Chisel Steels

[Songololo]

In the process of looking for a set of bench chisels, preferably locally made, I came across Pfeil (http://www.pfeiltools.ch/cgi-bin/flexi060614?WEB=TFOMHNRHb0kAAIwTaeMAAAC5&Q=&S=3:1:22::0:7:::1::&P=&MT=main2). The steel they use is their own recipe, but I was told that it is very close to 115CrV3 or number 1.2210.

This is what they look like:

http://www.pfeiltools.ch/bilder/pfeiltools/stechbeitel/171-1%5B1%5D.jpg

Theoretically, how well would they take (ease of sharpening and degree of sharpness) and retain an edge compared to say O1 and A2 steel chisels?

Here are the compositions (wt%) for these steels:



O1: C(0.90),Cr(0.50),Ni(0.50),Mn(1.40),W(0.50)
A2: C(1.00),Cr(5.00),Ni(-),Mn(-),W(5.00)



115CrV3 (http://www.metallograf.de/start-eng.htm?werkstoffkartei-eng/2210/2210.htm): C(1.2),Cr(0.75),Ni(-),Mn(0.3),Si(0.2),V(0.1)

(115CrV3 can also contain a max 0.03wt% each of P and S)

[ishmael]

No offense intended, but go use it and see how it does. Buy one and see how it does.

The best chisel I have was made a long time ago. I don't know what the language you posted is, and it may be worthy, but the proof is in the pudding. I wouldn't trade this one inch chisel for god nor money.

[Mrleft8]

FWW did a chisel comparison in the last issue (or the one before it....) These were rated either "very good" or "excellent" in all catagories. Seems to be mid-road price wise. It was "a very close runner up for best over-all" in the comparison.

[Captain Blight]

LEFTY'S BACK!! WOOOOOOO!!!!


I've got a Pfeil chisel. I like it a lot. The handle isn't as comfortable as my old Hibbard OVBs; the steel seems to be about on a par. Maybe a little harder, with all that brings with it. It's difficult to say for sure.

[Battenkiller]

Alloy is only a small part of the equation. Equally important are the hardening method and subsequent tempering. Many tool makers today are using A2 as a premium steel, but in order to increase the toughness they cryogenically treat the steel with liquid nitrogen between the multiple temperings.

As said above, try one and use it for a few weeks. If you love it then proceed on with others. Woodcraft has Pfeil as their premium line. When I worked there I was privy to the wholesale cost of theses items and got an inkling as to why they pushed them so hard. There was about a 500% markup on many of the Pfeil carving tools. Not to say that that makes them garbage, but the incentive to market them as a top of the line product is at least a bit biased toward higher profit margins.

In use, (I have several gouges) all I can say is that they are easy to sharpen and, yes, you can achieve a shaving edge. The burr comes off them readily with a bit of stroping. They hold their edge for a while when used in soft wood but give up the ghost quickly when pushed hard in hardwoods. Would I compare them in quality to a fine (expensive) Japanese blade or a great forged carbon steel blade from 100 years ago - no way. But for someone on a budget, they might be just the ticket.

[Songololo]

Mrleft8, thanks for that. I managed to track down a copy of the article - interesting.

Battenkiller, interesting comment about the pricing. Yes, the manufacturing process and associated quality control seems to play a big role and somehow needs to be factored into one's chisel selection process.The question in how?

This may seem like a bit of a ramble, but here goes anyway...

Having read a number of articles on chisels on this (thanks Bob Smalser) and other woodwork forums, it appears as though 'high carbon steel' is generally the preferred steel for chisels.

Is O1 steel the modern equivalent of what has (and still is?) referred to generally as 'high carbon steel', when talking about wood chisels?

Old chisels are generally not available locally i.e. Switzerland, on eBay or other 2nd hand sites, nor the local 2nd hand shops. Buying old chisels from other countries in the region is also not my first option, judging by the prices of items on eBay.

As a result of this, I am looking for locally or regionally made new chisels as my first choice. If this does not work out I shall look further abroad.

This was why I asked about the 115CrV3 steel in the first place :).

Right, back to steels .... without getting too technical ;)

Many of the new chisels are labeled or described as being made from:


high carbon steel
carbon steel
chrome vanadium steel
chrome molybdenum steel
sheffield steel

These terms are not necessarily too useful as they don't accurately reflect the type of steel used? A quick look at Wikipedia will tell you that a carbon steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel)contains 0.05-2.10wt% carbon. Most of the steels in the above list fall into this category!

Do you see my dilemma?

Some of the manufacturers of new chisels will advertise their products with enough technical information e.g. Lie-Nielsen's website lists their bench chisels as being made of A2 steel. That helps. After a quick email to Ashley Iles, I now know that they use O1 steel for their bench chisels. It would make things a lot easier if the manufacturers published this information ... without being asked.

Question time!

Can anyone provide any information (SAE or equivalent designations) on what the following steels consist of i.e. when dealing with wood chisels:


high carbon steel
carbon steel
chrome vanadium steel
chrome molybdenum steel
sheffield steel

[Bob Smalser]

Chrome-moly isn't a tool steel, and Sheffield is just a common location like Toledo that became a trade name for carbon steel.

From FWW Mag:

What you need to know about chisel steel.

Here is a general rundown of the steels commonly found in chisels. Manufacturers generally use High Carbon steel; where different steel like A2 is used, that steel is generally more expensive and will be labeled as such. All these except High Speed Steel burn rather easily when sharpening on a grinder – turn that steel blue from heat, and it loses its temper and must be ground more slowly until the burned, blue steel is ground away.

Today, steels of all types are exceptionally uniform and of high quality, but that wasn’t the case a century and more ago, and manufacturers then proudly advertised the special qualities of their steel. As a result, some names like “Crucible” and “Sheffield” dating back as far as the late 1700’s are still sometimes currently used.

High Carbon Steel

After the processes were developed and refined during the middle 1800’s to reliably produce large quantities of high carbon tool steel inexpensively, such steel became the mainstay of edge tool production that continues today. “Sheffield Steel”, “Warranted Cast Steel”, modern 01 and other Tool Steels, “Swedish Steel”, “Crucible Steel”, and others. Many of the chisels made during the late 1800’s still serve admirably today; as properly forged and heat treated carbon steel takes an excellent edge while is very easy to resharpen using traditional composite, water or oilstones.

Chrome Vanadium Steel

A modern, shiny tool steel used for mechanic’s tools and only occasionally seen in lower grades of chisels. The chromium and vanadium add hardness, toughness and rust resistance, and if properly made, I’m told, they can take a good cutting edge. Unfortunately, the only way I know to determine whether the chisel was properly made is to hone and use it, and of course, by then you’ve already purchased it. These are more difficult to sharpen than carbon steel, and I’m not sure if it’s the steel or the manufacturing process, but in lower tool grades it can be impossible to obtain an “excellent” cutting edge.


High Speed Steel

M2 and other formulations. Chromium, tungsten, molybdenum and vanadium are added to resist softening when the steel is overheated during use or sharpening on a high-speed grinder. Used primarily in drill bits and lathe tools, this steel is expensive, hard, tough, easy and fast to grind, holds its cutting edge longer than carbon steel, but is very difficult to hand hone and doesn’t take as fine an edge using typical sharpening stones short of diamond paste on an indexing plate.

A2 Steel

The modern compromise. High carbon steel with chromium and molybdenum added in smaller amounts than some other modern steels, but sufficient to add some toughness, hardness and longer edge life at minimum expense to the quality of the cutting edge and ease of sharpening. I find these harder blades only slightly more difficult to hand hone on traditional stones than carbon steel, and very doable without resorting to the expensive diamond pastes often recommended. I also find A2 blades take a very good edge and hold it as long or slightly longer than my best prewar carbon tools.

Rockwell Hardness

More compromises. The Rockwell index is simply a hardness test of the final, tempered blade. Chisels available today can range from RC 56 (relatively soft) to RC 64 (relatively hard). Softer steel is easier to sharpen but doesn’t hold its edge as long as harder steel, which takes longer to sharpen but holds its edge longer. Chisels above the RC 62 range can also be brittle, if not during use then when you accidentally knock one on a concrete floor and find you have a badly chipped edge that must be severely reground, shortening the life of that tool. As a practical matter working at or close to a bench, I find chisels so fast and easy to touch up on the stones, that harder steel with longer edge life isn’t necessarily better for me - my preference is the ability to take the sharpest cutting edge I can hone, but hone easily. In my plane irons however, it is real convenient to not have to dismantle, hone, reassemble and adjust any more often than I absolutely have to, and depending on the plane, that preference may take precedence over my very best cutting edge.



Forging – does it make a difference?

I think so, but it can be controversial. One view is that the more the hammer is used in shaping the hot blade as opposed to grinding it, the smaller the crystalline structure of the steel becomes and the better aligned that structure is with the cutting edge, with other benefits in carbon and grain size as well. Older tools and hand-forged tools are better because they have been shaped more by forging than modern tools. The counterargument is that in contrast to the inconsistent-quality steels of the 19th Century, high-quality modern steels benefit most from proper heat treatment, and that poor results come from manufacturer shortcuts taken to cut costs, not lack of forging. The middle ground is that additional forging is more expensive, and a manufacturer going to that expense is more likely to get the rest of it right.

As a practical matter in chisels, the differences are often subtle and subjective, but are certainly there. Almost all my older professional friends in the woodworking trades much prefer the best prewar makes of chisels to new factory chisels, however expensive. Hand forged, best quality steel is the mainstay of legions of knowledgeable Japanese tool woodworkers, and many of today’s popular custom tool and knife makers wouldn’t still be in business hand-forging edge tools if they didn’t have a superior product.

[Ian McColgin]

Pete Culler and George Kelley made their chisels from old leaf springs. They forged most of the blade shape and tempered, if I recall rightly, to light straw.

[Songololo]

Bob, thanks for that. Just what I was looking for. I searched all over except FWW...

Here's another good FWW article 'Woodworker's Guide to Steel (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Materials/MaterialsPDF.aspx?id=2903)', for those who have FWW membership, or others, like me, who have a 14 day trial :D.

How would the Pfeil 115CrV3 steel (steel number 1.2210, ~ Silver Steel,~ Drill Rod?) compare to other steels? Would it have characteristics similar to O1, A2 or something else? I am trying to get a feel for where the Pfeil chisel steel sits relative to what information we already have.

If chrome vanadium is stamped or printed on a blade, are we talking about any tool steel containing Cr & V, or are we talking specifically about D or H1-H19 grades of tool steel?

[Bob Smalser]

* O1: C(0.90),Cr(0.50),Ni(0.50),Mn(1.40),W(0.50)

* A2: C(1.00),Cr(5.00),Ni(-),Mn(-),W(5.00)

* 115CrV3: C(1.2),Cr(1.65),Ni(-),Mn(0.3),Si(0.2),V(0.09)



I don't have a clue how your Swiss steel will work without getting and using an edge with the stuff.

Chromium hardens it but also makes it hard to sharpen.....yet the tungsten ameliorates that......manganese makes it all alloy easier....but vanadium makes it gummy. Then there's how it's heat treated and forged.....

The best modern chisels I got to try courtesy of FWW were Barr's.....except nobody can afford them.

http://www.barrtools.com/assets/Tools/cabinetmakers.jpg

http://barrtools.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=BST&Category_Code=CMCS

The new ones of affordable price I liked the best were Ashley Iles.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=IL-100-10.XX&Category_Code=CLW

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/prodimg/il/big/IL-100-10XX_big.gif

[Battenkiller]

Here is some data on the steel you mentioned (Pfeil):

Brand name here is "OCR1"

http://www.metalravne.com/selector/steels/OCR1.html

Here it is called Premium L2

http://74.125.113.104/search?q=cache:Mgyn2zp-pGAJ:www.premium-stahl.de/L2.pdf+115CrV3+steel&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us&client=firefox-a

There appears to be a discrepancy regarding the amount of chromium. It is given here as .65% rather that the 1.65% that you quoted. If you have the correct alloy then it would be closer to bearing steel - 52100. 52100 was a highly desirable tool steel among the custom blade makers... before they all got into pattern welded Damascus.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/carbon/52100.html

Anyway, like I said, there is so much going on with tool steel that you can't really know what you've got until it is on the stone and then after you use it on various woods and sharpen it at differing bevel angles. In the custom knife world, some makers are able to use a certain alloy to achieve hundreds of test cuts through 1" manilla rope while another smith can't get the same steel to perform well at all. You'd think that a modern heat treating facility would be able to get the best out of a steel, but all they can do is to achieve high repeatability. Microscopic analysis of the grain structure of the best hand forged blades sometimes leaves the metallurgists scratching their heads in admiration.

BTW, car leaf springs are sometimes 5160, a very good alloy, but they can also be just plain carbon steel like 1065. You need to research into the manufacturers archives (if possible) to be sure what you've got. I'm told that all John Deere tractors have 5160 axles, but I've never been able to get my hands on one to try it out.

On the other hand, plain carbon steel with between 60 and 90 points of carbon (equivalent to 1060 or 1090) was used for the ultimate cutting tool - the Japanese sword. These old smiths didn't have a clue what was in their steel, but they could identify the right stuff for their individual method by sight and heft alone. Then they would fold and forge weld the billet up to 20 times (1000 layers), achieving a final product of supreme homogeneity in its structure.

In general, most hand forgers feel that working the steel (as in forging) reduces the grain size and that liquid nitrogen evens out the conversion of carbon to carbides in the steel. These are both very desirable things to achieve. As well, the timing and the temperature of the quench have drastic effects on the final product. All of these things were worked out empirically by the old master smiths over many years which is why the best old slicks and chisels seem to have an almost magical ability to take and keep a razor edge.

Bottom line for you... try out what you feel is a good quality chisel and work it carefully but hard. If it fails to perform for you, relegate it to a chopping function and try something else for your fine work.

[Songololo]

Battenkiller, thanks for pointing that out - not sure where I got those initail numbers from. I have now corrected the average composition for 115CrV3 and included a link to the source for these values.

This link (http://www.metallograf.de/start-eng.htm?werkstoffkartei-eng/2210/2210.htm) contains a comprehensive list of average and range (clink on blue numbers for table of ranges) of compositions for various steels based on the steel number e.g. 1.2210. Also included are image of the steel at different magnifications, for those who like detail :D

While on the subject of tool steels, do you perhaps know what steel the Bahco 1031 range of bench chisels is made from. I am still waiting for a reply from Bahco on this. The 1031s look like this:
http://www.workshopheaven.com/eStore/media/images/product_xlarge/1031300.jpg

http://www.workshopheaven.com/eStore/media/images/product_xlarge/1031-40.jpg


Bahco also have other ranges i.e. 414, 424P, 434 and 425 (beechwood handles). More info here (http://www.bahco.com/files/Chisels_janitnufipmcpujbmnpfufbso.pdf).

[Songololo]

I recently bought a small set of the Ashley Isles shown in a previous post.

They are easier to sharpen and hold a much sharper edge than my other two chisels, a Bahco 1031 and CrV non name German brand. All have a 25 degree bevel - no micro or secondary bevel. The cuts in the 15mm wide block shown below give an idea of the difference in quality of cut. Looking at the top picture and only the cuts on the right half of the block - from left to right - AI and then Bahco 1031. The AIs cut easily across grain and gave a far better surface:


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2981407017_2dacf4ce80.jpg

This shows the cuts from a different angle:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2981406587_6b0bcc7d44.jpg

A Pfeil chisel should be arriving sometime soon. We'll see how it fares relative to the AIs and bahco 1031 ...