Source for sailcloth in Toronto

[Christine DeMerchant]

Does anyone know where to find Dacron sailcloth in Toronto? I would like to make a couple of sails this winter. I would prefer tanbark but could live with red! I'm partial to colours.
The plan is to make a nice balanced lug a bit too large for regular sailing with a couple of reef points. The current Skerry sail is 58 sq feet and I would like to have something a bit bigger for gentler wind.
Then I would like to play with a couple of other sails, just for fun. These could be tarp sails.

Thanks
Christine

[Ian McColgin]

See if you can get the tanbark colour of Oceanus. It's a soft dacron, not treated on the outsides. There is some noticable bias stretch which is easy to design around. Lovely and soft to handle.

I've seen a professional loft have trouble stitching it - they got a pucker - which did not happen in the sails I've most unprofessionally made. But I laid the seams carefully, stretched a wrist-wriggle, with two sided tape and then stapled every foot so there was not much room for the seams to move while stitching.

G'luck

[JimConlin]

For a sail that small, try Sailrite (www.sailrite.com).

[outofthenorm]

Christine, there is no local or even Canadian source for real sailcloth that I could find, other than to buy from a friendly sailmaker's stock. It's all imported more or less "on demand" from the US and UK. And since a US buck now costs us about $1.30, it's pretty pricey. Tyvek (house wrap) is available through Home Depot or Rona, but I don't know if they routinely carry the stuff without logos. Lowe's might. Of course, you know where you get regular polytarp. As you know, I found a good local source for very high quality egyptian cotton that I can steer you to.

- Norm

[Christine DeMerchant]

Hi Norm
I had not considered cotton sails. I store my sail inside the boat on the mast so I'm worried that it would just rot. I have a waterproof cover but the inside still gets damp. Is the cotton treated?

I would like to get the address and check the cotton out.

Yes I know where to get tarp and tyvek. By the way tyvek is sometimes used by signmakers and it comes without any logos. Its not cheap though. Might as well use dacron.

Was most impressed by your launch and sailing of your Beth canoe ( Canook I think?) She is very nice looking. I missed a bit when you started a new post.

Our weather has pretty much changed now so I'm not going back out ... sigh! At least you had a few days to try your boat out.
Christine

[outofthenorm]

Thanks Christine. I'm afraid our season is done - but I got out in Canook 3 times, so that will have to do for now.

The cotton I'm using has been treated with a mildew-proofing. I left samples outside lying in the dirt during our rainy season last July and although it got dingy, it did not mildew. With just reasonable care, I would suppose that it will outlast a tarp sail by a good margin - and be a lot more pleasant to sew, to handle, to listen to, and to look at. The material to buy is sold as "pillow ticking" at Fabricland. It's a very tight weave, 600 thread count 100% long staple cotton of approximately 4 oz. weight. It's not ordinary sheeting - it's the stuff they make the inner cases of expensive down pillows out of - fine enough so the feathers don't poke through. Has a nice old-school colour - in fact it's more or less the colour that "Oceanus" is trying to match. I bought it in 90 in width and "bighted" it to 12" panels. Got it for $14 a yard. I'm not saying it will match dacron sail cloth for performance - but IMO it will more than match (and outlast) polytarp. Not to mention look a million times better. Besides, if it rots, it's completely bio-degradable.

- Norm

[gimmellsmom]

Christine you might try performance sails in Scarborough. Nice guys, but I think business is tough and they might be willing to sell just stock.

[oldsub86]

What do you have for a sewing machine?

Randy

[JC 72]

Hey Norm thanks for the info on the cotton cloth. I'm with you on the "hand" of cotton over poly tarp or Tyvek. I have experimented with "barking" cotton for a sail on "Merryrows", and I plan on sewing her a sprit. Christine you should get some cotton and try treating in with black tea concentrated and mixed with red wine, or even some RIT dye in "wine" and "brown". I havn't been able to find a recipe for barking sail cloth.

It will give you the look you want, be natural, and add some tanin to the cloth which is already treated as Norm mentioned. Hope this helps.

[kc8pql]

One thing to keep in mind about cotton sails is that when they get wet they get heavy. This may or may not matter to you.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Oceanus is too heavy to make a good Skerry sail. It will most likely have doggy performance on light air days. Any time you stick even the lightest weights of Oceanus on a boat less than 20-25 ft. or better you are most likely just asking for poor performance. Four-ounce Dacron is fine. If you want it a bit more on the heavy-duty side, you could go up to Dacron in the 5 oz.-5.5 oz. range, but there isn't any reason to go heavier than that (the lightest Oceanus is 7 oz.).

Without a doubt, the nicest Dacron Tanbark color and finish come from Richard Hayward in England (distributed through Performance Textiles in Annapolis, MD). If I couldn't get Hayward Tanbark I wouldn't even build Tanbark-colored sails. It's a much richer reddish-brown than the other available brands and its surface is a lot less plastic-looking. It isn't cheap though, so it would be a pretty serious investment. The Tanbarks from Challenge Sailcloth and Contender are excellent fabrics, somewhat cheaper and it's probably a lot easier to find a sailmaker with access to them who might sell you a few yards, but their color and finish aren't as nice as that of the Hayward cloth.

I'm all in favor of cotton for home-built sails if you can find good stuff. Working with it is much more like typical sewing for people who aren't used to dealing with slick, stiff Dacron and with careful work you can produce a really nice and elegant sail - even if it doesn't have as quite as much stability and performance as modern Dacron. Some of the 65/35 cotton/polyesters would also work (high quality windbreaker fabric). Do be a bit careful though about mildewcides. Many of the traditional ones are arsenic treatments and I'm not convinced that the stuff can't come off on you, so use your head.

In case it helps, here are a couple PDF files for putting a balanced lug rig on a Skerry. I've done it with both a 59 sq. ft. version and a 68 sq. ft. version. This file shows the dimensions for the 59 and near its end it gives you the size increase factor for blowing it up to 68 ft.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/!SKERRYL.PDF

We were able to leave the mast step where it was on the floor, but did move the partners aft a bit to rake the mast in order to preserve the rig/helm balance (it also looks and works better for this type of lugsail profile).

The second PDF shows the dimensions and diameters for the spars on the 68 sq. ft. version.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/SK1.PDF

[outofthenorm]

...when they get wet they get heavy. This may or may not matter to you.

You're right about that kc - in fact I think that that's the only real argument against it. The concern over decay is IMO a non-issue.

Todd - what would you think about some sort of waterproofing for cotton - something like Scotchguard?

Regarding the mildew treatment, the cloth is sold for pillows and factory treated, so I'm assuming it's ok.

Just for reference, these are the cotton sails in question. Far from perfect, but they seem to work just fine.
http://web.mac.com/outofthenorm/iWeb/Site%202/Beth%20%20Build%203_files/IMG_0211.jpg

- Norm

[outofthenorm]

JC - this is a link to some cloth that Todd put me on to a while ago. They don't ship to Canada, so I had to keep looking - but this has the same characteristics as far as I can tell. Cheap enough to order a few yards and play.

Possible cotton sailcloth (http://www.hancockfabrics.com/Natural-Bohemian-Downproof-Ticking-Fabric-Front-Page_stcVVproductId48184596VVcatId537258VVviewprod .htm)

There's also these guys Vintage Aero Fabrics (http://www.vintageaerofabrics.com/pages/about.html). I ordered samples of the cottons they sell. Very impressive cloth. Not as high a threadcount and not as air-tight as the ticking, but very high quality. No treatments of any kind. Great people besides.

Also, IIRC, there's a tanbark recipe in "Sailmaker's Apprentice" - although he recommends doing it downwind of anyone and anything you care about ('cuz it stinks). ;)

- Norm

[Todd Bradshaw]

They look good Norm. Well done! I would certainly treat them with something while they're new and clean to help keep them that way. The most common treatment used for cotton and cotton blends in the outdoor-gear/marine industry is a fluorocarbon treatment and the most commonly available is "303 Fabric Guard". It's similar to the finish that you would find on a high-end windbreaker or on the outside of a Gore-Tex raincoat (even Gore-Tex works a lot better if you have a substance saturating the yarns of the outer cloth layer of the laminate and preventing them from absorbing water). It helps repel water, helps reduce staining and is one of the best UV absorbers you can buy for fabric. UV absorbers on cloth work by converting light to heat, which can then float off into the atmosphere, rather than sun-rot your fabric. As they do this, the little blocker bits get used up, so it would be a good idea to renew the stuff every year or so for continued water, dirt and UV protection.

I think they make a couple economy sizes of pump or trigger spray jugs of Fabric Guard and it's pretty handy stuff to have a supply of for any type of nylon, Dacron, or cotton - raincoats, life jackets, boat covers (it's the best stuff for Sunbrella re-treatment) or for cotton sails. I haven't tried it on Dacron sails and don't know how well it soaks into or sticks to their resin-treated (melamine or epoxy) fibers, but it's the bee's knees on anything that's a bit fuzzy.

[Christine DeMerchant]

The material to buy is sold as "pillow ticking" at Fabricland. It's a very tight weave, 600 thread count 100% long staple cotton of approximately 4 oz. weight.

- Norm
Hi Norm
I have used the Ticking cotton. Surprisingly I was making pillows! Its hard to hand sew because it is so tightly woven. Good Thinking. I'm sure it will work well.

I will give it a try. It is a nice material. I might also be able to dye it. If memory serves it comes in plain and with stripes and once i saw it with little flowers.
Christine

[Christine DeMerchant]

Christine you might try performance sails in Scarborough. Nice guys, but I think business is tough and they might be willing to sell just stock.
I'll give them a try.
Thanks

[kc8pql]

...and once i saw it with little flowers.
Now that would make a statement! :D

[StevenBauer]

My daughter wants a tie-dyed sail for her Nutshell Pram, Amulet. We told her it couldn't be done with dacron. But with this ticking... Hmm.


Steven

[Todd Bradshaw]

Somebody here posted a photo of some tie-dyed sails a few months ago and they were really cool!

[Krunch]

defender.com

[outofthenorm]

A small but important point I just remembered - if you make a sail using cotton, sew it with a short straight stitch, NOT a zigzag. Unlike dacron or poly, the cotton will stretch, so the stitch doesn't have to - and should not.

Also, plan to do a lot of stitching in the corners - the more lines of stitch you use to join the corner reinforcements together the better. The corner should feel stiff when you're done.

How do I know these things, you ask? Well, let's just say I didn't know these things when I first sewed my sail - then I read Marino. Now I'm re-sewing all my corners.

- Norm

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yes and no.......The reason a zig-zag is used on modern sails is not to incorporate stretch into the stitch lines. It's because a zig-zag spaces the needle holes over a larger area. It creates less of a perforated straight line. This is important because of the tearing properties of Dacron and the very real possibilities of even heavy Dacron tearing right down a perforated line with surprisingly little force being applied. Cotton does not have this problem due to its more stretchy nature spreading strain near the stitch lines over more yarns and more surface area. Likewise, the corner patches can be much smaller on a cotton sail because the cloth has more give. Dacron patches are larger to spread the stress and stitch lines over more area and generate a smoother transition from the single-layer of cloth in the middle of the sail to the reinforced multi-layered corner areas.

Zig-zag stitching is less often seen on old cotton sails because it had not become common when many of them were built and as noted above, it was not required for tear strength. However, I have seen some really lovely cotton sails from the 1950's that were sewn with a zig-zag. The trick is to use a small zig-zag, like you might use on clothing, rather than a big honkin' 1/4"-3/8" wide stitch like we use on Dacron, which tends to be rather loose on such soft cloth.

Cotton corners will tolerate a lot of stitch lines and will benefit from them up to a point. Remember that stitching does involve making perforations and too many of them weaken the area. It's similar to riveting planks together. Too many rivets in too many holes eventually make the structure weaker, rather than stronger.

[outofthenorm]

Point Taken Todd. Let common sense prevail.

- Norm

[JC 72]

Thanks Norm. I remember Marino's barking story. I sort of wanted to stay away from somthing that nasty. Tanin is also found in red wine...Hmmm. Nice color too. John