Steering System

[al ailsworth]

I recently saw a hydraulic steering system on a schooner , two rams attached to the rudder quadrant, and would like some help concerning such a system.
I don't know what make or model, but doesn't such a system require electric power to run fluid continuously? Or is there a hydraulic system that does't need electric power? If it needs power continuously, isn't this quite a drain on the batteries under sail?

[Ron Williamson]

The helmsman powers a lot of them.
The wheel is attached directly to the shaft of the pump.
R

[SchoonerRat]

Do you really need hydraulic steering? My preference is to stick with mechanical. You can't feel the boat with hydraulic. Hydraulic also makes it pretty much impossible to mark your kingspoke. I think the process is called precessing. Mark your kingspoke and half an hour later it will have moved half way around the wheel.

[Mad Scientist]

I'm with Schooner Rat on this one.

Why add so much complexity? The best reason I can see for a hydraulic system is 'power steering' for a relatively huge rudder - I have a photo around here somewhere of a South American sail-training ship with three ship's wheels being used simultaneously to control the rudder. Hydraulics would make sense there.

I have a 'hunch' that a mechanical system is simpler to maintain - you can't tell the condition of a hydraulic hose without disassembly and a pressure test.

Tom

[andrewe]

I looked after a 70ft ketch with hydraulic steering. It is commonly used if there are two steering positions. In this case cockpit and wheelhouse. The ram was double acting (one ram) The two helms are self contained pumps and the auto-pilot used a small constant pressure pump to control the ram. This means a constant drain on the electrics, but the boat had two Detroit diesels and a generator. The helm has no feel, but is easy to use. Look at the Vetus site, they sell such systems.
The last time the boat came back to me for winter care the ram had developed a leak. As the lowest point in the system next to the ram was the auto-pilot, the crew, having exhausted the spare oil, were reduced to steering with the auto-pilot remote control and just made it before running out. The emergency tiller had been dropped overboard two days before.....another little job for me.
I told them that water would have done in the system rather than lose control. Easy to flush out after.
My feeling is, if you don´t need it , don´t go there.
Andrew

[Captain Blight]

There is just too much to go wrong in a hydraulic system. I am strenuously not a fan of them. On the river tugs I work on, we are continually chasing down leaks and greasing pivots. Mind you, when you are trying to control something 6-1200 feet long with rudders literally the size of barn doors, hydraulics make a certain amount of sense. But my feeling is they're overkill for most non-commercial applications.

If you're trying to ease helm feel, consider a more balanced rudder. That's a cheap, easy fix.

[Ian McColgin]

On tugs I worked hydraulics had occasional problems, depending on the Chief's attention span, but sailing yacht hydraulics powered by the steering wheel shaft that I've seen were every bit as trouble-free as any other system. In short, mighty good.

The logical power installation alternative to hydraulic is a worm-drive, which is about as dead feeling. Hydraulic has a distinct edge if you want the helm someplace other than right atop the rudder post. An Edson (or similar quality) worm gear will outlast western civilization.

Most rack and pinion gears, which attach readily to a tiller arm, are not so robust but some are so that might be a nice alternative if you want a live feel and don't have room or mechanical advantage for cable and chain to a quadrent.

G'luck

[John B]

Riada came out in 1975 with a tiller ( transom hung rudder) and her second owners wanted a wheel. They fitted up a wheel and hydraulic rams just as you describe and she stayed that way for close on 30 years. She was dead feeling on the helm as SR says above ,and there was creep in the system ,so the last owner pulled all that out and returned her to a tiller boat. She's pretty much a delight to sail now.

[Noah]

I sailed a Whitby 42 up from Florida that had a hydraulic steering system - of all the boats I have steered that was the hardest - no feedback from the helm. Under sail it was ok, but under power it was impossible.

[Ron Williamson]

I've never sailed a hydraulic boat,but have about 1800 miles of slow powerboat time.
It feels way dead ,but it's easy to steer.
The new system has been aboard since 2001,IIRC,but we've had no problems with leaks or the wheel constantly going off-center.It's never perfect, but it doesn't jump around.
R

[Bob Adams]

I'm going to convert Enterprise to hydraulic steering if and when I get around to adding the second station. I also will be adding a rudder position indicator at the same time. If not for the second station, I'd stick with mechanical. That said, I've seen many manually operated hydraulic systems give good service, as Ian indicated.

[al ailsworth]

Thanks for the info. I am not considering installing such a system, but the boat I am looking at has such a system. When you mentioned a hydraulic system is powered by moving the steering wheel, does that mean fluid moves the rams without electric power?

[Gary E]

This site will tell you all you need about Hydraulic Steering
http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/OVERVIEW/oview.htm
http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/INBOARD/inboard.htm


SYSTEM COMPONENTS http://ww2.seastarsteering.com/OVERVIEW/oview1.gif SeaStar manual hydraulic steering systems are simple and efficient. The basic system consists of three main components:

the helm pump,
the cylinder, and

the hose or tubing required to connect the cylinder to the helm pump.
These basic components are necessary in all applications. However as the system variables increase (e.g.: multiple engines, rudders, steering stations and autopilots), additional components may be required.

[py]

I had a 52' boat with hydraulic steering. yes, the pump on the wheel(s) does all the pumping. That doesn't mean it needs constant spinning-I guess its a different sort of system to power steering on a car or whatever. I'm no engineer, so don't understand the detail. It did indeed lack feel, and the wheel would very slowly creep round if sailing with any weather helm. (There was an amount of feedback, you could feel the weather helm).Mine was very robust and reliable, had no problems at all (and did no maintenance!) in the 3 years I had the boat. The boat had 2 steering stations plus an autopilot. Not sure how else you'd do that if not hydraulic.

[Ian McColgin]

Twin helms with cable are dirt simple and can be done in series or - more reliably - in parallel. Most hydraulic dual helms involved depowering one to move to the other. With cable, both stay connected all the time.

[pipefitter]

Modern hydraulic steering for dual station have the master helm plumbed and check valved for dual stations. They work independently of one another. Sometimes, a greater reduction helm is used on the upper station so that the boat is not too quick to react, which is multiplied the higher up you are.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/tigmaster/Picture025.jpg

The advantage of hydraulics is that you don't need such a clean run chase for the hoses as you would for cables. Sleeved cables, such as the teleflex system, need to be installed in as much of a naturally relaxed state as possible or they can be sticky, wear out the liner etc. They also need to be cleaned out and relubricated if they see extreme duty. Most hydraulic systems are very reliable these days, depending on first and foremost, qualified installation. There is also a tilt option with hydraulic helms that may be advantageous if the helm is equipped for standing and sitting.

[JimConlin]

I'm feeling seasick looking at that tower. Seems like it'd be like riding one of these
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/88/6488-004-96D89FFF.jpg

[Lew Barrett]

The only reason I can think of to install a hydraulic system on a single station moderately sized power boat is that most modern autopilots will only work with hydraulics. In fact, I can't think of any major manufacturers making gear driven autopilots these days, although somebody may come along to prove me wrong. I believe (up here) Wood Freeman is still actually repairing their older systems though. I'm less familiar with what is available for sail.

[SV Papillon]

In fact, I can't think of any major manufacturers making gear driven autopilots these days, although somebody may come along to prove me wrong.

Whitlock, now part of Lewmar sells a rotory sproket drive I plan to use, bullet proof reputation. I have a edson worm gear and have grown quite fond of it. there is an old gear drive pilot the whitlock will eventually replace. That said I had a simrad hydraulic pilot on the last boat and loved it 5 years down the west coast and not one issue. Hydraulic steering in general imo is all about modular power, if you can't have everything together, if you can then mechanical is usually better.
Jake

[BETTY-B]

I just talked to a friend a moment ago that's supposed to be off the coast of Mexico. Instead he's sitting in Newport, Oregon waiting for parts to be rechromed on the quadrant end of his hydraulic system that failed 90 miles off the coast. Something about the auto pilot being a higher pressure than the normal hand steering and corrosion effecting the seals or whatever.

He has two steering stations on his schooner also.

Glad he's figuring it out now before I get on for the coconut milk run next year.:)

DAN

[Gary Bergman]

Dunno about all of the autopilot feedback on this one, but we have low pressure hydraulics, single ram, and have had little problems in thousands of open sea miles. Yes, I have an emergency tiller, but haven't ever needed it. With gaffs and squares up, I can get a lot of weather helm, so many times I'm glad it's working well. The pump and ram are original equipment from launch.

[TallShipDreamer]

Didn't I read somwhere that a 'feedback' option was available on Kobelt systems?

David

[Thad Van Gilder]

I thought Kobalt made those nice bronze engine controls...

-Thad

[Rapelapente]

In fact, I can't think of any major manufacturers making gear driven autopilots these days, although somebody may come along to prove me wrong.

Here is the Raymarine one : http://www.raymarine.com/ProductDetail.aspx?SITE=1&SECTION=2&PAGE=220&PRODUCT=393

I have this one connected on an Edson worm gear and it works fine in any conditions.
Anyway, in my experience I never saw any serious problems with hydraulic steerers, sor far the hoses are periodically controled. I'd prefer a two rams system (push/pull), since the efforts are ballanced on the rudder.

[TallShipDreamer]

Have a look here guys:

http://www.kobelt.com/pdf/sailboat.pdf

Spoke to Kobelt - they said their gear is really intended for boats in the 42' region, mainly due to the physical size of the components.

Still a nice idea for a smaller boat though.....

D.

I thought Kobalt made those nice bronze engine controls...

-Thad