Wanted: Racing Wood Sailboat

[Velocity]

Looking for a wood sailboat from 22 feet (Knarr Kutter) up to a Dragon or 30 feet, any condition, prefer one in better condition with trailer.

Looking for a daysailor first, racing boat for PHRF second in light to medium air conditions. Or should I build or have one built?

Advice, input and verbal abuse is welcome.

Velocity

[Wiley Baggins]

1. You need to build one/have one built.

2. It should be Luke's CONTENT/TEAL (http://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/17254/)

3. Someone with an arguably more sensible approach will be along shortly.

[bamamick]

Why do all these new guys refuse to tell us where they live?

Where do you live? It matters.

Mickey Lake

[Velocity]

Why do all these new guys refuse to tell us where they live?

Where do you live? It matters.

Mickey Lake

2 hours North of Chicago.

Michigan, Muskegon Lake on Lake Michigan. We have medium to heavy air in spring/fall, but summer is light air.

Velocity

[Wiley Baggins]

Where do you live? It matters.

Mickey Lake

Ahhh, Mickey, that only matters if Velocity fails to heed my sage advice. :)

[jerry bark]

I know of a lightning in need of restoration near you, if you can live with 19'?

if not, then a dragon would be cool especially if I can crew for you sometime.

jerry

[rbgarr]

Here's a range of what's available of each on Yachtworld.com, and not too far from you. The trailer(ing) would be another thing:

http://tinyurl.com/6myj74

or this http://tinyurl.com/55vkjb

or Matt Murphy's elegant Sound Interclub (he's the Woodenboat Magazine editor) http://tinyurl.com/68nywl

It's a good time to buy. Let us know how this turns out.

[Ymepointer]

I have heard the Thunderbird is an excellent racer


http://www.clarkcraft.com/cgi-local/shop.pl?type=item&categ=019&item=943134490&cart_id=20000119185704207235018007

[BBSebens]

wow. wish i was in your shoes.

I would have to think that your budget has a big impact on the possibilities. if money is no option, have one built! no better way. If time is no object, build it yourself! no more enjoyable way. Otherwise, I find that the shopping, research and seeking out that perfect boat is half the fun. Im hoping your not in a big hurry and can take the time to find the perfect thing.

happy hunting!

[Don Z.]

If you're near Chicago, then a Luders 16 makes perfect sense.

What other people are racing matters as much as general conditions... right Mickey?

[bamamick]

Yeah, the L16 class is still very active at the CYC and that would be a good place to start (assuming they haven't all been sold to Maine like the boats from the Gulf Coast were). The L16's have a decent web page with contact info. You could also try the Chicago YC or the Northeast Harbor fleet in Maine. Those are the main hubs right now.

If you like traditional boats and are serious about buying I would recommend taking a look at the www.usdragons.org web site and checking our 'marketplace' section. There are a couple of woodies there, but if you don't see anything you like you can contact me direct through this place and I can get in touch with a couple of folks who have boats not yet listed. There are also boats in the UK at really good prices right now, and we can get you in touch with a shipping company. The last time I checked you could do shipping to the east coast for less than $5K.

There are active Dragon fleets in Cleveland and in Toronto, with a couple spread about in Michigan and Wisconsin. The Great Lakes is a nice place for Dragons.

More general advice would be to find a boat in need of some love and go that route. I originally paid $3K for my Dragon with aluminum rig and a serviceable trailer. Right now with sails I have about $40K in her and if I put her on the market I could probably ask $15K, but the trick is to keep her forever and I plan to do that. Thing about it is, my boat was a wreck and had to be rebuilt. There are nice boats out there that just need refinishing in the $20K range. Try and find one of those. Of course you will need to do periodic work, but so what? Any boat needs that and you can pay as you go.

If the world were my oyster and I were in the position you are in and just starting out I would look for a 22 sqaure metre. At one time there were many of those on the Great Lakes and there probably still are in hidden marinas or in barns. If I were going to race PHRF with her that's what I'd look for. My rule with racing PHRF is that you buy the fastest boat that your budget will allow. The faster the boat the better you come off the line and then you can make your own decisions rather than wait for others to clear their air. If I wanted a traditional wooden racing boat that's what I would look for. A little past your 30' window, but I like 'em. Other than that, I'd get a Dragon. A Dragon would roll a L16!

jmo

Mickey Lake
AIDA National Secretary :)

[Rich VanValkenburg]

I want to add that if you happen to find a 22m² or a 30m² that you either post the news here or on squareskerryyachts.net. There's a semi-active search going on for these old boats.

[adam96]

My favorite wooden racer is called a Streaker 33. Herreshoff pedigree, 33ft loa, 30ft lwl, 6.5ft draft, rates 107 PHRF (spin). Great daysailor and very quick - basically handles like a 33ft Laser, but without the hiking.... Adam


http://herreshoffdesigns.com/BRI_0842sm.JPG

http://herreshoffdesigns.com/BRI_0882small.JPG

[bamamick]

Oy, Velocity. I just read your post on SA and wanted to let you know that the CWB in Seattle has two of those Kutter class boats for sale right now. They both need work, but you could get them for a nice price and bring them to the Great Lakes. Nice looking little boats.

Mickey Lake

[frank pedersen]

The 210 Class Association web site lists Hull #50, with trailer, for $2000 in Milwaukee, Wisc. PHRF rating is 171. I know Dragons have their following, but the New England PHRF group rates them at 216.

[bamamick]

I like the 210 as well. I almost bought one several years ago and I often wonder if I should have? Fellow named Jim Robinson was the class secretary and he was very enthusiastic that the class would do well on Mobile Bay. I'd have loved a chance to sail one.

Mickey Lake

[rbgarr]

I was an intern for Halsey Herreshoff when he was contemplating building Streaker. He showed me the offsets and tasked me with drawing her hull (no appendages) as an exercise. It was a thrill to find her shape as the points developed and faired on the drafting table. The hull was from one of his grandfather's (NGH) half models and was so sweet and slick-looking. We discussed keel shapes and rudder types and locations (attached, spade, skeg, transom mount?). A fun back-and-forth especially with someone so knowledgeable about Herreshoff and the current twelve meter designs, among other things. Halsey designed his own appendages and had the hull built by Eric Goetz in his first boatshop on Burnside St. some years later. I saw her under construction and was struck by how different three dimensions looked compared to what I'd anticipated from the two dimensional drawing. Very instructive.

AFAIK, she is very fast and a delight to sail. Thanks for the pics and memory jog.

[frank pedersen]

I take it Eric Goetz built her in wood, which is not what he is famous for. It surprises me that little (that I am aware of) has been written about Streaker. Is there a design commentary and perhaps lines drawing out there somewhere? How about doing that for WoodenBoat, one of you who know her well?

[adam96]

It is a good story - maybe we will do a write up.....

The hull shape actually originates from a Sonder class design by Halsey's father. Halsey added some freeboard (yes, added!) and updated the appendages, a few times. Eric Geotz built the hull, still in his early days, with double diagonal planking.

Lately, Streaker had been moth-balled for about 8 yrs. Last spring we tweaked a few things on the deck and in the way of keel structure, awlgripped the hull and deck and bolted the keel back on. Had a blast this summer reaking havoc in the Bristol Wednesday night races and day sailing a lot.

Below is the latest appendage configuration, I think its the third, installed circa 1994. The picture is from when we were installing the keel.

The original intention was to build two for match racing, but there were severe adhesion issues with the second hull and it never came off the mold (its still on the mold, with trees growing through it).

The idea of starting a class has been tossed around a couple times, and I think it might happen in the next few years, depending on a few current projects....

http://herreshoffdesigns.com/P1010422.JPG

[rbgarr]

Yes, I vaguely recalled it was a Sonder hull design, but wasn't sure enough to say so. Thanks for the correction about ASDH. The bow profile is clearly one of his. BTW, could she be singlehanded in light to moderate wind?

I remember thinking that Streaker would have been a nicer class than the 11 meter which came out later... and didn't do too well as a class. Perhaps the J-Boats had already filled that sport-boat niche.
http://i37.tinypic.com/1f8z6w.gif
http://www.11mod.nl/yacht.php

[Daniel Noyes]

wow nice looking hull!
I recently designed the Ipswich Bay 18' based on similar hulls of the Sonder era, Sewanhaka cup boats and Mass Bay waterline class types.
I have also drawn and built a model of a 26' Spirit of Tradition racer that I have been talking with a gentleman about building... we'll see, it is similar in form to streaker but carried fuller further forward, a little more scow like but still with a sharp bow.
The great thing about light, fast, boats is that they are incredibly inexpensive to build and own!
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/178/380057796_56c1b876e6_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/380057796/in/set-72157608651570153/)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2167/2045098987_52ae58a3b4_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/2045098987/in/set-72157608651570153/)http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2300/2045154749_f6a1b81179_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/2045154749/in/set-72157608651570153/)http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3079/2665423381_e7e6a05c21_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/2665423381/in/set-72157608651570153/)

[adam96]

Yes, I single handed Streaker several times last summer. When not racing, we have a 90% jib and club we can rig for easy handling.

[Noah]

Wow, the Streaker is awesome! Very cool boat - looks like a great daysailer/club racer. How does she do in PHRF?

[johnw]

It is a good story - maybe we will do a write up.....

The hull shape actually originates from a Sonder class design by Halsey's father. Halsey added some freeboard (yes, added!) and updated the appendages, a few times. Eric Geotz built the hull, still in his early days, with double diagonal planking.

Lately, Streaker had been moth-balled for about 8 yrs. Last spring we tweaked a few things on the deck and in the way of keel structure, awlgripped the hull and deck and bolted the keel back on. Had a blast this summer reaking havoc in the Bristol Wednesday night races and day sailing a lot.

Below is the latest appendage configuration, I think its the third, installed circa 1994. The picture is from when we were installing the keel.

The original intention was to build two for match racing, but there were severe adhesion issues with the second hull and it never came off the mold (its still on the mold, with trees growing through it).

The idea of starting a class has been tossed around a couple times, and I think it might happen in the next few years, depending on a few current projects....

http://herreshoffdesigns.com/P1010422.JPG

I am in awe.

[rbgarr]

FWIW (thread drift warning) page three of this Herreshoff Museum Chronicle has an article by Ben Fuller on Bibelot, an NGH Sonder boat. http://tinyurl.com/5j5snn

[frank pedersen]

I vaguely recall a WoodenBoat article about the Sonder design. It was several years ago and the was some controversy that provoked a sharp exchange in letters to the editor - maybe an issue of who deserved credit for something. Can anyone clarify this? One other clue: It involved one of the Maine boatbuilding schools.

[rbgarr]

The Apprenticeshop built the one in question. WBs #131-2

[adam96]

Wow, the Streaker is awesome! Very cool boat - looks like a great daysailer/club racer. How does she do in PHRF?


Pretty well, our PHRF rating ended up at 107 after adding the masthead asymmetrical spinnaker this summer. We rated the slowest in Class A for our local Wednesday night race and managed to beat some modern boats, boat for boat and on rating (including Eric Geotz). We ended up third overall, fighting a delaminating jib the second half of the summer.

[bamamick]

The Sonder Klasse boats are so freakin' cool, but it would cost a king's ransom to build one these days.

I very much enjoyed the article in Wooden Boat on the two Sonderen built in the States. One of my favorite pieces.

Mickey Lake

[johnw]

http://woodenboat.org/content/boat2c/image/Eleanora.jpg


You know, it strikes me that in terms of value for money, a Blanchard Senior Knockabout is a pretty good racer in light to medium wind. Most are in Puget Sound, although one has been transplanted to Long Island Sound. You'd have to trailer it to your area, and probably would have to fix some cracked ribs, but they are beautiful boats and fast in those conditions. There are a lot of them around, and usually you can find one for not too much money.

They have a fin keel with about 1200 lb. and a rig with the same dimensions as a Star (so you can get some nice used sails for them) but they carry a genoa and spinnaker.




http://woodenboat.org/boats/Boat_Detail.aspx?processID=214

http://www.ladyben.com/SearchResultsFull.asp?VesselID=1255

[johnw]

Or, you could go this route.

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/0/5/4/4/1054450_1_thumb.jpg?1161068400000

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Scarbrough-Gaff-rigged-Sandbagger-Sloop-Replica-1054450/MA/United-States

[johnw]

Try going to http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/advancedSearch.jsp and putting in your specifications. Look around and see what's available. You'll com up with stuff like this:

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/9/2/9/7/1929706_1_thumb.jpg?1213469791000

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1937/George-Lawley-Dark-Harbor-20-1929706/Islesboro/ME/United-States

and this:

file:///C:/Users/johnw/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.jpghttp://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/9/5/2/3/1952383_1.jpg?1217353486000

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1934/Northern-Michigan-Nm-1952383/Harbor-Springs/MI/United-States

[Wiley Baggins]

I will moot a more serious and perhaps more sensible option than CONTENT/TEAL above (but equally logistically challenging). She is certainly a very pretty, and classically formed yacht – the IOD (International One Design).

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1966/Bjarne-Aas-IOD-1902573/Scotland/United-Kingdom

[patrick.blanchard]

You know, it strikes me that in terms of value for money, a Blanchard Senior Knockabout is a pretty good racer in light to medium wind. Most are in Puget Sound, although one has been transplanted to Long Island Sound. You'd have to trailer it to your area, and probably would have to fix some cracked ribs, but they are beautiful boats and fast in those conditions. There are a lot of them around, and usually you can find one for not too much money.

... and they come with a great pedigree too ;).

[johnw]

... and they come with a great pedigree too ;).

Are you any relation to Norm Blanchard? Even if you aren't, you could put a copy of "Knee-Deep in Shavings" on your shelf to make people think so...

[johnw]

He's a sweet old guy. Too frail to make it down to the dock for this year's Norm Blanchard Regatta at the Center for Wooden Boats.

(brag alert)

My copy of his book is signed.

[rbgarr]

Slick!
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/Egger-5.5-er-1899271/Germany/Germany

[ishmael]

If you really want to race, and aren't interested in some really fast boat, you have to find out what the active classes are in your area.

[johnw]

Slick!
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1982/Egger-5.5-er-1899271/Germany/Germany

Sure, lets send him to Germany of Scotland.

Dude, is there a Snipe fleet around there? I know, I know, dinghys are a different world...

[bamamick]

Boy, this thread vanished without any sort of resolution. What did Velocity think of our suggestions? I saw on another site that he once had a Kutter class boat so I guess he likes the full keel, displacement type design. What did you come up with, Velocity?

Mickey Lake

[dreyer]

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1938/Luders---Conneticut-6-Meter-1834893/Ladysmith/Canada

[tprice]

Agree that you should buy what is being raced locally - but, as was suggested earlier, the Int 210 is a great boat. Look at the 210 web site (www.210class.com (http://www.210class.com)) for several for sale. Easily trailerable and very sweet boats to sail. Wood ones are equally as fast as glass ones and are quite easy to maintain. We have a small isolated fleet in Maryland and have picked up 7 of the older boats "past their prime" for quite reasonable prices. http://painting pix 047.jpg

[ChicagoLuders]

I couldn't agree more that you will want to enter a fleet that is already active in your area. The support of an active fleet has tremendous benefits and racing One Design is far more satisfying than handicapped racing. I am a member of the Chicago Luders 16 Fleet and we welcome new members, especially wooden boat enthusiasts. We've had a great racing program ever since 1945 and we still race every Saturday from May to September. I can connect you with boat owners that may be interested in selling or partnering. Come to Chicago and go for a sail on a Luders 16, you'll get hooked!