Flattening Alkyd Enamels

[BrianM]

I see a product offering from Interlux as an additive to flatten the gloss out of Alkyd Enamels.

Does anyone know what this stuff is? I need to flatten a quart of topside paint, and the flattener is sold in Quarts at $35+ shipping.

It didn't occur to me 'til today, and I'll need to apply the paint on Friday, so that precludes having the material shipped to me. Is this stuff common with most housepainters?

Thanks

[Canoeyawl]

Any good paint store (that mixes colors) will have a flattening agent in stock. Ask them and they may just give you a little bag of it. It is just fine silica. Similar to pumice powder or rottenstone, which may indeed work for your application. Automotive paints also have flattening agents added to match factory colors. (new cars are often not a high gloss finish because too many imperfections would show up)

[BrianM]

That's a good lead, thanks. The housepainters supply house I called had no clue, but it sounds like an Automotive Paint Supply house might just be the ticket.

[David G]

It's most commonly called Flatting Paste

[donald branscom]

Do what artists do.
Just mix in talcum powder.

[SMARTINSEN]

It is just fine silica.


That is all that micro-balloons and colloidal silica are. Just speculating, but maybe you could mix some in to a small test batch and see if it works.

[pipefitter]

If you are just going for satin, you could get the same paint in flat and add it to it. The stuff from interlux is a thick liquid and it takes a bit of it to flatten to semi-gloss.

[Canoeyawl]

It's pretty fine stuff, sized in microns.
Again rottenstone may work but any added flatting agent will weaken the paint and reduce the surface protection. I prefer that time does it for me, it doesn't take very long - lol.

[BrianM]

..........but any added flatting agent will weaken the paint and reduce the surface protection..........

I think you hit the nail on the head on why my topsides look so terrible. I had Kirby Mix me up two gallons of "Bottle Green" several years ago. I asked him to flatten it so as not to show the seams and irregularities so obviously. My boat has a "workboat" heritage, and her topsides don't lend themselves to a smooth surface finish.

I've never been happy with the paint getting very chalky and brittle in just one season. George Jr. Kirby made the comment that he couldn't get the paint to accept anymore flattening agent, suggesting that it was saturated. If the "flatting" agent tends to weaken the paint as you say, it might why it doesn't seem to have any staying power. I understand of course that the dark color absorbs more heat from sunlight and contributes to the paint breaking down, but it might be in my interest to just use a gloss paint, then scuff it up with scotchbrite as the furniture builders do.

I've since used up the Kirby and am using a semi-gloss.

Thanks

[mobjack68]

I see a product offering from Interlux as an additive to flatten the gloss out of Alkyd Enamels.

Does anyone know what this stuff is? I need to flatten a quart of topside paint, and the flattener is sold in Quarts at $35+ shipping.

It didn't occur to me 'til today, and I'll need to apply the paint on Friday, so that precludes having the material shipped to me. Is this stuff common with most housepainters?

Thanks

Automotive paint store, they sell small containers, like 4 oz, depending on how much you need they may just give you some ...

[Bob Cleek]

Yep, flattening agents, whether they be talcum, silica or something similar should be available from any decent paint store... BUT:

Marine alkyd paints are specially formulated to provide a film coating with particular properties that resist chipping, peeling and all that bad stuff. Flattening agents don't just sit on the surface of the coating, but are distributed all throughout the coating. (You should make sure it's well mixed evenly and not allowed to settle while you are working with it or some of your job will be really flat and other parts glossy... same is true of "satin" varnishes.) Another way to think of it is that with the flattening agent, your paint is full of very fine dust. What this creates is a coating matrix.... paint film shot full of talcum or silica. This is simply not as strong or long-lasting a coating as the original formulation, which is why "flattened" paint never lasts anything near as long as "unflattened" when exposed to the elements. Flattened paint is more frequently applied in protected applications, interiors and like that, where one wants to avoid the "hardness" and glare of gloss. It's fine there because it isn't exposed to anything like the abuse topsides get.

As was mentioned above, the really high gloss of new paint will dull within a few weeks or so. This is a result of weathering on the surface of the film only. Nature will do your scotchbriting for you, or you can do it yourself, if you must. I think she'll look just fine with the gloss when it goes "natural." The "workboat" look that you are shooting for is really more of a "distressed" look that workboats acquire after sitting awhile. I've never seen anybody paint a real workboat with "flattened" paint so it would look like a workboat!

If I just HAD to have a flatter finish on a topside job, I do think I'd opt for rubbing it down with fine scotchbrite, or prehaps it might be even easier to take a buffer to it with rottenstone or pumice and water after it was good and hard. Either method would give you a flat finish without changing the composition of the marine-grade coating you paid all that extra money for. I'd think the buffer would produce a more even flattening than the scotchbrite and be a lot faster. You can just hose off the pumice or rottenstone residue when you are done. No muss, no fuss.

[pipefitter]

Green is one of the least durable colors for UV exposure as are some of the darker blues and reds IIRC.
Some ways to combat some of the degradation due to flattening is to put a gloss undercoat. Flat paint holds contaminants worse than glossier films. Apparent when you try to wash it. Is why it's not good to have flat paint in homes where children can't keep from touching the walls because you can't wash it like you can semi-gloss.

[Bob Cleek]

Pipefitter's suggestion of only going flat on the topmost coat sounds good. Besides, if you laid down the first couple of topcoats and they didn't look so bad, you could just blow off the flattened coat completely and finish her up gloss. BTW, if you are using Kriby's gloss, it will be a bit flatter than Interlux or Zspar anyway. Just is. Dunno why.

[BrianM]

..........My boat has a "workboat" heritage, and her topsides don't lend themselves to a smooth surface finish.
(i.e. I can't get a stable, fair, "Yacht" surface if I wanted to!)


.......... I've never seen anybody paint a real workboat with "flattened" paint so it would look like a workboat!


I'm not going for the "Disney" warm and fuzzy "simulated workboat" finish.. I'm just faced with a boat that won't hold a "Yacht" finish, and am trying to minimize how crappy she looks.

I'm done with Bottle Green George Kirby flattened paint. It clearly is a high maintenance finish and might as well be varnish for the durability (or lack thereof).

[BrianM]

I decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater and abandon dark greens entirely, flat, satin, or gloss. Every boat in the harbor is white so that won't do.

I selected a custom hue in some gloss white alkyd enamel and went from this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3283/3043570013_242dc46e55.jpg?v=0

To this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3250/3043570525_7a42f65cb7.jpg?v=0

Thanks to everyone for the paint education none-the-less.

[Canoeyawl]

Nice...

[Bob Cleek]

I was just down at the yard, Brian, and I left scratching my head wondering where the "fire engine lime green" (just kidding) came from, since you'd be talking about keeping her dark green. I gotta say, nobody's ever going to have a boat the same color! LOL It looks quite good, as a matter of fact. I expect it will dull somewhat when it ages and will be very nice in a "workboatish" way. It's a "relaxing" color, nor harsh, nor boring. Just about right. I don't think you will have any problems with it fading like the dark greens do, either.

[Wayne Jeffers]

I like it!

Wayne

[BrianM]

"fire engine lime green"

I like that name better than "Citron" 400B-4 per the "Behr" Paint Code.

I was trying to explain to a few of the yard Sidewalk Superintendants that "...no, this boat is not being used in a
J. Crew nor Crate and Barrel ad.... I just like the color...":p

Fire Engine Green! That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Tanks Bob

[BrianM]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3140/3043570291_e0bd9e8741.jpg?v=0

Glamour shots. I've since painted the boot a brilliant gloss white. The black you see is actually coal tar epoxy which I've found to be really excellent primer for bottom paint, especially for the cast iron ballast. I had two little dime size bleed through spots after 3 years, and mind you, I was not allowed to bead blast to clean metal, just hammers and wire brush.

The bottom will be red vinyl when all is said and done.

[redbopeep]

Looks pretty, Brian. Hopefully you're pleased with the good results of your work. :)

[pipefitter]

I think it is a big improvement. It is a tidy color which makes the difference sometimes.

[BrianM]

Looks pretty, Brian. Hopefully you're pleased with the good results of your work. :)

I think it is a big improvement. It is a tidy color which makes the difference sometimes.

I like it!

Wayne

Thanks for the compliments. I'm still hesitant to "embrace" the color. I had in my head an image from some past Wooden Boat of what probably was a Sea Green boat, but what I thought looked really sharp, was the contrast between the bright spars and the color of the hull. I had this vague image in my mind as I perused the color samples at the local "YardBirds" (a Home Depot Acquisition). It's a color that is growing on me. My main motivation was to get a light color on her to reduce the ridiculous maintainence burden ... fingers cr;)ssed.

[home painter]

I see a product offering from Interlux as an additive to flatten the gloss out of Alkyd Enamels.

Does anyone know what this stuff is? I need to flatten a quart of topside paint, and the flattener is sold in Quarts at $35+ shipping.

It didn't occur to me 'til today, and I'll need to apply the paint on Friday, so that precludes having the material shipped to me. Is this stuff common with most housepainters?

Thanks

the flattener works great- but one problem- it costs as much as preflattened paint by the gallon !

just go to your local hardware store, you can buy satin or flat black for around $35 a gallon

in this respect, the flattener is not cost effective

[redbopeep]

It's nice to see folks use colors that aren't just white, black, or schooner green :)