No room at the buoy, no quarter given, so ...

[rbgarr]

crunch!!

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/media/08/1126/

[JimConlin]

Presents a good argument for the invention of brakes.

[rbgarr]

The new three boat length rule won't help if racers just barge on in, will it?!

[Ian McColgin]

Ain't a race if there's no splinters.

Actually, this sort of thing happens in fleets that are both overly competitive and not strongly committeed. It's a fleet culture thing.

[boylesboats]

who is who? :confused: all those boats looked the same... color and sail cloth, everything..:eek:

[boylesboats]

Presents a good argument for the invention of brakes.

already have... strong arms and a anchor....:D

[bamamick]

You should see that happen in a 75 boat fleet in big air and seas. It can get ugly. Very ugly.

That being said, that was probably a pretty hefty bill that Mr. Barging at the Mark had to pay. I've know a lot of guys who would sell a boat for less than that. People do not like owning boats that had holes punched in them, for some reason.

He didn't look in the least repentent, did he?

Mickey Lake

[rbgarr]

You're right Mick. That scenario was very similar to the Sumurun-Amorita sinking incident: barging at the mark. Both collisions were entirely avoidable if the skippers had communicated clearly and known and followed the rules. Sailing gets like ice hockey sometime and I know newbies who have never wanted to race again after things like that even sailing around here (very low key stuff!), which is too bad for the sport in general. There was this situation a few years ago which ended up with a sailor being banned from sanctioned competition for two years: http://forum.sailingscuttlebutt.com/Discussion_C6/Dock_Talk_F5/Gross_Misconduct_at_Laser_PCCs_P2901

[ahp]

I did not see exactly what happened, but If two boats approach a mark the one that will be closest to the mark can call for buoy room, if both are on the same tack. If on opposite tacks, starboard over port applies. There is also a rule about too close manuvers. That is why there are protest commitees.

[bamamick]

One of the very biggest reasons for protest commitees is that our insurance companies look on them as the legal arbiter of incidents like this one. And this guy (the hitee) even has the video to help him make his case.

The worst thing about this whole deal is that I am about 99% sure that I could have made that turn without hitting anyone.

Mickey Lake

[Yeadon]

As a non racer ... walk me through what should have happened in this instance.

Racing is an absolute mystery to me.

[bamamick]

Yeadon, the FIRST thing that you need to know is that every competitor is obliged to avoid contact while out on the race course, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. After you realize that nothing else really matters in this case.

Mickey Lake

[Yeadon]

That sounds like sound logic.

So, I watched the tape again ... when the second boat to reach the buoy jibed, it looks like it got stuck in the shadow of the first boat around the mark. That second boat just sort of stalled there. Then it got smacked.

... seems like the third boat in should have been able to swing out behind the stern of the second boat ... sheeting in and going upwind, even if for a few seconds, before rounding the mark.

[Henning 4148]

Ah, regarding what shouldn't have happened, it's easy: You are not supposed to T-bone another boat.

Some rail rubbing may be unavoidable at a can from time to time, but T-boning is a big no-no. Too dangerous.

Basically, although not having read the racing rules for some time, you have to create an overlap before the can (2 boat lenght before) to have a right to be given room at the can on the inside. Not having created the overlap, you have to do a 360 on the inside or wait or go outside - if there isn't enough room between the other boat you didn't overlap with and the can.

Mind you, in this case, there was plenty of room between the boat that was struck and the can- it might have been worth a try to squeeze in - certainly, T-boning was not an option to be considered.

[bamamick]

The boat that got hit got crapped on, to use a more technical racing term, by the inside boat and lost his momentum. He should have driven off and built some speed before trying to head up. He is, in essence, a wee bit in irons. The hard charger has rights if you want to be technical (he is on starboard whether inside of the circle or outside) but no one has rights to charge right into another sailor. He MUST avoid the contact.

I have read a little more about this. The guy sailing the hit-er never saw the other guy. There IS a lot going on at a rounding. He withdrew from the race as soon as he cleared the area. I assume that there won't be any arguments about repairing the other boat.

I have been in many, many situations at roundings (in extreme light air) where I have lost steerage. In a Finn or any other kind of dinghy the guy who got hit would have been gone, but in a displacement hull like my Dragon or that E22 you have to have the hand of a master to get out of those situations. I fouled out of a race in Cleveland last year because I would NOT do what that guy did and stick my nose where I knew it wouldn't fit. Wound up over riding the mark and getting into the J/22 fleet. It happens and it'a part of the game. As someone above said, there are no brakes on these things.

Mickey Lake

[Yeadon]

Thanks for the Racing 101 lesson. Interesting stuff.

[rbgarr]

If you can hear the audio that goes with the video, the second place skipper clearly calls out ("No room!") to all other the boats that he will not be giving space for anyone to round the mark inside of him (because no boat has an inside overlap within two boat lengths of the mark). All others must keep clear unless the hailing boat makes a its rounding too wide and leaves room for another to get through clearly. Anyone doing so is still at risk of fouling the original boat, but it can be attempted as long as you don't foul (make the hailing boat alter course) or especially, collide.

The rules for 2009-2012 have changed to three boat lengths from the mark. Boats are faster now and crews tend to carry their spinnakers closer and closer to the mark, resulting in situations like this where the skipper of the fouling boat didn't see the second place boat rounding up to the mark. The new rule will also have implications for gated courses but I'm not clear about what will be different there.;)

[Tim B]

"As a non racer ... walk me through what should have happened in this instance.

Racing is an absolute mystery to me."

Starting at the begining of the clip.
1. Boat #1 (the one that gets hit) is leading the downward leg.
2. Boat #2 (the first one around the mark) establishes overlap on boat #1 prior to 2 boat lengths before the mark. Boat #3 (the hitter) does not establish overlap.
3. As Boat #1 gets to the mark it passes the layline (the imaginary line of closest tack to the mark) in order to give boat #2 the bouy room it has rights to (because it had established overlap). Boat #1's strategy at this point is to go around the turn starting wide and finishing the turn between boat 2 and the mark.
4. Unfortunately boat 1 times it badly and loses alot of momentum at the start of the turn and hit "dead air" from fleet coming down wind right after it tacks.
5. Boat 3 intends to make it's turn keeping the mark in the center of the turn. They want to avoid having a following boat exit the turn to windward of them but they sailed in a little too close to the mark. They are compensating for this by passing the layline slightly so they can make a small radius turn. Boat 3 has not seen boat 1. Boat 3 is clearly at fault since they never established overlap prior to boat 1 getting within 2 lengths of the mark.

It is easy to get too focus on what is going on inside the boat and forget who is around you, especially when you are starting to stumble. I would surprised if boat 3 deliberately hit boat 1, especially since they did not have right of way. In the fleet I raced in we would sometimes hold our course with the intent to hit an offending boat. We had a few sea laywer types who would foul a right of way boat and then claim that they were really free and clear. The only way to prove your case was to hold your course and nick something that would not cause damage, like the mainsheet or boom.

-tim

[bamamick]

I intentionally hit someone once: about 30 years ago in a Star regatta. And I nailed that sucker. I wouldn't do it today. Unfortunately, the rule of thumb is that if you want to prove your point to the commitee then you've got to show them some paint or forget about it.

The Dragon class is having a serious problem with collisions at our major events in Europe. Professional sailors don't get paid unless they deliver results, so taking chances and going for the slight edge that might mean the difference between 5th and 20th means that the boat repair folks stay mighty busy, and the newly rich Euros, especially the guys from eastern Europe who have made many millions in the last decade, don't seem to mind playing bumper boats. An Aussie friend who attended a major European event recently told me that he was shocked at the level of carnage.

Sailboat racing IS a contact sport. Always has been since I have been in it, but it does seem to be more prevelent.

Mickey Lake

[Dan McCosh]

I intentionally hit someone once: about 30 years ago in a Star regatta. And I nailed that sucker. I wouldn't do it today. Unfortunately, the rule of thumb is that if you want to prove your point to the commitee then you've got to show them some paint or forget about it.

The Dragon class is having a serious problem with collisions at our major events in Europe. Professional sailors don't get paid unless they deliver results, so taking chances and going for the slight edge that might mean the difference between 5th and 20th means that the boat repair folks stay mighty busy, and the newly rich Euros, especially the guys from eastern Europe who have made many millions in the last decade, don't seem to mind playing bumper boats. An Aussie friend who attended a major European event recently told me that he was shocked at the level of carnage.

Sailboat racing IS a contact sport. Always has been since I have been in it, but it does seem to be more prevelent.

Mickey Lake

One reason why I become more reluctant to race these days.

Apparently it was not always so. Recently, a guy was chastized for fouling a Flying Scot with a 40ft. watzit while screaming. "I don't have to give way to a rent-a-boat"in a local race.


I once heard a story from a guy who was sailing a Flying Scot in a mixed-class race in the 1950s, when a skipper sailing a NY32 port-tacked and fouled him. The big boat dropped out of the long-distance race, along with an apology, which was he expected penalty in those days. The small boat skipper remembered the sportsmanship for the rest of his life.