Tackling a Bluejay

[WoodGuy1138]

Hi everyone

This is my first post and I'd like to get some advice regarding using epoxies to stabilize marine plywood. I'm currently thinking of restoring my first ever project, a BlueJay class sailboat and I've been trying to get a handle on what would be involved. While discussing the project with a woodturning friend of mine he mentioned various epoxies that he uses on spalled wood. The Bluejay's hull is marineply and needs attention. Considering the time, cost and my still emerging skillset regarding replacment of the hull I'm considering using an epoxy that penetrates well enough to stabilize the ply, seal leaks, has some flexibility and could be painted. I've come up with the following names. Any advice would be appreciated. West Systems, ESP-155, PolyAll2000, MAS Epoxies, System 3 and Smith and Co.

Thanks everyone

[Uncle Duke]

Fun boat!
More questions than answers, I'm afraid, but we can start with a comment about paint: any of them will take paint quite nicely. No problems there.
Flexibility is a different issue - most epoxies are very stiff (almost brittle), though West now has one specifically made for flex: "650-8 G/Flex". The questions would be "where do you need flexibility, and how much?"
Ply boats will not leak except where two pieces meet or where the plywood itself is broken. Where are the leaks in your boat? Between panels? Where panels meet keel? Someplace else?
Which leads to: what do you mean by 'stabilize the ply'? Do you have pieces which are wet/delaminating? Answers will vary depending on the situation...
Let us know the specifics and somebody smart will weigh in!
Oh - and "Welcome" <Grin!>

[ishmael]

Welcome.

The idea that epoxy will fix questionable ply isn't right. If it's a bit delaminated yet still sound epoxy can help to pull things back together if done right, but it won't fix major problems with rot.

Have a poke! Most Bluejays are from the fifties and early sixties, and built with aces plywood, so there's probably good hope.:)

Nice little boats.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

In my estimation your problem is not what brand of epoxy to buy but, rather, can this hull be salvaged by merely gluing it back together?
Rotted wood, (plywood, dimensional lumber, whatever) cannot be made new again by applications of epoxy or epoxylike products.
Hulls with extensive microbe damage can and have been made usable again but the duration of the repair is directly proportionate to the amount of time, money and effort expended to make things right.
There are plenty of requests like yours in the archives here. Dig up a few and see how the conversation panned out.

[Thorne]

Great choice of boats -- I sailed both a '57 and a '67 Bluejay all over the Bay Area and mountain lakes.

As above, you may not need to epoxy the hull completely, and if you do, you'll want to use fiberglass cloth, Xynole or some other binder/cloth with the epoxy.

The Bluejay hull will flex (aka oilcan) a bit when sailed hard, so just a coating of epoxy without cloth will eventually crack. Since they were built without it, I'd be tempted to just use thickened epoxy for the seams and Smith's CPES for a primer/sealer before painting.

Please give us more specifics on this restoration -- will you be replacing some parts of the ply hull completely, but trying to patch others? Photos are always a big help.

[Texasgaloot]

We picked up hull no.-1121 back in 1966, and we still have her in the family. I won a lot of races in her as a kid.

We are about to embark in a restoration as well, as the New York State winters (where she is) tend to be hard on a boat. Our restoration is extensive; stem, parts of plywood planking, a couple of frames, transom, and possibly deck carlins as well. We are going to try to cut out the diseased ply and scarf in new, using West System epoxy, which is what I'm comfortable using. The keel has an 8" long check right underneath the mast step which I think the epoxy will solve as well, given that we will encase with Xynole as suggested by Thorne. It should be very do-able. Let us know when you start, and please post photos- we can help better (or at least sound like we are helping better) if we can see what it is you mean.

Glad to have you aboard!

[andrewdarius]

Hello there,

My wife, Jenny , and I are currently enjoying the restoration of a Blue Jay, hull #492. The sides and deck are in reasonable shape, but we're replacing the bottom and keel this winter. The S&S office in NY can provide nicely detailed plans to assist you.
My thoughts are as Thorne described, epoxy to glue the panels, and only cpes and paint afterward. The hull was not originally sheathed. Since our idea is to dry-sail or day sail it, we feel the hull will not be in the water enough to warrent the fiberglass. She's lasted since 1957 without it.

Keep in touch, we can share pics of the process.

Andy

[Alan Peck]

andrewdarius: Can you tell us how to get a set of plans from S&S? I have written and sent e-mails to S&S about four times in the last couple of years. I have not even gotten a response from them.

Thanks

[Tom Robb]

Woodguy,
Your post sounds like you're under the illusion that some miracle goo will fix the boat's problems. Not likely. Epoxy isn't a magic wand or miracle pill. Restoring a rotted delaminated hull is, realistically, a matter of replacing all the bits that have failed. The road to hell is littered with shortcuts.

[PJ15Num1]

I am currently "touching-up" ("restoring" is too strong a word) a 1946 Point Jude 15 (Hull #1) which I understand is very similar to the Blue Jays in design and construction, though about 30% larger. Would be very interested to see pictures of your project.

[PJ15Num1]

The Point Jude's planking is 3/8" doug fir marine ply. I haven't found any rot, but I have found a couple of places on the hull near the sheer where the plys have delaminated or "blistered." I don't intend to sheath anything in glass on the boat, just to use epoxy as an adhesive where appropriate. Since the blisters are small (<10 sq. in.), I was thinking of routing out the top plies down to the delaminated area and letting-in a patch of veneer, sanding and painting. This is new to me so I don't know if this is an accepted technique, or if I should just dig it out and fill it with West System epoxy and an appropriate thickener. I'll probably make it hard on myself and do the former...

[Alan Peck]

Sorry to repeat this, but I didn't want this to dissapear down the to the depth's of the forum.

andrewdarius: Can you tell us how to get a set of plans from S&S? I have written and sent e-mails to S&S about four times in the last couple of years. I have not even gotten a response from them.

Thanks

[StevenBauer]

Alan, have you contacted the Bluejay Class Association? Someone there must know.

http://www.sailbluejay.org/


Steven

[Thorne]

The way it used to work was that builders who completed a Bluejay had to pay S&S something like $200 == which was a lot more money in the 50's.

So a number of boats were built for resale with just the hulls finished, then sold with the deck parts and hardware to others to finish...and pay the fees to S&S.

[Chris Coose]

No expert at old plywood but I've been around it since I got my first Bluejay out of the dump when I was about 11.
I got a Bluejay on a decent trailer 3 years ago for $100.00. I looked for the obvious and then I looked closely at the surface of the plywood in and out and all around. My initial survey proved good. The deck needed replacement but I just scraped and painted it because it is the deck and this is a trailerable day boat. Amazing how the Rustoleum paint has stuck to lousy plywood.

Now, to the point. I have an old plywood pram that I found on the curb, headed toward the dump. The plywood was in tough shape all over. I made it worse by cartopping the skiff during the summers. I couldn't keep her tight due to the checking in the plywood. I glassed the entire bottom a couple of years ago and that should last a while.

Like any restoration, it is knowing when to quit ripping.
On a skiff I really don't care much. Different with a little sailboat.

[andrewdarius]

Sorry for not responding sooner. I use the computer at work, so I'm out of touch on weekends.

I believe I was able to make contact with their NY office by email. If this isn't working for you, I would call, 212-661-1240. They offer blackline prints, which come in a folder containing a Blue Jay Assoc. handbook. I'm not sure why they haven't responded to you...

Andy

[WoodGuy1138]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I will try to respond to as many of the posts as I can.

I am not replacing any parts of the hull. Just trying to seal and strengthen the whole hull surface. Some blistering but no flaking and some minor leaking where the panels meet the keel. Nothing that warrants a major retrofit. The reason I am considering using an epoxy is my woodturner friend uses epoxies to stabilize rotted/spalled woods with some pretty amazing results. Some set very quickly, some are more flexible than others, some have better penetration because they are the same viscosity as water. It sounds quicker, cheaper and easier to use something like this as opposed to fibreglass.

I will post some pics as soon as I can get up to the cottage and set myself up. It's tarped right now.

I am not taking shortcuts through choice as much as necessity. Limited time, funds, etc. And I want to get in the water sooner rather than later. I'm just getting into boating and as I said there is a pretty substantial learning curve. Doing a full restoration on this boat will have to wait. And is not immediately needed.

Where can I find the numbers on the boat? I've been told it's a BlueJay, it looks like a BlueJay, but....

Thanks again everyone.

[ishmael]

"Where can I find the numbers on the boat?"

I assume you mean a serial number? It's often stamped into the stem.

[Alan Peck]

Andy: Thanks for the information about the plans. I'll give it a try.

Alan

[Uncle Duke]

The reason I am considering using an epoxy is my woodturner friend uses epoxies to stabilize rotted/spalled woods with some pretty amazing results. Some set very quickly, some are more flexible than others, some have better penetration because they are the same viscosity as water.
There are distinctions between epoxies which are adhesives/fillers (WEST, MAS, System-3, etc) and epoxies which are 'treatments' (CPES is most widely knows). Obviously you want to use the correct one for the intended purpose. If you want to fix places where the panel is lose from the keel, for instance, you would want an adhesive type, probably with a filler of some kind spread or injected into place.
If you simply want to soak the (bare) plywood with something which will penetrate deeply and minimize future moisture absorption, then you'd want something like CPES.
Neither type will, by itself, 'firm up' the plywood of course (in the sense of making it less bendy) - but the adhesive types will harden the surface to some extent.