Painting over epoxy

[Darren McClelland]

I am almost ready to paint the dingy and would like to use tremclad to paint the exterior and interior. a rust paint available at most hardware stores in a variety of colors. The information I have about epoxy is to use a polyurethane paint over the epoxy, Iam looking for something cheap and local as I will have to touch up the paint every season. Anyone ever use tremclad or a rust oil based paint for their boat and what was the results.

Thanks Darren

[paladin]

Tremclad was designed primarily for lawn furniture......it seems soft to me and fades/chalks easier than other paints....I've used it a couple of years (actually a bit over a year, twice) and went back to epoxy coating the lawn chairs/table on the deck...it lasts much better...

[Thorne]

Assuming it is a wooden boat with non-rusting fasteners, why would you want to use an anti-rust paint over the epoxy?

I use Rustoleum Marine oil paints on my fir over oak dory skiff, not due to the anti-rust element but to the overall quality of the paint.

If you want cheap and local, why not go for an acrylic latex porch paint?

[gary porter]

Darren, you don't want to paint over the epoxy directly. Use a primer designed for epoxy first. A good topcoat paint that is less expensive than most is Rustoleum Marine paint. You can buy that at most Lowes or Home Depot stores. System Three has one of the best primers in my opinion. Be sure to let whatever primer you use to cure before painting, not just drying to the touch but give it some days to actually cure, then paint. One test of curing is to lightly sand the primer, it should sand producing dry dust.
Good luck.
Gary

[Todd Bradshaw]

Primer is not required over epoxy and in many cases adds nothing to the equation in terms of durability, finish, adhesion etc. You can use it if you have a lot of small defects to fix, but you would probably be better off to fix them in the epoxy phase.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Darren, you don't want to paint over the epoxy directly. Use a primer designed for epoxy first. A good topcoat paint that is less expensive than most is Rustoleum Marine paint. You can buy that at most Lowes or Home Depot stores. System Three has one of the best primers in my opinion. Be sure to let whatever primer you use to cure before painting, not just drying to the touch but give it some days to actually cure, then paint. One test of curing is to lightly sand the primer, it should sand producing dry dust.
Good luck.
Gary

I've heard this before and I don't understand it. What's the purpose of priming over epoxy?
Ordinarily, primers are intended to aid bonding paint to porous surfaces like wood. Epoxy is anything but porous and it gets a grip on wood better than any known paint. On my boats the moisture barrier is the epoxy. The paint is just a UV barrier for the epoxy and maybe for looks.

[gary porter]

Its the bonding agent between the epoxy and the paint.
You could check with the epoxy companies to see what they say.
Well Todd says you don't need it so there you have it.
Have fun.

[Tar Devil]

I've found primer helps level the finish over epoxy (for those of us who refuse to spend week after week sanding! :D ).

[Thorne]

Rustoleum makes a high-build marine primer that I've used on fir planks under their paint, seemed to work well but I don't have much to compare it to. Covered up a multitude of sins...

;0 )

[Wild Wassa]

Some thoughts on primers.

"Primer" means first. When epoxy is on, the primer is already on. As a primer for all the paint bases epoxy is first class. All paint types adhere to epoxy well ... when the epoxy surface is well keyed and contamination free, that is.

When paint fails it is usually the primer that has failed. For this very reason, dont overdo the primer. When the topcoat fails ... do you ever notice the primer still intact under the paint?

On metals I'll use the appropriate etch primers ... applied as thinly as possible.

On polyester I do not use primers (ever) because there is no base as good as polyester for stability and ability to take paint, when polyester is correctly keyed and contamination free.

If I'm painting with International Perfection then I'll use Perfection primer. I don't know if it is necessary, but I always do. Everyone I know who uses Perfection, including myself, cuts and polishes Perfection. It is only the manufacturer who doesn't.

The high quality paints are incorporating the primer in the paint nowadays.

I paint BCP's Aquacote, a marine 2 pack polyurethane straight onto well dressed timber ... I dont use a primer.

Primers don't just aid bonding, they can also be anti fungal. Their anti fungal properties are most important for acrylic/latex paint applications.

Quality exterior acrylics just go onto anything. I don't use them but the top quality acrylics nowadays are extraordinary paints.

Warren.

ps, I was just goint to post how many boats/yachts I've stripped and painted this year to differing degrees but I've actually lost track of the number. It is more than 12 yachts and maybe even as many as 15 with a couple of complete restorations. This is why I haven't been on the Forum. This is also the first year in the last 8 years that I haven't rebuilt and painted a wooden racing dinghy, shock horror. At the moment I'm restoring the a yacht that I have a small share in. I started work on the boat last week. I'm flowcoating her surfaces. It will take me 6-7 weeks to do a full restoration (to new) and refit her. It will take about 10 days to resurface her 6.7m outer hull, which I've spent 7 days so far. All of the dark timbers in the cabin are getting the bullet ... blond timbers are taking their place. I'm also currently restoring with her Skipper, a Flying Fifteen. She, 'Rag Dolly', will take a couple of weeks to bring up to race trim.

[switters]

Some thoughts on primers.

"Primer" means first. When epoxy is on, the primer is already on. As a primer for all the paint bases epoxy is first class. All paint types adhere to epoxy well ... when the epoxy surface is well keyed and contamination free, that is.

When paint fails it is usually the primer that has failed. For this very reason, dont overdo the primer. When the topcoat fails ... do you ever notice the primer still intact under the paint?

On metals I'll use the appropriate etch primers ... applied as thinly as possible.

On polyester I do not use primers (ever) because there is no base as good as polyester for stability and ability to take paint, when polyester is correctly keyed and contamination free.

If I'm painting with International Perfection then I'll use Perfection primer. I don't know if it is necessary, but I always do. Everyone I know who uses Perfection, including myself, cuts and polishes Perfection. It is only the manufacturer who doesn't.

The high quality paints are incorporating the primer in the paint nowadays.

I paint BCP's Aquacote, a marine 2 pack polyurethane straight onto well dressed timber ... I dont use a primer.

Primers don't just aid bonding, they can also be anti fungal. Their anti fungal properties are most important for acrylic/latex paint applications.

Quality exterior acrylics just go onto anything. I don't use them but the top quality acrylics nowadays are extraordinary paints.

Warren.

ps, I was just goint to post how many boats/yachts I've stripped and painted this year to differing degrees but I've actually lost track of the number. It is more than 12 yachts and maybe even as many as 15 with a couple of complete restorations. This is why I haven't been on the Forum. This is also the first year in the last 8 years that I haven't rebuilt and painted a wooden racing dinghy, shock horror. At the moment I'm restoring the a yacht that I have a small share in. I started work on the boat last week. I'm flowcoating her surfaces. It will take me 6-7 weeks to do a full restoration (to new) and refit her. It will take about 10 days to resurface her 6.7m outer hull, which I've spent 7 days so far. All of the dark timbers in the cabin are getting the bullet ... blond timbers are taking their place. I'm also currently restoring with her Skipper, a Flying Fifteen. She, 'Rag Dolly', will take a couple of weeks to bring up to race trim.

busy man, please post some pics when you get the chance.

[Wild Wassa]

There is very little timber in what I'm doing lately, that is also why I've not been on the Forum.

The only timber I see nowadays is possibly on the gunnels and rubrails of trailer yachts. The grabrails are always timber. Timber in cabins or storm boards is mostly ply and I doubt it is marine grade in cabins, that is if the boat has a cabin rather than just a giant sail locker. Holes caused by collisions might expose some timbers or when I cut a hole for an inspection hatch I might see some wood ... but that is about it. I'm guessing in another few years there'll be even less timber to restore.

Everthing I do nowadays looks like this, basically ... light weight composites.


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/CA4.png



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/PadmeamdHumumgusII.png


Although, I did a restoration on a shocking Farr 6000 that has some wood on her. The restoration was excellent to do, possibly my best work so far. I'll post some images this evening EST Oz.

There aren't primers apart from a bit of epoxy and etch primers in my painting nowadays ... it is nearly all Flowcoat.


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/DarkHullPrussianBluetintinclear.jpg



http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/Startofthecut.jpg


Warren.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gary, I got my information about not needing primers a decade ago straight from Gougeon Brothers book and later from their tech people over the phone. I haven't used one since and have never had a problem (likewise, never a problem getting varnish to stick just fine to clear-finished, epoxy-covered canoes and boats). You do need to prepare it properly (the same way you would to get primer to stick to it) and you do need to fix the flaws during the epoxy phase, rather than with the painting stages, but adhesion and durability don't seem to be a problem. If you like using primer and think it gives you a better paint job, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. However, telling someone that they should not apply paint directly to epoxy or that it won't work is simply not true.

[MiddleAgesMan]

The Wild one said, "Everyone I know who uses Perfection, including myself, cuts and polishes Perfection. It is only the manufacturer who doesn't."

What is meant by "cuts and polishes?" (Actually, I think I know what poliish means it's the "cuts" that has me stumped.

[Wild Wassa]

Middle Ages Man, after the paint has hard cured, cutting the surface of the paint to give a higher quality surface than a basic paint job finish by using a cutting compound. I like Farecla G3, Advanced Liquid Cutting Compound ... for use on polyurethane.

Switters, shots of one of the Farr 6000s that I restored, I've restored several Farrs. The boat was in a very ordinary condition when she arrived. The cabin was given equal treatment and brought back to new. It was good to dump the tacky 80's Farr interior colour scheme. The stackpack was from Tasker Sails. I made the lazy jacks from the guidelines on the Harken site. They are adjustable to suit the stackpack and not distort the sail shape.


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/Needingacidwash.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/Startingthestrip.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/Tillerstripping.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/Untitled-Duplicated-03.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/TOSSY.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/WildWassa/Onthemooring.jpg


Warren.

[Darren McClelland]

Ok so no primer, wash the epoxy , rinse, let dry, then paint, I could not find the rustoleum marine paint, the home depot only had the CIL in a marine,and it specified above waterline, the rustoleum they had was a regular latex all purpose paint indoor / outdoor, I am almost tempted to try it? what do you think? or am I best to use the marine everywhere, or back to the oil based tremclad.

Thanks DM

[pipefitter]

Your best bet, if you are going to use a traditional general duty paint in gloss or semi-gloss is to go to the most reputable home paint distributor in your area, The one that all of the reputable paint companies deal with. The staff at those outlets are usually painters. They will be able to tell you the best exterior finishes and will have instant tech support of the products. There will also be veterans of the industry standing at the counters having paint mixed etc. You will be able to get any quality base paint tinted to your desires and be able to replicate the color by merely giving the number on the top of the can that they sell you. This is great for touch ups down the road too in the event that your leftovers go to cottage cheese on the shelf. They most likely will try to sell you primers because they are in the business of selling products unless you tell them you have an epoxy primer on it already and leave it at that. If you are considering rustoleum or a home center paint, I would say this is where you need to go.

The rest is up to you and if you aren't a painter already, you won't really have any preference that really stands out over ease of use and or the cleanup involved, nor the favored tools that really matter either.

Yes, they also mix paints at the home centers, I just don't like their choices in a coverage sense. I don't really like Behr or Glidden paints. I go to an independent outlet here in Tampa called Tanner paints because they carry Benjamin Moore products. Specifically their oil based "Satin Impervo" line of products, although, I have heard their water based version of the product is outstanding as well. The main consideration is that the pro centers will have paints designed for your climate. Here in Florida for instance, humidity and mildew are of concern which ties in with finishes subject to marine environments. Therefore, I can have some mildewcide added to the blend.

[Darren McClelland]

Thanks

I did use improvo on a project years ago and remember that it flowed well and I used a foam brush after appying it with a roller.

Darren

[pipefitter]

All the old work skiff builders here used BM exterior oil for their boats, which were sheathed in glass on the exterior and just bare ply on the interiors and these boats lived on the water until they had to clean the bottoms which had antifouling on them.

For superb finishes that borderline showroom, or OEM type production finishes, then the specialty marine or aircraft or auto finishes start coming into play. With that though, prep and fairing experience on an expert level are needed to make them work, or at least the ability to follow and understand expert advice, along with a arsenal of specialty tools. Just the abrasives schedule alone will well exceed what most are willing to expend on the whole application kit for a one off.