Pete Culler's Otter

[davidrparker]

Does anyone have a picture of Otter?

Thanks, David

[Thorne]

I **think** that Canoeyawl built a Culler Otter, so perhaps he'll chime in...or was it Bill Stoye?

Here's some similar boats. Otter sure looks a lot like Gardner's rendition of the Herreshoff Rowboat, only a teensy bit narrower...

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/batto/index.htm

http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/OT16_study.htm?prod=OT16

[Canoeyawl]

Not me...

[Thorne]

Jake -

Sorry! Must have been Bill.


David -

Bill is active in the Sac-SF TSCA. I may see him at the Wet Turkey Row this Saturday, and if I do I'll ask him if he built one and if he's got any photos.

[Steve Paskey]

There are two good pictures in "Pete Culler's Boats." If I had a scanner, I'd post them.

The hull is really quite different from Gardner's version of the Herreshoff rowboat. Otter is a single chine design with flat topsides, more like a skinny dory.

[Thorne]

Trust me, the Herreshoff Rowboat looks a lot like a skinny dory when inverted -- I've been looking at mine for a year now. But a skinny round-sided dory, not a skinny hard-chined dory -- so you are right there.

http://www.luckhardt.com/md-bottom1.jpg

My dory skiff inverted -
http://www.luckhardt.com/primer1.jpg

[holzbt]

I've got some pic's somewhere. I'll find them next week when I have a day off.

[Ben Fuller]

Culler's Otter is of course in the Culler books but also in the 3rd edition of Watercraft, page 57-58. She is not at all related to any dory like craft such as the Green machine being a narrow cross planked bateau. You all may recall that she has wooden removable outriggers. She is a smooth water boat. I suspect that she's be damp in some places where I have rowed modified LF Herreshoff types like the Green Machine.

[Clinton B Chase]

Nice pictures in the latest Culler book

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Pete-Culler-On-Wooden-Boats/productinfo/300%2D722/

It looks fast, in flat water. I wouldn't plan on using her in open water, but for flat water I bet she is fast. And she'd sure be a joy to build.

Cheers,
Clint

[davebrown]

i have searched for an otter high and low. it is a rather specialized hull, but for what it was intended for, i think it was a masterpiece. definitely not an all-rounder. a single strake plywood version is on, i believe, duckworks, in their design section, but nobody seems interested in building culler's version. someone built one in alaska with marine ply (which is my goal) but there is a dead link now--can't access it.

i have bought the plywood for one, but now i am side-tracked on a whisp. i would like to do a sliding-seat version. if you decide to build it, you will be ahead of me, and i want to know as many details as you have time for.

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1154.jpg

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1152.jpg

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1153.jpg

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1155.jpg

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1156.jpg

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1157.jpg

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1158.jpg

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1163.jpg

[holzbt]

I can get some pic's of an unfinished OTTER if you are interested and can wait a few weeks.

[Thorne]

I talked to Bill Stoye today at the Wet Turkey Row about his Otter that he used to row all over the Bay Area. He said "No Way!" to setting it up for doubles rowing, and described it as being very tender and not having sufficient displacement/beam for two rowers.

So again, if you want a doubles boat, find a design for that specific use -- don't try to modify boats that have been cleverly designed to be efficient and fast with half the weight and power...

Hope to see you on the water at some of the TSCA events in your area next season,

[Bill Perkins]

Holzbt ; thanks for the great pictures ; this is the best look I've ever had of the boat . Allot to look at in the interior . Think that was the original paint job ? I assume it is .

If any boat might hold the spirit of it's creator , I would think Otter would . Could you smell any pipe smoke ?

In post #16 ; is the squarish fixture shown a leeboard mount? It would be great to see your construction Photos .

[Ben Fuller]

Original paint job.... the paint that was on her when we took her into the collection. The square block is for the leeboard.

Some were inside her is a wooden horn made from a single piece with a plug filled with tallow.

[davebrown]

holbtz: thank you for those great photos.

[davebrown]

holbtz: you mentioned in your post that you might know of another otter, and could get some pictures...that was in november. any luck?

[Clinton B Chase]

Bump...might have one of these on my build schedule....more info is always welcomed.

I'd be interested in what length oar Capt. Pete used when rowing his Otter...I think short, but when I see the flare in one of the shots above it makes me think he could have used as long as 9'.

[Ben Fuller]

Beam on Otter is 3 feet; you might get to 3 and half with the flared oarlocks. The oars are 7 to 7 1/2 . Photo shows them running from mast thwart to after thwart, with handle ahead of mast thwart, and that scales to 7.

[Ian McColgin]

George Kelley told me how he and Capt Pete were out showing off their boats' rough weather ability down at Mystic a while back, out in the Sound with a good south westerly. As I recall it was Otter and Mr. Kelley's near cousin to Otter.

The boat gains stability once you're down in it due to the flared sides but initial stability is, well let us say that your torso muscles will gain some tone. But lively as she is, she can be handled in pretty rough weather if you're skilled and alert. Not restfully seaworthy the way a higher sided dory can be, but safe enough while your energy holds out.

[Clinton B Chase]

George Kelley told me how he and Capt Pete were out showing off their boats' rough weather ability down at Mystic a while back, out in the Sound with a good south westerly. As I recall it was Otter and Mr. Kelley's near cousin to Otter.

The boat gains stability once you're down in it due to the flared sides but initial stability is, well let us say that your torso muscles will gain some tone. But lively as she is, she can be handled in pretty rough weather if you're skilled and alert. Not restfully seaworthy the way a higher sided dory can be, but safe enough while your energy holds out.

Sounds like a perfect compliment to Drake and what fun this would be to build. I would think this boat could be cartoppable by one person if built very lightly and with a system, such as a wheel on the back that allowed the person to get the boats bottom up on the rack and off.

[Bill Perkins]

Clinton; "Pete Culler's Boats" goes into more detail on Otter than I found in the new book . The straight sided temporary molds are padded out as the planking proceeds so no plank bevels are necessary and "more flare and better shape " are produced . You can see we're looking at the full thickness of the plank edges on the interior .The author (John Burke) recommends splineing the cross planked bottom of the boat if dry sailed .

The joggling of the frames ,which are installed later when the boat is flipped upright , is simplified by the fact that all the joggles are the same depth and the planks are parallel with each other in cross section .

For those who want to row two and carry three (total)the book shows a stretched Otter on the next page . This is 20 feet by 4 ft., draft 3 in. She'd never been built at the time of writing .Maybe she would better accommodate a drop in sliding seat rig for a lone oarsman?

Mystic has the plans .This book is the catalog . "Clipper Pulling Bateau For Dr. James Eldredge" Page 50 is the 20 footer.

"Clipper Pulling Bateau Otter" Page 48 is the ID for Otter of course , 17ft. 4 in. by 3 ft.by 10 in. depth.

[G.Sherman]

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/Gaz02026/yawning.jpg

These are really hard to build... even harder to maintain.

[Steve Lansdowne]

While I trust Ben Fuller, the Otter diagram on page 69 of Pete Culler on Wooden Boats lists 8' oars, though the text is very small and hard to read, but it sure looks like 8' to me.

[Ben Fuller]

Unfortunately I had to send my review copy of Pete Culler on Wooden Boats back.... I need to buy a copy I guess. I was working from the photo in Burke's book, where the plan has no legend, and from the photo there I have a hard time getting to more than 7'6". Same thing with the photo in Watercraft. The list in Skiffs and Schooners does seem to say 8'. So it may have been one of those things where 8 foot was written down and things went better with 7'6".

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/Otter2Cullerskiff005.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/Otter2Cullerskiff006.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/Otter2Cullerskiff002.jpg

This is my stationary dust collector in the shop. (It's been collecting dust for about 10 years.:D) Maybe I'll have to finish it so Clint can try it out.

[Bill Perkins]

Can anyone fill me in on exactly how the leeboard was mounted ? I can't make out the published detail. It looks on holzbt's photo like the supporting fixture is capped with a piece of heavy sheet bronze. Does this simply turn down at a right angle (just outside the photo !) to support the leeboard and the outer wood bearing block shown on the cross section?
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_1157.jpg

I saw from a photo on page 235 of the new book that the whole works can be lifted off the gunwale , leaving behind what looks like a structural tab for lashing the thing in place .This doesn't seem to quite match the inboard lashing I see in the photo above , which looks like it might go down through a hole in the thwart. No varnished top of sheerstrake in that other photo either ; maybe a different boat?

Is there a hole for the pivot bolt of the leeboard in the sheerstrake ,or is the rig small enough that the metal angle can handle the load of the leeboard on the off tack ?

[holzbt]

I think there is a bolt with a big homemade wingnut that goes through the leeboard and both blocks.

[Clinton B Chase]

Clinton; "Pete Culler's Boats" goes into more detail on Otter than I found in the new book . The straight sided temporary molds are padded out as the planking proceeds so no plank bevels are necessary and "more flare and better shape " are produced . You can see we're looking at the full thickness of the plank edges on the interior .The author (John Burke) recommends splineing the cross planked bottom of the boat if dry sailed .

The joggling of the frames ,which are installed later when the boat is flipped upright , is simplified by the fact that all the joggles are the same depth and the planks are parallel with each other in cross section .

For those who want to row two and carry three (total)the book shows a stretched Otter on the next page . This is 20 feet by 4 ft., draft 3 in. She'd never been built at the time of writing .Maybe she would better accommodate a drop in sliding seat rig for a lone oarsman?

Mystic has the plans .This book is the catalog . "Clipper Pulling Bateau For Dr. James Eldredge" Page 50 is the 20 footer.

"Clipper Pulling Bateau Otter" Page 48 is the ID for Otter of course , 17ft. 4 in. by 3 ft.by 10 in. depth.

Good morsels of info, thank you.

This boat is a real contender. Depending on business, I want to find a rowboat to show off at the shows, probably the WBS 2011. Ease of construction coupled with high performance is a winning combo.

The 20'-er sounds very interesting for a sliding seat boat that most folks can get into. Part of me cringes at the thought of putting an ugly drop in rig into a beautiful hull like Otter.

I need to get some Mystic plans...maybe best done in person down there in June.

Cheers,
Clint

[Clinton B Chase]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/Otter2Cullerskiff002.jpg

This is my stationary dust collector in the shop. (It's been collecting dust for about 10 years.:D) Maybe I'll have to finish it so Clint can try it out.

That sounds like a great plan, thanks for thinking of me!!! Lets shoot for a launch at next year's JGSCW in Mystic.

If I were to do Otter, I'd use Harry's approach and double plank the bottom in cedar with each board offset and glued together with epoxy. The splines would be another great option. Is it dry between bottom boards? I suppose us modern wood guys could put in a synthetic caulk as well.

Is the bottom 7/8"? Sides 1/2"?

--Clint

QUESTION: How do I subscribe to this thread so updates get emailed to me?

[paladin]

G. Sherman....where did you get the neat picture of "Evinrude".........I know he disappears sometimes, but always seems to make it home for dinner.....

[Bill Perkins]

I built a Culler launch that had topsides built like this , and the hefty Culler chine logs . In body plan I struck a line canted 10 degrees from the horizontal . I picked up this line’s angle of intersection with the most flared section of the boat and ripped this constant angle on the edge of my chine logs before installation . They look fine and don’t trap water or dirt. To me it’s the square edged dirt catcher of the original that looks a bit odd : but to each his own .

On my boat side decks protect and hide the plank laps to some extent ,so I left them square edged. They do collect unidentifiable dreck over a period of time. It would have been better to have given them some bevel. If I was building one of these open boats I would definitely rip a bevel on the top edge of the planking as well as the chine log.

The 10 deg. angle is not totally arbitrary. It comes from my house work where water tables and such have that as a minimum pitch to clear water off of painted surfaces . I recommend it for the chine logs , where it looks perfectly logical (more logical to my eye) . I glue laminated the chines in place with two layers, which produced a slightly thicker sided dimension .On Otter I think I would raise the height of the chine ,so the shorter interior side of the bevel was the original spec'd height .


For the planking I can see that one might use less bevel for aesthetic reasons . I would at least rip a constant bevel on the top edge of the planks that brought them horizontal at the most highly flared section . At least I’d mock this up with some scrap and look at it . Maybe this would destroy the boat's feeling of elemental simplicity?

[holzbt]

That sounds like a great plan, thanks for thinking of me!!! Lets shoot for a launch at next year's JGSCW in Mystic.

If I were to do Otter, I'd use Harry's approach and double plank the bottom in cedar with each board offset and glued together with epoxy. The splines would be another great option. Is it dry between bottom boards? I suppose us modern wood guys could put in a synthetic caulk as well.

Is the bottom 7/8"? Sides 1/2"?

--Clint




The bottom boards are 3/8" and set dry, just the splines. The sheer strake is 3/8", the other two planks are 1/4", clench nailed. I built it to Culler's spec's. If I did another one I'd probably use plywood.

[Clinton B Chase]

I think I'd stick with the cedar bottom boards, two layers glued with System Three's G-Flex which has an amazing amount of ability to move with the wood. The topsides would be 5 or 6 mm plywood, unless someone wanted the timber strakes.

I also rip bevels on the top of the chine logs so they don't trap gunk. I believe I have read that Culler has written that one can use dory lap on his boats to reduce the apparent thickness of planking, another approach. I'd do the thing that kept things looking most as designed, most traditional. But I would consider using plywood topsides.

[Ben Fuller]

A two layer bottom should not be any thicker than original so 3/16" would be needed. Another approach to the chine log is what I did on my GLS, take a gouge and make a gutter at the low side of each frame bay.

If you use ply for planking topsides you might want to reduce the thickness by a sixteenth to allow for the weight of the glue. Cedar is pretty light.

[Clinton B Chase]

The sheer strake is 3/8", the other two planks are 1/4", clench nailed. I built it to Culler's spec's. If I did another one I'd probably use plywood.

Wait, I just saw this again...are you sure it is 3/8 sheer strake, usually if they step down in thickness that gbd is the thicker one.

Yup to what Ben said. 4-5mm ply ought to be doable. Then again, some really nice cedar at EMC would be awfully nice to plank this boat.

Ben, just how fast is the Otter. Does is tend to hit top speed earlier or is it more like a boat that feels like it goes faster and faster as you row harder?

[Ben Fuller]

I never rowed Otter with instrumentation. Not as fast as a skinny slider, possibly as fast as a guideboat of that same length and considerably easier to build.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Part of me cringes at the thought of putting an ugly drop in rig into a beautiful hull like Otter. Cheers,
Clint

Iain Oughtred's sliding seat skiff, the Snipefish, includes the drawing for an all wood drop in sliding seat. Could just see you moulding some nice carbon outriggers. If you look closely the outriggers bolt to the ladder frame with angled blocks, and the ladder frame simply slots down onto the only two frames in the boat.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2701/4028975408_e0123e534b_o.jpg

Brian

[Bill Perkins]

That’s really interesting Brian. I thought there were some wooden rigs out there .I bet that’s one of the best.

Speaking of Otter, I saw some wear on the varnished stem in the photos of the boat ,I imagine from rolling the boat over on the beach to clear the water out .I think an inconspicuously placed drain plug would be an upgrade. It says something about the boat that this addition might be seen as an unwanted complication.

Burke mentions the thickened sheer plank as an “important” part of the boat’s construction. It has to bear the outriggers and leeboard ,while the typical inwale and outwale have been done away with . A solid sawn plank there would be stiffer fore and aft than plywood of the same weight ,and would have enough meat for screw fastening the oarlock sockets without complication . A number of builders here converting a classic to glued lap ply have elected to keep the unglued solid sawn sheer strake of the original .

What a romantic man Mr. Culler was, launching off with his tallow horn and glass water bottle wrapped in hemp ; and I , such an earthbound groundling : fretting about drainage details, etc. I think this little boat is best understood as a pure expression of the atavistic joy of building and using wooden boats .

This reminds me of an opportunity I had to sail a somewhat neglected Culler skiff at the Mystic small boat meet up some years ago . The boat had come a good distance over the highway on a trailer and leaked badly for this and other reasons obliquely referred to by the owner on handing her over .

Who cared? There was a wonderful wooden pump attached to and emptying into the centerboard trunk (the main source of the leaking ) . I was delighted to pump her out each time the water rose to floor board level .

There was a fine sailing breeze , but when I attempted my first tack the boat decelerated so quickly I was nearly thrown face down into the bow , missing stays . It was clear the simple flat bottomed skiff would have to be more carefully sailed through her tacks .This was no problem as I got used to her and I had a great sail .

Not only that ; the charisma of the boat was such that I felt her to be quite superior to the more modern members of the fleet flicking from tack to tack about us ; because they weren’t sinking ! Nor were they visibly decaying in the glorious manner of my command : no flaking paint or weathered wood!

Though I never left Mystic Harbor , it was like a journey to an earlier century .

[Ben Fuller]

The tallow box lives in the gunning box of my ducker, an old pipe tobacco tin ( remember those.) Tallow I think lives forever. Next time you get a chance at sailing a good little skiff in relatively flat water, try it without the rudder. I seldom carry mine now.

The Green Machine we built at Mystic has ply planks but a solid sheer strake for all the reasons listed above plus it keeps end grain out of the weather .... and it is pretty.

[Clinton B Chase]

Bill, Well said to all the above. This is why I am continually drawn to Culler's work...there is not compromise with his work...it is pure tradition and we need someone to keep reminding us that traditional ways work, the old ways work, and I try to go back to that not so I can become traditional but so it informs what I do in a good way. This, too, is why I hope I can build an Otter, and why I'd probably stick with cedar.

It never occurred to me there was no gunwale timbers! Wow. Makes sense to keep the 3/8" timber and makes the choice of ply questionable. One would have to add a rail to substitute and there we start to deviate.

Clint

[Clinton B Chase]

The box idea would be great for the Otter, no?

Tallow, good stuff for your Leathers: http://tinyurl.com/goodtallow

[Ben Fuller]

In an open boat like Otter, skiff built, thwarts are structural. The ducker has side decks. If you went with dory framing that would be different but then you have a different boat.

Tallow is fun to render, but you do have to get permission from the kitchen boss or maybe you are the kitchen boss. I have a couple of dedicated shop pots used for heating messes. Most interesting recently is the rosin beeswax mix that we used to make at Mystic for use instead of putty on shallow fastening heads. Wade did an article.

[Bill Perkins]

Clint ;you seem like a man who should own a copy of "Pete Culler's Boats" . His whole body of work is there , accompanied by intelligent commentary .Treat the purchase as a legitimate business expense .

I like the look of that prepackaged tallow. I have to confess to using my sunblock on my leathers and locks . I argue that using what's on hand is one of the most venerable of boating traditions .Tallow would be an upgrade though.

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/12-23-2009022222PM.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/12-23-2009021823pm2Otter2const2.jpg

[Ben Fuller]

Clint ;you seem like a man who should own a copy of "Pete Culler's Boats" . His whole body of work is there , accompanied by intelligent commentary .Treat the purchase as a legitimate business expense .

I like the look of that prepackaged tallow. I have to confess to using my sunblock on my leathers and locks . I argue that using what's on hand is one of the most venerable of boating traditions .Tallow would be an upgrade though.

Yeah, but the old Navy Cut pipe tobacco tin, now a little rusty on the outside as am I after thirty years ( in my case sixty) has superior aesthetics. And there is nothing quite like the big tallow cake you get after you let it cool in the fridge, natural or artificial. In a half hour I have enough tallow for a couple of years of oar locks.

[StevenBauer]

Roger, you should try to make it to the Small Reach Regatta one of these years. :)


Steven

[Clinton B Chase]

Holzbt, thanks for pictures. The more I see pictures like these and talk to you guys, the more and more I think about going all timber on this build. Any thoughts on the hours it would take an experienced builder to complete an Otter. It seems like something that could be done in 100 hours or less. I suppose that depends on how detailed we go.

Bill, I have the recent Burke book, but did not know about his older one you refer to...wow, over 110 bucks on Amazon. That will go on the list next to Spritsails and Lugsails by Leather..."wicked expensive, have to have".

[holzbt]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_3480.jpg
The molds for OTTER are on the bottom. You should be able to see how the molds are padded out for the planks.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_3481.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_3482.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k253/holzboat/IMG_3483.jpg

[holzbt]

Clint,
If I kept any records when I built the hull I can't find them. I'd guess I've got 50-60 hours into what you see here including the lofting and molds/building jig. I generally work at a glacial pace though.

[Bobcat]

I think of tallow as semi solid. So how do you get it out of Capt Pete's wooden cow horn?

[Ben Fuller]

I think of tallow as semi solid. So how do you get it out of Capt Pete's wooden cow horn?

Scooping in out with your finger works pretty well unless it is wicked cold.

[Bobcat]

Scooping in out with your finger works pretty well unless it is wicked cold.

That would work. The horn must have a bigger opening that I was envisioning.

[Clinton B Chase]

I just use my fingers to dole out the tallow from my jars of it.

I have a little write up on my blog for the Otter:

http://tinyurl.com/CullerOtter