Amigo 22

[rddrappo]

I was just looking over the study plans for the Glen-L Amigo 22, and had a few questions. I'd like to build one someday, right now just in the dreaming stage! :) I know JimD has the plans, if anyone else knows much about it, I'd like input. I'm wondering which rig is best, how comfortable it is for extended cruising, and if the headroom could easily be increased a couple inches to accomodate me at 6'1" tall. Of course, opinions are welcome, too!

[paladin]

I looked at the plans for someone else a year or so ago.....I think we were going to raise the gun'l/decks 3 inches all the way around, then raise the cabin 2-3 inches, and redraw the bottom of the frames 1/4 inch lower and add an extra 50 pounds ballast....the displacement would increase just a slight amount and the extra ballast would offset the other changes and the impact on speed would be immeasureable.

[rddrappo]

How fast is this boat? I'm not a racing type of guy, but don't want to take forever getting somewhere, either.

[JimD]

It won't be fast. As for rig, the gaff version suits the overall saltiness of the design. There is the bowsprit to worry about. A roller reef would make life a lot easier. The bermuda seems out of sorts and those huge jibs that provide a lot of the power have a reputation for loosing their shape when you roll reef them. Changing them while underway isn't something a lot recreational sailors like to do, either. So I like the gaff. I asked Glen-L once about a topsail on the gaff and the reply was essentially 'Why?' I'd just raise the cabin roof a couple inches and leave the decks alone but Chuck (paladin) has a lot more experience with design issues. I'm sure Glen-L would be no help at all with such major changes as raising the decks.

[rddrappo]

Thanks. Seems to me like just adding an inch or two to the cabin height would be fairly simple, but maybe there's some design problems with that idea. I agree, Chuck seems to know more about design. Even raising the decks doesn't sound like rocket science, but redrawing the frames does. Chuck, how about a little more explanation for us amateurs? Thanks!

[andrewe]

Looking at the headroom on Devlin´s Winter Wren. I used the same solution, Added 4" to the freeboard was much better looking than raising the house by the same. And as an extra `strake´at an effectivly vertical angle compared to the sides, it stopped the boxy look a simple extension of the sides would have made. Gave the impression of a bulwalk.
A

[JimD]

Raising freeboard and decks is a good way to ruin a boat. You might get lucky and get away with it or you might not. So unless you feel very lucky get someone qualified to make that assessment for you, such as an NA.

[andrewe]

JimD, as the son of an NA, I absorbed quite a lot. I redrew the complete design. My above comments were just an outline. As it happens, as a result of a move to another country, I did not get further than cutting out the panels. I was not happy with the filliting process. And it was a little cramped, hence the Cape Henry build.
A

[JimD]

JimD, as the son of an NA, I absorbed quite a lot. I redrew the complete design. My above comments were just an outline. As it happens, as a result of a move to another country, I did not get further than cutting out the panels. I was not happy with the filliting process. And it was a little cramped, hence the Cape Henry build.
A

I've always liked Winter Wren but its not on my list of future boats for about the same reasons as yours.

[andrewe]

As an aside, it it surprising how many designers are not NAs . David Thomas was a designer of military vehicals. Harrison Butler was an eye surgeon (charged £1 for each set) My father did aerodynamics at university, interrupted by WW11, flew fighters during that mess, went back to aerodynamics, did boats as a hobby, ´till sales made boats more atractive. So technically he was not an NA, just knew how it was done. Several thousend boats were built to his designs.
A

[paladin]

Depending on the boat design.....but with a single or multi chine design, sometimes the easiest thing is just build the hull using the frame layouts without deducting for the skin thickness. If done carefully the displacement will increase by the volume of the bottom plywood panel...for instance....if you use bottom plys of 3/4 inch and you have a 24 foot boat (LWL), assume that you have four full 4 x 8 sheets of ply, then the volume will be 48 x 96 x .75 = 3456 cubic inches divided by 1728 which equals 2 cubic feet so the displacement increases by approx. 100 pounds...less the additional materials to raise the cabin/deck then add the difference in ballast.

[rddrappo]

How much Amigo's cabin in under the gunwale? I was thinking just raising the actual trunk cabin lid by an inch or two. I doubt that would have much effect on the boat itself, may have to adjust the height of the mast, but that's it. As for weight, it would only increase by the weight of the extra couple of planks used to raise the lid.

[JimD]

... As for weight, it would only increase by the weight of the extra couple of planks used to raise the lid.

True, but more to the point, the roof is raised, which affects the center of gravity. Raising the CG is the principal cause for concern, not simply increasing the total weight of the boat by a few planks.

[JimD]

Here is my favourite 22er, Lyle Hess's Falmouth 22. In order to achieve standing headroom the cabin seems very tall but looks fine to my eye
http://www.samlmorse.com/forum/albums/album53/10_G.sized.jpg (http://www.samlmorse.com/forum/gallery/album53/10_G?full=1)

http://www.samlmorse.com/forum/albums/album57/8_G.jpg

[rddrappo]

True, but more to the point, the roof is raised, which affects the center of gravity. Raising the CG is the principal cause for concern, not simply increasing the total weight of the boat by a few planks.

So a little extra ballast would help, right? I see Chuck's reasoning for that. The Hess boat is nice, but I really like the overall look of the Amigo.

[JimD]

So a little extra ballast would help, right? I see Chuck's reasoning for that. The Hess boat is nice, but I really like the overall look of the Amigo.

Yes, that would be the reason for the extra ballast - to bring the CG back down again. I made a 22" model of Amigo's hull a few years ago. Its a very nice shape in 3D. I have it hunch the deep hull and relatively slack bilges mean she will like to heel a fair amount. Paul Fisher's Black Swan 22 also has standing headroom and can be strip planked or built in chined plywood.

[rddrappo]

I am considering a model myself. Did you strip plank it or just use something flexible for the hull? I was kind of wondering what the best material would be for a model.

[rddrappo]

Oh, and that Falmouth 22 would make one beautiful model for the mantel!

[JimD]

I am considering a model myself. Did you strip plank it or just use something flexible for the hull? I was kind of wondering what the best material would be for a model.

Strip planked it, sort of. From the plans I made bulkheads, glued them to a backbone, planked with little strips, filled in all the gaps with wood filler, sanded and painted.

[rddrappo]

So Jim, what you're saying is, you built a wooden boat and haven't posted a picture? Shame on you!:rolleyes: I have to get around to purchasing the full plans, and I'll build a scale model long before I ever build the actual boat. I was thinking more along the lines of 1' = 6". I know that's a big model, but it would allow me to build everything on the boat and make my mistakes there instead of on a full size hull. Did you ever come up with a cost estimate to build her?

[JimD]

So Jim, what you're saying is, you built a wooden boat and haven't posted a picture? Shame on you!:rolleyes: ...

:D I'll see if I can get around to posting a pic of the model soon. A 1:6 ratio model will be quite an undertaking. Four feet long with the bowsprit. You could build a real strip plank dinghy in the same time and I'm not sure that building such a big model will really help you build the real thing as much as you hope it might.

[rddrappo]

But it would be fun! Oh, where can a guy get his hands on the plans for that 22' Hess? I'd like to look them over.

[JimD]

But it would be fun! Oh, where can a guy get his hands on the plans for that 22' Hess? I'd like to look them over.

Alas, the Hess boat, along with its Bristol Channel 28 foot big sister, is built in fiberglass under licence by the Sam L Morse Company. so plans are not available. But you could probably gleen enough info from the Morse website to come up with a reasonable faximile: http://www.samlmorse.com/?a=home



FALMOUTH CUTTER - STANDARD LAYOUT
http://www.samlmorse.com/img/tmp/fc_layout2.gif (http://www.samlmorse.com/img/tmp/fc_layout1.gif)

Click on the image for a larger view

http://www.samlmorse.com/img/tmp/fc_profile.gif (http://www.samlmorse.com/img/tmp/fc_profile2.gif)


Designer: Lyle C. Hess
Length, Overall
30'6"
Length on Deck
22' 0"
Length, Waterline
20' 10"
Beam
8' 0"
Draft
3' 6"
Displacement
7,400 lbs.
Ballast, Solid Lead
2,500 lbs.
Total Sail Area
389 sq.ft.
Headroom
5' 11"
Auxiliary ...Yanmar
1 cyl. 9 hp


These lines are actually for the Bristol Channel 28:



http://www.samlmorse.com/img/tmp/bcc_lines.jpg

Gotta go to work now...

[andrewe]

I like Hess´s designs, but not noted for headroom. And that house is a little too tall and boxy for me.The style is in keeping, just the height.( All IMHO) As for trailerability (!) on that plan. Not here, at over 3.25 tons less trailer. One would be over the limit for private stuff and licences.
A

[JimD]

I like Hess´s designs, but not noted for headroom. And that house is a little too tall and boxy for me.The style is in keeping, just the height.( All IMHO) As for trailerability (!) on that plan. Not here, at over 3.25 tons less trailer. One would be over the limit for private stuff and licences.
A

Lucky for me I like the look of tall houses. A new Falmouth 22 probably costs around $120K and at that price I wouldn't want to be stooping around in the cabin :)

True, not exactly an easy boat to trailer, but then probably about the same as Amigo.

http://www.samlmorse.com/forum/albums/album50/Aspara.sized.jpg (http://www.samlmorse.com/forum/gallery/album50/Aspara?full=1)

Not bad for the inside of a 22 foot sailboat:

http://www.samlmorse.com/forum/albums/album60/f14.jpg

[rddrappo]

Jim, have you come across any good interior photos of the Amigo? I was actually looking at putting her in the water and leaving her there, if possible. Trailerability is nice, but not my biggest concern. I'm more looking for something I can live on for a couple months at a time. However, it would be nice to be able to put her on a trailer and take her home for repairs and maintenance.

As for the Falmouth, I can't pinpoint it, but there's something redeeming the tall cabin. It really doesn't look bad on that boat. On any other, it would seem hideous. That's a lot of money for a new boat. I'm thinking Amigo could be built well for around $20k. I look forward to the day when I can find out!

[andrewe]

Jim, that is comfy for a 22ft. I could change my glasses for that sort of luxury.In the mean time, I´m assuming the crouch to go out and work on my CH21 (cold too) Still I can consol myself with thinking it is not going to cost me $130K.:)
Andrew

[JimD]

Jim, have you come across any good interior photos of the Amigo?


Rddrappo, the only pics I've ever seen are the ones on Glen-L's website such as this from John Bales Amigo.

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/sailboat-images/dsn-amid1.jpg

Stan 'Butch' Lapetz joined this forum a few years ago when he bought an Amigo built by someone else and has occassionally posted to the forum to ask and answer questions about it.

[JimD]

Here is another small Hess cutter with a tall house. It was moored at Maple Bay about a ten minute drive from where we live but it seems to have moved on.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c28431076600000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Mrs JimD paddles past it:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7cf30b3127ccec2c3bf47e6e900000010O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[puppydog]

Hello,
I just joined the forums finally, but have been reading them for quite some time. I ordered my plans for the Amigo in November. I was really after the Allegra plans but since Ken went out of business I haven't been able to locate a set. The Amigo, Flicka, Allegra, Dana 24, Falmouth 22, and Jay Benford's 20' Gaff Cutter all have comparable aspects.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/puppydog1962/snap980.jpg

I had ordered the Amigo in hopes of stretching it the additional 2 feet. But I am having second thoughts about doing that. I realize I could easily increase the frame spacing an additional 2.25".
But before I do this, does anyone know where I might obtain the Allegra plans?
Thanks
Jim W

[rddrappo]

Welcome to the forum, puppydog. I have scoured the internet and various sites in search of a set of Allegra plans. I have yet to even find mention of a set existing. It seems they've gone the way of the dinosaurs. I've personally settled on the Amigo for a future build. I wish you luck, but doubt you'll find a set of Allegra plans.

[JimD]

Ken Hankinson used to sell Allegra plans when he had his own website. Seems there may have been some legal issues.

[tomlarkin]

I built an Allegra many years ago (Airex-core fiberglass, but I know better now :D). It was a really nice boat - not fast, but very comfortable and a lot of interior for such a small boat.

I bought the plans from Fred Bingham. I may have them somewhere - what are the ethics of giving them away for someone to use, since Fred is dead, and they aren't available anymore?

http://boatbuild.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/image-thumb601.png

[JimD]

... what are the ethics of giving them away for someone to use, since Fred is dead, and they aren't available anymore?



Typically, one boat per set of plans unless otherwise stipulated by the designer. Mr Bingham's heirs would likely be entitled to sell the plans or be paid for their use...unless otherwise stipulated.

[rddrappo]

JimD,

A little off topic, but this is my thread, so it should be okay! :p I stumbled across Mark Smaalder's site and got a look at his Wynfall. Beautiful boat. Do you know much about it? I realized he also wrote a book I have on my shelf, and is quite experienced offshore. Also, is he a member here? Just wondering. I've emailed him with a couple questions. I'm wondering how easy Glen-L is to deal with if I do build the Amigo.

[JimD]

JimD,

A little off topic, but this is my thread, so it should be okay! :p I stumbled across Mark Smaalder's site and got a look at his Wynfall. Beautiful boat. Do you know much about it? I realized he also wrote a book I have on my shelf, and is quite experienced offshore. Also, is he a member here? Just wondering. I've emailed him with a couple questions. I'm wondering how easy Glen-L is to deal with if I do build the Amigo.

In that case its ok ;)...a few years back iirc someone was trying to build an Allegra in strip plank and having a difficult time of it, especially regarding the ballast, since the wood version weighed considerably less than the FG version, and the plans are for FG. So perhaps that will discourage you. As for Glen-L, I've built two of their smaller boats and they are very easy to deal with, although they now have a builders' forum to take some of the pressure off having to answer zillions of emails. They won't, however, be very helpful if you want to make major changes. Mark Smaalder draws beautiful boats. But realistically, are you up to strip planking a 26 foot blue water boat? I know I'm not.

http://smaalders.net/yacht_design/assets/wynfallberm.jpg

[rddrappo]

JimD,

The Allegra ballast problem is the one reason I'd shy away from building one even if I could get ahold of the plans. If you get stuck, you're stuck. I know Glen-L has a builder's forum, but for some reason I haven't looked at it, and keep forgetting it's there. I'll have to check it out. As for strip-planking a 26 foot boat, I don't know. I haven't strip planked anything yet, so I couldn't say. It sure doesn't sound fun milling all those strips though. You'd need over 50 feet of space to run them through the table saw and thickness planer, unless you milled them then scarfed them, and that sounds like a chore in itself. I have to move soon, so when I can set my shop up again I'm going to get a build underway, something small. I have plans for a strip planked Inishmore from Selway-Fisher, might be a good project.

[JimD]

Robert, I bet Irishmore would be a very good intro to strip planking (which I haven't done, except over plywood).

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Inishp2.jpg

[rddrappo]

She's a pretty little boat. I'm just itching to build something!

[puppydog]

I'm wondering which rig is best, how comfortable it is for extended cruising, and if the headroom could easily be increased a couple inches to accomodate me at 6'1" tall. Of course, opinions are welcome, too!

The rig would be a matter of personal preferences. I prefer the Gaff rig on extended long distance in the open sea. If Coastal cruising where you need to set the sails time and time again, give me the masthead rig please.

Comfort would be your own decision to determine. As for myself I think it would be quite cozy and nice, but for more than 2 people, I know it would not be comfortable for me.

The Amigo has 6 foot of headroom in it already. I don't need to worry about headroom for me. I am 5'8" tall. However while going over the build plans I looked at the deck and cabin house cambers. I don't really see why you couldn't just increase the camber of both the deck and cabin house, by an inch. This would give you 6'2" of headroom and it will only move the CG vertically by a very slight margin. I highly doubt that you would be able to feel or see any differences.

When the build plans was first released for the Flicka, it was designed with 6'3" of headroom. After Pacific Sea Craft obtained the plans they decreased the headroom to 5'11". I do not know the particulars of this decrease but owners that have sailed both versions report no differences in performance or handling. I am in no way an expert in this field, so perhaps one of the designers could explain why you couldn't just simply increase the camber from 7 15/16" to 8 15/16"????
Jim
PS wasn't trying to high jack your thread. Sorry about that.

[rddrappo]

No worries, I don't consider it a hijacking! I'm open to all sorts of ideas. I'm 6'1", so would need that plus a couple extra inches to be comfortable. I have no problems with confined spaces, but if I'm going to spend a few days or more on a boat, I need to be able to stand up straight, even in the cabin. Give me a bunk, a stove, and a place to sit and read, and I'm a happy man! That's why I'm not looking too much at longer/larger boats. The Amigo seems to be all I'll need.

[puppydog]

No worries, I don't consider it a hijacking! I'm open to all sorts of ideas. I'm 6'1", so would need that plus a couple extra inches to be comfortable. I have no problems with confined spaces,

Well the idea I gave you above will give you 1" clearance above your height, might have to remember to dunk between the cabin beams. hehehe As for comfortable, I like wide open spaces. I don't like the two cabin layout of Amigo design. I personally cant stand sleeping in a small quarter berth. For the last 20 years I have been sleeping in a 6' x 8' box (Semi truck sleeper berth) and I am ready for more room in my life. I am considering increasing the length to 24 foot but not sure I can really do it. When I redraw the lines it just doesn't look or feel right. Haven't crunched any numbers yet to actually see the difference in performance. My idea was to increase the frame spacing by 3 1/4". I was also going to move the head to the location of the starboard quarter berth. Glen Witt did tell me I could move the head.
I will need to draw it out again but at the intended 22 foot and see if the head will fit without extending the length.

[rddrappo]

Funny, I also figured the cabin could use some rearranging, especially placement of the head. When I get closer to building her, I'll probably pay Glen-L to go over the interior with me, see if we can't lay it out a little more to my liking.

[puppydog]

The cabin layout that I am shooting for is the Dana 24's layout.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/puppydog1962/danafl.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/puppydog1962/1976086_6_thumb.jpg

Here is my rough drawing of the new layout I would like.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/puppydog1962/amigolayout.jpg

According to the build plans, you make temporary frames for stations 6 & 7. After turning the Hull we remove the temporary frames, placing the 3/4" ply bulkhead between the stations, forming the forward head bulkhead. I asked Glen if we could build permanent frames in their place and not place the full bulkhead but a partial one forming the aft bulkhead below the berth. He stated this wouldn't be a problem at all.
I drew this with my wife in mind, so excuse the non-nautical terms in it. hehehe
Maybe this is what you would like?
JimW

[rddrappo]

Nice layout. However, I'd prefer to move the galley sink next to the head. That would put all the plumbing on one side of the boat, much easier to deal with, and open up the seat next to the stove so that you could fit a small table/nav station there. It's nice to have the sink closer to the stove, but a pair of seats seem like a waste of space. That Dana sure has a pretty interior!

[paladin]

You never put the galley on the same side as the head....generally because of the water pickup for use in the head, and the overboard discharge if you use a Lectra san system as you will/may also have a sea water pickup for the galley and engine coolant.

[rddrappo]

Makes sense. Kinda like pissing upstream from your camp? Well, there goes that idea! My construction background tells me to put all the plumbing in one area, but I can see that it could be a problem. I guess the head could be a bit smaller to enlarge the seating area next to it, and maybe put a hanging locker next to the galley. I'm thinking of one person aboard, maybe two at times, so I don't need a ton of seating. I just need one comfy place to sit down and eat or go over charts.

[puppydog]

may also have a sea water pickup for the galley and engine coolant.

The sea water pick up is in my plans for the galley, but I will not need it for engine coolant. I intend to use an electric motor. I am also considering the outboard for redundancy. Never know what can and will happen. Chuck I don't think I will need that new sail plan now. I see that I don't need to add that additional 2 feet of length after all.

Yeah the head could be reduced. Its drawn as 4' long. I am sure you could make it only 3' instead. This would give an additional foot to that starboard settee. Another option would be to add a foot hanging locker between the head and settee, like the Dana has.

It will be me, my wife and son sailing on mine.
Jim W.

[tomlarkin]

I'm thinking of one person aboard, maybe two at times, so I don't need a ton of seating.
Yes, just ask my ex-wife if the boat is too small for 2 to live aboard. :-)

[tomlarkin]

...a pair of seats seem like a waste of space.

Also, you want a nice seat on either side so you have someplace to sit below when you're heeled over in either direction. :)

[puppydog]

I failed to mention that a table slides out from under the berth between the p & s settees.

[rddrappo]

Also, you want a nice seat on either side so you have someplace to sit below when you're heeled over in either direction. :)

Makes sense. Still, is seems space is already so limited, I'd hate to put seating in place of more useful areas.

As for the ex wife, sorry it happened that way. I'm having serious doubts about ever getting married. All of my relationships end due to my sense of freedom. Seems I spend too much time alone, and women just don't get it when I want my space. So I think I'm better off going it alone. Of course, there was one gal with the soul of a wanderer, but that was quite some time ago.

[JimD]

... Of course, there was one gal with the soul of a wanderer, but that was quite some time ago.
She probably got married and settled down :D

[rddrappo]

Actually JimD, I ran into her last January. We get along well, but I know myself and I don't want to hurt her again, so I don't bother. I just don't have it in me to settle down, and I fear that all women eventually want to do just that. My current GF is beginning to realize that, despite her efforts, I'm not going to give in. I poke fun at Joshua Slocum for abandoning his wife to travel the world, but I wish I could find a woman who would tolerate such things.

Oh well, back to the boat. Puppydog, is that table on the Amigo plans or Dana's? Sounds neat. Maybe throw a sheet of lexan over it and put your chart in there? I grew up looking at the table in my stepfather's cabin cruiser, and there was a chart in it. That grew on me.

[puppydog]

Oh well, back to the boat. Puppydog, is that table on the Amigo plans or Dana's? Sounds neat. Maybe throw a sheet of lexan over it and put your chart in there? I grew up looking at the table in my stepfather's cabin cruiser, and there was a chart in it. That grew on me.

The table is from the Dana 24 also. The compassion post on the Dana gets in the way of the table and you can see how they worked around that. If you intend to build the masthead deck step version then you wouldn't need to worry about that work around.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/puppydog1962/1860392_34_thumb.jpg

There is also another folding table at the end of the port settee on the Dana 24.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/puppydog1962/1805315_4.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd132/puppydog1962/1860392_35_thumb.jpg

I love the Dana 24 and the Allegra 24. Both are very much the same in almost every way. The head and galley are reversed is about the only difference in the two boats besides dimensions. But the cost of the production Dana makes it to far out of my reach. And no plans for the Allegra to really be found except by luck, the Amigo is the best compromise in build plans I have found so far.
Jim W