ethenol fixes

[pila]

A friend in Florida called and asked me about additives for dealing with ethanol in gasoline powered boats. The only thing I knew about was the additive made by Sta-Bil for protecting against corrosion etc
I made him aware that some old fibreglass tanks could be have resin dissolving problems and getting resin dilution in the fuel . He didn't mention what the tanks are made of.
Are there any other additives that may help with the ethanol problem in marine fuel??:confused:

Michigan has mandated ethanol in gasoline, but luckily there is a local oil company that has "boat gas",with no ethanol, in storage tanks at their facility.
The ethanol mandate has also affected folks who had approval for auto gas in small airplanes in Michigan, and cannot legally use the the alky stuff.

[JBreeze]

When I bought a small Honda 4 stroke outboard this spring, the dealer pretty much said I had to use an additive called Star Tron to keep the carb clean:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:YtnRDKt-7Jr1MM:http://images.buzzillions.com/images_products


Don't know if it is snake oil or not, but sometime I do what I'm told and I always run the outboard dry of gas at the end of a weekend anyway. Also don't know if it helps with whatever is being absorbed from fiberglass tanks.

About $9 at wal-mart (in the marine section of the sporting goods dept.)

[Krunch]

As I understand it, aside from the issue of ethanol dissolving crud/dirt/polyester resin/whatever, the biggest problem with using E10 (10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) in marine applications is phase separation.

Ethanol has a great affinity for water (you can use it for dry-gas) and if you have a tank full of E10 sitting in a boat, eventually, with all the water in the environment, the ethanol component of the E10 will "soak up" water from the air and surroundings to the point that the ethanol will no longer be dissolved in the gasoline. What happens then is that the E10 and water separates into three layers:
1) a layer of rusty water on the bottom
2) another layer made up of a saturated solution of ethanol and water
3) another layer of straight gasoline.

This has several effects on fuel systems:
1. The rusty water fouls fuel filters.
2. The ethanol-water solution doesn't have enough energy to run the engine alone, and it can rust components of the fuel system (carb, injectors, etc).
3. Without MTBE or ethanol as an octane booster, the straight-gasoline component lacks sufficient octane for many engines, and so the engine will knock or not run right.

What you need is something to re-emulsify the mess back into one solution (or emulsion).

The best product I've heard of for taking care of this is called "E-Zorb" and it is made by MDR.

See:

http://www.mdramazon.com/productCatalog.asp?cat=Fuel+Additives&fName=E%2DZorb+for+water+in+E%2D10+gas

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

..a saturated solution of ethanol and water...

Ain't no such animal.
Water and ethanol are "miscible in all parts" - that is to say they will mix in all ratios.

I've never seen the water separating out from the whisky.

[Krunch]

Ain't no such animal.
Water and ethanol are "miscible in all parts" - that is to say they will mix in all ratios.

I've never seen the water separating out from the whisky.

Hmmm...good point – and true.

I guess having three components in solution (gas, alcohol and water) is what throws a monkey wrench into things.

Or maybe it's an issue of mixing polar solvents (ethanol, water) with a non-polar solvent (gasoline).

Whatever the case, they separate. I've seen it.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Adding water to an ethanol/gasoline mix is a complex event - initially the ethanol allows some water to be dispersed through the gasoline - which is why alcohols are used as gasoline driers - but eventually, once enough water is added, the water precipitates out and you get the (rusty) water layer with some of the alcohol - and a gasoline layer with some of the alcohol....

[Gary E]

Ethanol has less BTU's per gal than gasoline, so the total energy in a gal of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol haas to be less than a 100% gal of gasoline... no?

How does adding Ethanol to gasoline raise the octane level of the 90 10 mix? ?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Octane rating is nothing to do with energy content - its about resistance to "Pinking" or pre-ignition.

Methanol has a very high octane rating so you can run compression ratios in excess of 13:1 - and thus get more work pre gallon than a straight comparison of BTU/Gallon would suggest.

[Gary E]

I know Methanol has a very high energy content, that;s why dragsters use it straight...

But what about ETHANOL?... isnt it lower energy content?

[willmarsh3]

Actually, ethanol has higher energy content

Ethanol - 11,500 Btu/lb

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

Methanol - 8600 btu/lb

http://dnr.louisiana.gov/sec/execdiv/techasmt/ecep/auto/m/m.htm

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I know Methanol has a very high energy content, that;s why dragsters use it straight...

But what about ETHANOL?... isnt it lower energy content?

You know wrong. Energy density figures from Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density)

Gasoline =46.4
Ethanol = 30
Methanol = 19.7

The Top Fuel dragsters use a Methanol/NitroMethane brew which is seriously evil stuff..

[Gary E]

Nitro Meth.... right...

But the crappy 10% Eth in our gas now, requires more gallons to go the same distance...
( I have very good records of fuel purchases )
This has to make a gas engine boat really suck these days...

As for the guy with the boat, get a RACOR filter/water separator and keep on fishin...

[pila]

Thanks for all the replies folks. I'll pass it on.

[Thorne]

Looks like the plan should be:

Use a small gas tank, keep it full, and run it out fairly frequently (can you say "contradictory"?).
Install water-separating fuel filters, add water-removing conditioners, possibly carbon-conditioners/rust inhibitors.



http://www.evinrude-parts.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html

How to Prevent Damage From Ethanol in Your Outboard Motor:


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1. If possible, try to avoid using ethanol fuel blends in your outboard and marine engines.


If you are unable to obtain alcohol-free fuel in your area, you SHOULD TEST THE FUEL YOU BUY to assure the ethanol content is at or below 10 %.


2. Follow engine manufacturer gas recommendations. Check with your marine motor manufacturer and/or check your owners manual. (http://www.evinrude-parts.com/Manuals_OMC_BRP_Outboard.html)
.
3. Always use fresh, high-quality gasoline and replace it every 2-4 weeks.
Always avoid storing gas in tank for greater than 90 days. Remember that gas with ethanol has a shorter shelf life - use it up and replace it quickly.


Buy gas from busy gas stations - Fuel turnover is faster, gas will be fresher.


4. Check your gas tank for the presence of water and remove all water before adding an ethanol blend.


5. Avoid running on bottom of gas tank (where most water will sink).


6. Do not mix MTBE and ethanol-blended fuels.
Run out or remove your old (MTBE) fuel before putting the new ethanol fuel in your tank.


7. Make sure your motor is equipped with a water separating fuel filter.
Evinrude E-Tec's, and other newer engine models have them, other engines may or may not. The installation of a water separator in the fuel line will help with small amounts of water. Some marine engines are also equipped with water sensors.


8. Check fuel system for contaminants and clogging and replace your fuel filter often.
Fuel filters should be replaced at least every 50 -100 hours.


9. Evinrude - Johnson 2 + 4 fuel conditioner will stabilize fuel, inhibit corrosion and absorb moisture (water) without adding alcohol to the fuel. Add fuel conditioner at every gas fill-up.


10 . Evinrude (OMC BRP) also recommends carbon guard be added to the fuel tank each time you add gasoline, (Reduces possibility of rusting, piston ring sticking and carbon build-up, better overall engine performance, increases engine life), but it will not remove water.


11. Keep your engine well-tuned and lubricated.


12. If your engine has an older fiberglass gas tank, replace it. (Check with manufacturer if your tank was designed to tolerate alcohol fuels). Newer fiberglass tanks are double-lined and made of special material that holds up to ethanol.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/jun/13/no-headline---13ttethanolbox/

WHAT TO DO
• Avoid mixing regular fuel with E-10 fuel. Try to use fuel as completely as possible before filling tank with E-10 fuel.
• Frequently change fuel/water separating filters in fuel system. If none is installed, install one. Filters will most likely need to be changed more frequently than manufacturer recommendations.
• If older boat with older fuel tank, and E-10 fuel is unavoidable, have marina or service department arrange to clean fuel tank beforehand. It will cost extra, but will cost less than new injectors.
• If boat will not be used for some time, fill tank to about 95 percent capacity to leave for expansion but reduce the chance for condensation.
• Work closely with service department personnel to overcome challenges presented by ethanol.
• Never put E-85 in fuel tank of a boat.