Is it supposed to look like this?

[CJ]

Miranti ply, epoxy coated, primed with one coat of Interlux epoxy coat (very white) and rolled & tipped (foam brush) with one coat (so far) of dark blue Intelux Brightside thinned 10% on an 80 deg day. Probably should have put on another coat of primer mixed with paint first. I put paint on as heavy as I could without sags & runs, but I was surprised to still see so much primer showing through. I was also surprised to see the overlapping strips where I tried to 'tip' off into the previous wet edge.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/pbe2a0a06f5e45980af2fdafe67861885/f2bfee19.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid182/pfa4db2527b910feb735da01e816bf3ab/f2bfedfa.jpg

Is this normal? How can I avoid seeing these overlapping marks on subsequent coats? Should I have tipped off vertically?

On masking: Can I mask off the waterline ONCE for three coats or do I have to remove masking tape after each coat? I'm afraid to leave tape on for a week and pull off any of the first coat along with the tape, but masking for each coat is a pain too. Anyone have success masking just once for multiple coats?

Thanks,
CJ

[peb]

I think your tipping method is a little off. I normally tip both directions. Also, it looks like you did it as a one man job: roll a section, tip that, then do another section. It works best with one person rolling just fast enough to stay ahead of the tipper and the tipper does horisontal and then vertical.

Finally, leaving the tape on or off does not matter. By the time you wet-sand between each coat, you will need to retape anyway.

[pipefitter]

It looks like you are tipping too long before moving on to the next area.I have found that in the heat you only have about 1 minute max before moving on if that.I have to nearly run when I use it.I remedied alot of this by waiting till just before dusk.An hr of visibility left before it is too dark to see. The little dark stripes you see is where the paint you lapped had already started to set up allowing the color to double like in a semi 2nd coat.I wouldn't add primer to the paint unless it was needing some minor surface imperfection fairing or serious sanding which is what adding primer to the paint will do. From here on out you would be better to sand out your laps and surface and recoat till it is colored and then thoroughly sand the 2nd to the last coat with fine grit and then recoat with a final thin/wet coat to gloss it up and uniform everything.In a garage I would do it at night when it is cool. Outside,I dont have that option because of the dew in the air.Like what everyone else has said in the other posts it just takes practice.For first timers plan on buying half again the amount of paint you will actually need to do it normally.
It's proper for the first coat of color to be semi transparent tho,especially over white primer.Actually semi transparent is probably ideal because thinner is better.Next coat will cover it almost entirely with some faded bright spots maybe showing through.

[ 08-19-2005, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Be careful about painting close to dusk because a heavy dew on still wet paint is not a good thing.

While I certainly agree that you need to tip off quickly, I think a lot of your problems will go away when you put on the next coat because much less of the primer will show through so it will not be as obvious where the paint is a bit thicker than in other places. Given that you are applying blue paint over a white primer I am not surprised at how much white is showing through after the first coat.

Do remember that multiple thin coats are better then fewer thick coats...so I would not try to lay the paint on in especially thick coats to speed up the process...

[kc8pql]

I've never rolled and tipped Brightside but I've brushed a lot of it. I find dark colors don't cover very well and always take several coats to hide. Using grey primer under dark colors helps.

[sign carver]

From the looks of the amount of transparency in the blue, it looks to me like the paint is very thin in pigments and doesn't have much color, this hapens every so often and you may have a bad batch of paint. this hapens to me in the sign painting business, in fact it hapened just last week to a quart of burgandy, if it were me I would buy another quart and try that, lots of luck.

[Jay Greer]

Life doesn't need to be so hard in the paint dept. My own approach is and has been for many years to apply paint by using only a brush and no roller. The best brushes for enamel bar none are Hameltons, made of pure China bristle. The hairs have "flags" on the ends and hold paint very well. I swear by Z spar and Woolsey paints for ease of application. No two part epoxies!

Paint must be doctored with a cap or two of thinner and brusing extender in order to flow smoothly.
On hot days #11 thiner is called for. Less heat use #10. Mix in a few squirts of Penetrol for slide.to eliminate drag. I really like turps rather than thinners for pure oil based paints. Turps can be mixed with the penetrol prior to adding it to the paint. Paint usually has to be doctored several times during the course of the job.
Lay on paint fast to cover a sq. foot or so of surface with quick back and forth strokes. Finish by stroking in one direction only from the dry to the wet direction so that each stroke overlps the previous one so as not to leave shingles in the surface. Brush swing is done from the center of the chest away from the body. If you are right handed the srtoke begins from the left and moves to the right. With a good brush and the boat blocked up high enough to be at chest level a good painter can cut the water line without the hassle of using tape. When done right, a brush job can rival that of sprayed on paint!

[pipefitter]

I am using altered largo blue brightsides and it covered evenly and the only time it got to that transparency is when it was tipped too much carrying the pigment back on to the brush.Next time,dont stop your laps in the same places either. Alternate them in between the last.I rolled larger areas than that also.I go as far as I can comfortably tip in a straight line with one stroke.It is 90+ deg here on avg now and I dont get any good results much above 80.That seems to be the maximum temp for this paint.Agreed about the dew but it takes alot longer to get into a garage.If I dont feel it on the grass yet I am safe for a little while.

[Bob Cleek]

Well, a picture is worth a thousand words! Jay's comments are dead on the mark. Every time I say that this "rolling and tipping" is a load of crap, I hear howls, but there's the proof. You will have much greater success using a decent brush and less exotic paint. Quit trying to put as much paint as you can on the thing. If you have to, you will get a much better finish with multiple thin coats than trying to hang as much paint as possible just short of it sagging. If you are trying to cover any color, particularly a light over a dark, or vice versa, it is going to take a number of coats. Finish paint is actually somewhat transparent, actually. You have to build it up. Your grief is a good example of why you can't believe everything somebody tells you on the internet.

Also, you CAN leave the tape on between coats, but, depending on the tape you use, you should not leave it on for TOO long. Regular cheapo white masking tape, if left in the sun for a couple of days, will become baked on and impossible to remove. The more expensive blue tape will give you a couple of days more. Beware. Once it's baked on, you have to scrape the tape off!

[Lulworth]

Awww for gosh sakes...

The responses above are probably correct answers but to an entirely different question. The answer you want is to use the brightsides highbuild gray (it's really almost charcol) primer and recognize that blue brightsides polyurethane (all brightsides deep colors including red) transmit light so, don't provide a undercoat that is reflective (white). Use gray and multiple coats (two minimum) ... and don't feel bad, I learned this the hard way.

David

[Keith Wilson]

Yes, it's normal enough. Briteside goes on thin, and dark blue over white always looks crappy after the first coat. It'll be OK after another couple of coats. Darker primer would have been better, but too late now. ;)

[Graham Knight]

I recently painted two boats a very similar blue, I used Toplac but they're not that different, I find Toplac slightly easier to work with but there's not much in it.
You're right that a 50/50 coat of primer/topcoat would have helped, but using the correct colour primer would have helped more!
If you check the Interlux brochure (or any paint manufacturer's brochures) you'll see they recommend a grey-blue primer for dark blue topcoats, the white primer is showing up all the thin and thick patches, it also looks to me like you were too heavy handed with the tipping. You should drag the brush across the surface with virtually no pressure on it at all, just sufficient to pop the bubbles that you put in with the roller.
Your next mistake was to put on a coat of paint ... as heavy as I could without sags & runs You should have put it on as thin as you could, nice and even, then a second thin coat. I find two thin coats of dark colours, over a 50/50 coat of the correct colour primer and topcoat, is usually enough.

[Scott Rosen]

I'm with Jay and Cleek. That boat is small enough to paint by brush. Incidentally, you can get brushes as wide as 6". For your job, a 3" or 4" would suffice. Also, brushing uses less paint than rolling and tipping.

The only Interlux enamel that I like is the old-fashioned Premium Yacht Enamel. It's good and thick, covers well and levels beautifully. It's also about half the price of the stuff you're using.

Polyurethanes don't cover or hide as well as alkyds. Under the best of circumstances, you'd still need three coats of that paint.

[brad9798]

Darker primers for darker paints.

Dark over light gives results like you have.

I am a brush fan too ... even if it takes me longer, I will brush ... even on a much larger application.

It's easier for me to control, start or stop, etc.

Don't worry though, a couple of more coats, and it will be VERY, VERY nice!!!!

:cool:

[Billy Bones]

Lulworth is bang on the dot. Lots of good info, but to different questions. Dark colors require dark primers, for the reasons you've discovered, or else many more coats will be called for. From the even reflections on the pointy end, I'd say your technique is pretty good.

By the way, I've found that briteside sux. I'll never put it on my small boat again.

Good luck

[Todd Bradshaw]

The Cleekster: "Well, a picture is worth a thousand words! Jay's comments are dead on the mark. Every time I say that this "rolling and tipping" is a load of crap, I hear howls, but there's the proof.

Actually, it can work quite well and here's the real proof. Brightside, rolled and tipped over sanded gold gelcoat, no primer, done outside in the driveway. No runs, no drips, no sags.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid167/p84bd2c279da8a4f979eeb278e1a0258b/f43441fa.jpgKeep painting CJ. The first coat of any dark shade of Brightside usually looks like crap. With practice you'll do just fine.

[RodB]

Beautiful job Todd! I need to roll and tip some gloss paint and see if I can match your paint job.

With my difficulties rolling and tipping white Kirby's semi-gloss in my hot climate... it seems some problems can be common to all...and my white paint job probably appears better than it really is just because its white. I feel better now, I'm not the only one trying to master the R&T technique.

I have learned that it is so easy to roll on too much paint if your not careful. I can understand why Tracy O'brien recommended using a flat board as a roller pan to get very good control of precisely how much paint you load on the roller pad...just pour the minimal amount of paint on the board and load the roller. Also, I think the temps of 85 and higher makes things more critical and difficult. I am planning on repainting with Petit Easypoxy white semi-gloss in a few months and I'm hoping to get better results ( I just like semi-gloss over glossy...but that may change in the future).

Hey Cleekster...I was able to paint the rather large sides of my console by rolling and tipping with Kirby's light gray semi-gloss...and it came out great. There definitely is some truth that different colors behave differently during application. I used a good brush (Purdy Ox-o-thin) to paint the panels that were oriented from beam to beam...ie., the front, top and dash. I used radiused corners as break points between areas painted. I have learned that rolling and tipping can work if you just get the paint right in "consistency" giving long enough "pot life" (drying time). Also, the semi-gloss won't self level as well as gloss...but I want to try Petit Easypoxy next.

I believe you that an experienced person could paint my 18 foot skiff's topsides (18' X 24 inches high) with a brush only, and get a great job. I am confident I can do that in the future, but Tracy O'Brien did tell me he would not even attempt such a thing considering the results you can get rolling and tipping...and he tips horizontally, only rolling a 5-7 inch swath from gunnel to chine, then tipping horizontally...moving fast and by himself... always getting great results with gloss paint.

I just need to get a bit more experience and some lower temps. I am pretty sure with lower temps I will be able to do a very good job rolling and tipping but am also determined to be able to do almost as good with a brush. I think these are skills all us would be boatbuilders need to have.

Rb

[ 08-19-2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[CJ]

Originally, I was going to use a grey primer, but, according to Interlux, for an epoxy-coated surface like my skiff, I had to use this easy-poxy stuff (only comes in bright white) so I guess I shoulda mixed in some blue. Since this is my first project, and I've no prior experience to dispute them, maybe I've fallen prey to the big paint maker's 'recommendations'...

Anyway, I figure I've got two more coats to apply. I'll sand this one and I'd like to try another application method for 2nd coat.

Just a simple vote, in this application, would you:

A - roll & tip again, but tip off vertically or
B - brush only the 2nd coat, tipping off horizontally

Majority will rule and I'll post another pic after 2nd coat.

Thanks again,
CJ

[Graham Knight]

according to Interlux, for an epoxy-coated surface like my skiff, I had to use this easy-poxy stuff That's just to prime the epoxy surface, if you read further it should tell you to use Pre-kote next, or a coat of 50/50 Pre-kote/topcoat.
Pre-kote comes in several colours to suit the topcoat colour, a single coat of it would completely cover the white.

[ 08-19-2005, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Graham Knight ]

[RodB]

I'm only passing along tips from a professional builder and designer, Tracy Obrien who has designed and built many many boats. He gets great results every time rolling vertically a narrow swath about 4-6 inches from gunnel to chine... and quickly tipping horizontally with a 3" foam brush very lightly. The tip is not to roll on too much paint and move right along keeping a wet line...keeping the tipping brush fairly dry. He just thins some with mineral spirits with alkyd enamels. It should be noted he does this with glossy paint whether alkyd enamel or single part polyurethanes like Petit Easypoxy and Interlux Brightsides.

Hope this helps.

From your photos above, I can offer this...I noticed similar results with white paint on my first "not so good attempt" ...but when I worked on applying a very thin coat and tipping quickly, I got a very uniform coat on the hull with no overlapping marks showing like your photos show. Although I did get uniform results from stem to stern, I did still get very shallow brush marks horizontally that can be seen at about 2-3 feet. I have concluded the heat and my semi-gloss paint are the culprit for this.

RB

[ 08-19-2005, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[pcford]

Well, a picture is worth a thousand words! Jay's comments are dead on the mark. Every time I say that this "rolling and tipping" is a load of crap, I hear howls, but there's the proof. You will have much greater success using a decent brush and less exotic paint. ........Oh,oh. The Cleekster weighs in.

There is absolutely nothing in the picture that shows me that there is a major problem. The owner, evidently a newby, is surprised when the paint does not cover in one coat. Going from a "very white" primer to dark blue is going to take several coats. Certainly four, maybe more. When you sand the Brightsides more white primer will show through. This is called flashing.

Cleek refers to exotic paint, doesn't he know that Brightsides is one of the most common owner applied boat paints? I guess not.

In short, CJ, you are doing just fine. Keep on chugging. Painting in the middle of summer heat (and wind) is not easy. The critical elements are getting the paint film on thick enough but not too thick to run. Err on the side of too thin until you gain more confidence. Continue using roll and tip and brush out fore and aft. As I've said before here, painting is not easy. As you build your coats you will learn how to use the thinner to your advantage. You are going to have a good paint job.

Cleek opined: Your grief is a good example of why you can't believe everything somebody tells you on the internet. I will certainly agree to that. However, I believe that we may have a difference of opinion as to whom is the source of half-baked misinformation.

It really is a pity. Newcomers don't know the difference when someone is just mouthing off. But I do.

[Bob Cleek]

"Rolling and tipping?" Hell, Ray Charles could see that paint wasn't even close to being evenly applied. THAT'S the problem with rolling and tipping. Instead of having to control the flow of paint from one applicator (the brush), you have to control the flow from two (the roller and the brush.) What's the point of that, anyway?

[JimJ]

CJ

What thinners did you use? International have a new brushing thinners (International Brushing Thinners #6) for Brightsides that is a lot better than the thinners originally recomended.

As for adding Penetrol, it will help but will reduce the gloss of Brightsides.

[pipefitter]

I got such great results with the brightsides Largo blue over the epoxy primer I could almost leave it at one coat.The only time I got a white patch like that is when I tried to remove a bristle left from the brush and then tried to clean it up with the brush.A brush alone will work but so will the roller.I-lux said to use the roll and tip method.I had never done it that way before so I figured to try what they said to. Tracy O'Brien's method does work very well especially in the summer.No matter whether you brush or roll you are still going to have to haul ass.If you aren't an experienced brush painter you may need elbow cups to catch the paint rolling down your arm trying to load enough paint on the brush to go anywhere fast.I also think your boat is going to look fine by the time you get to the last coat.
Also,primer is flat and pourous when sanded and it will drink paint faster on the initial coat.It will paint smoother on the second coat now that the primer is sealed.
You don't need penetrol.That's an old faithful oil base thinner.Works best for house paint.Use what the manufacturer recommends.At 10% thinner to paint it goes a long way."Marine" alkyd enamel is gussied up house paint. Same ingredients.No magic other than maybe mildewcide or something weird like that.Ben Moore exterior enamel stays on a boat as long as the marine stuff does for less $.Just as glossy and has to be the same consistency no matter what.Wait until you get the next good coat.You will like the brightsides.

[ 08-19-2005, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[RodB]

Bob,

I am a beginner with roll and tip, but through my initial attempts I can clearly see the potential of the method. I am totally amazed at the uniformity of and thinness of the coats of paint I have applied. If the paint settled just a bit longer I would have a perfect job...but with the temp and thinning of the semi-gloss, I was unable to get completely rid of the horizontal marks (which are very very shallow and cannot be seen unless less than 3 feet away). I expect a great results with gloss paint and/or the Petit Easypoxy semigloss white.

RB

[RodB]

Yes, we all need a reality check now and then.

RB

[CJ]

Jim J:

For thinner, I used the Interlux recommended 333 thinner for brushing brightsides, thinned to 10%. I only mixed about 8oz. of paint at a time. It seemed to be a nice consistency, I actually should have maybe added a bit more thinner after about 20 minutes or so - maybe next time.

I tried the previously suggested method of using a piece of plywood to wet the roller, and probably won't go back to using pans again - very nice, even means of filling up the roller with little paint.

Weather is supposed to cool off a bit and be less humid on Monday - 2nd coat day.

Still taking votes:
A: Roll & tip again, tipping off vertically this time or,
B: Brush only the 2nd coat and tip off horizontally

Thanks again,
CJ

[Stephen Hutchins]

The lap marks are from going too slow. Looks like your painting one section at a time. Paint one whole side at once. Mask off bottom and gunnel, pour the paint on just below the waterline, (don't thin it)spread it out with a roller, tip very lightly with a wide foam brush.- If it takes you more than a couple minutes a side, your going too slow.

[Paul Scheuer]

I'd get her up a little higher. Maybe "artist's easel" height, if you're going for a perfect paint job. My knees hurt just looking at the picture (my back will probably hurt tomorrow).

[pipefitter]

I got another coat on this morning and it was just cool enough at 8 to get it done.This time I sanded all the cross hatch sand scratches out and grained the primer with the length of the boat.Whenever painting trim or any wood always go with the grain,right? Since these one part paints use aggressive sand grits between coats,I figured I would treat it like it was solid wood.Made all the difference in the world.Seems the horizontal grain was just enough to keep the paint from sagging.It was just on the verge.I used the sash tool to get under the laps first,then rolled on a tight coat and then tipped it all at once.It is looking like that boat in the above posts.This one part poly really glows color.One more coat will do it.Sofar,a little of everyone's advice has worked.The most accurate advice given by all besides technique was thin coats.A fat sable artist brush handled the radiuses nicely with one pass. FINALLY.

[Ian McColgin]

Just two thoughts -

Brush only towards the previously painted area. It's a small enough boat that you could do without rolling, though I find that rolling helps with an even coat even on a small boat. I roll with my left hand, tip with the right, and move right to left.

Tape anew each time. Sure the tape may come off after a bunch of coats, but the edge pulling off dry paint is not so crisp. I like to peel the tape back just after the surface has lost any inclination to run but before it skims too hard.

G'luck

[pcford]

For your election:

Roll, brush out horizontally unless you are having trouble with sags. And it appears you are not.

Agree with advice to get the boat at comfortable height, for example on sawhorses. Work right to left as noted above with 75 to 100 watt bulb on your right. Assuming you are right-handed, of course. If not the opposite applies.

As I said earlier, you are on the right track. I've done this stuff professionally for 30 years. Don't let the poseurs dissuade you.

[CJ]

A follow up note to all those who offered advice. After 4 coats, I finally got a nice, even color. One more coat later and she looks like I imagined. Rolled & tipped all coats horizontally using the Brightsides. Working faster seemed to make the difference. Also, I masked everything off (waterline & gunwale) for the 2nd coat and left the tape on until the 5th coat was tacky and still got nice, crisp lines. Thanks to all who responded with their thoughts & tips.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid184/pd85c8686f10bb0ac9f45ccc360d558fa/f296db16.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid184/pf92cc46a14cfb94c8eef3efbba82a7aa/f296da9b.jpg

Next project - the gunwales & inside...
CJ

[Bruce Hooke]

Nice job!! I'm glad to see that things worked out well for you...

[Paulyboy]

No offense to the thread, as I have done the rolling and tipping on sign panels before with good results , but the pressure on the handle of the brush as you tip should be no more than that required to hold onto the brush without dropping it. Any more than that and you're doing what we call "pushing the paint". You should be able to hold the brush ona flat surface between thumb and indes finger. On horizontal surface, maybe add one more finger.
On the other hand, I don't roll and tip anymore because the inexpensive spray equipment I have svaes me time, and materials, and in the long run, money.

[Garrett Lowell]

CJ, I think she looks great, and I have to applaud your color selection. Probably the best looking color and, from what I understand, shows off any flaws from underneath. Keep us posted on the next bit!

[CC]

What design boat is this?

[CJ]

CC:

The design is the 16 foot LYS (lumber yard skiff) from Old Wharf Dory in Welfleet, MA. Bought the plans off their web site. Very helpful over the phone, too, during the project. Nice, wide, presumably stable boat - also heavy with 5/8" sides & side decks and 3/4" bottom plus framing & trim. Oldwharf.com.

[David W Pratt]

I got sick of price/ease/results ratio for Brightsides and have recently switched to Benjamin Moore.
Very pleased.
Good luck.