - probably not for $78 though!;)
Ours is of the old Appledore Patent - used widely on Bristol Channel pilot cutters. There were all sorts of other patents - some more in favour in one port than the next - including ones that operated on a pump handle mechanism with ratchets.
Some of the Appledore type had a 5 worm part - which was powerful enough to tear the weather rope out of the sail. Most popular was the 3 worm.
No upholstery or small children stuffed in there as of yet... :)

[PeterSibley]

Peter - probably the main difference between the two would be the weight - with the worm gear attached its got to be around 50lbs+.
I think Lunenburg foundry has cast them in the past - probably not for $78 though!;)
Ours is of the old Appledore Patent - used widely on Bristol Channel pilot cutters. There were all sorts of other patents - some more in favour in one port than the next - including ones that operated on a pump handle mechanism with ratchets.
Some of the Appledore type had a 5 worm part - which was powerful enough to tear the weather rope out of the sail. Most popular was the 3 worm.
No upholstery or small children stuffed in there as of yet... :)

My new acquisition weighs about 35 pound , so I'm close behind you .:)

I'm assuming by 3 worm part you mean 3 starts to the worm ? A complicated bit of machining for the likes of me .