Simple, seaworthy, dry 2 man rowboat for SF bay? (warning, rambling post)

[seasnail]

I'm looking for plans for a simple, seaworthy, car-toppable 2 man boat for rowing on the San Francisco bay. The water can get pretty rough out here on occasion and it can also get pretty windy, so seaworthiness and windage seem to be very important. The obvious design that everyone points to is the dory, and I have been considering this design from hannu vartiala:

http://koti.kapsi.fi/hvartial/3sd/3sd.htm

I am drawn to this boat because of its simplicity, its efficient use of materials and the supposed merits of the dory shape. I wonder about the windage and how seaworthy light dories actually are, and I am slightly repulsed by the massive sheer on the boat.

Has anyone actually spent much time rowing a larger light dory (this one is 17'8" x 4'5") in rough weather? or any boat for that matter? I read a lot of stuff like "banks dories are great because fishermen used to use them in rough weather" or "light dories are not seaworthy because they don't weigh as much as traditional dories and they don't have 1000kg of fish in the bottom" or "dories suck because they were made for stacking." Michael Storer has an article about the seaworthiness of the light dory but it seems more like speculation/advertising for his rowboat:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/dory.html

So, again, I'd like to hear from someone who has spent time rowing in windy, rough water w/ white caps, etc.

If you have suggestions for other boats, here are some things that are important to me for this design:

Holds 2+ people
Car toppable (less than 18x4 ft or so)
Stays dry in the boat (more or less)
Seaworthy
Easy to row
Low windage
3 or 4 chines max (fewer the better!)

Things that are less important or not important to me:

Sliding seat
Adding a sail/motor
Winning races
Winning beauty contests

Obviously this boat will have to be a compromise because many of these criteria are at odds, e.g. low windage and staying dry.

[BarnacleGrim]

For low windage and good seakeeping, the dory needs to be heavy and perhaps bigger than the 3SD. This means it won't be easy to row, and you can forget about cartopping.

In my opinion anything small enough to be cartopped belongs in sheltered waters only. I wonder how a big Whitehall would do in the San Francisco bay? A dory could probably be made smaller with the same seakeeping ability, but a Whitehall should be pretty easy to row in spite of the weight...

[peterAustralia]

hi

I built Hannu's 18ft x 4ft beam 'little sister' banks dory from the same site.

I have found the dory pretty OK, but it was not really suited for my uses, but that was my mistake. I mainly do solo rowing, and have found the 'little sister' to have high windage. It is also a little tender, that does not worry me, however it is off putting for some less agile folks who might be tempted to get onto the water.

Hannu's newer design is 5 inches wider. I think this is good as it makes it a bit less tender. It the extra beam is good for positioning rowlocks. I had to add small outrigger to get an extra 2 or 3 inches on each side more rowlock width.

On any day with moderate or stronger wind I add water ballast. without the ballast it is really hard to control. I add about 80kg normally. I have also added a rudder to assist in controlling the boat. The rudder has been a big help. Because of the highly sloped transom, I put a heavy aluminium tube down vertical in the stern compartment to contain the rudder stock.

Based on a year and a half or rowing Hannu's similar 18ft dory, I can say that whilst not a bad boat, I would much prefer a 17ft x 4'8" Dion Swampscott dory.

By the way, yes you can get a large boat onto a roof rack easily. It goes on sideways and then is rotated around. To achieve this all you need to do it fix a piece of wood between the 2 roofracks just above the top of the car doors. Take the rowlocks off first though they will trip up the sliding process.

n peter evans

[TerryLL]

I am drawn to this boat because of its simplicity, its efficient use of materials and the supposed merits of the dory shape. I wonder about the windage and how seaworthy light dories actually are, and I am slightly repulsed by the massive sheer on the boat.

There are thousands of dory designs out there, and they all have their merits. Some are exceptional sailers, some are terrific surf boats, some are great rowboats, some are good powerboats, and some are useful as stackable and disposable fishing skiffs to be carried on the deck of cod and halibut schooners. The boat you are considering falls into this latter category.

Dories comprise a very large and diverse class of boats. Some are highly specialized in their intended use, and perform poorly and even dangerously when used in ways never intended by their designers. Again, the boat you are considering falls into this latter category. Do not be misled by your faith in "the supposed merits of the dory shape". The Banks dory is unstable when lightly built and unbalasted, has considerable windage, and is very difficult to row when heeled.

I can only suggest that you take the time to build this boat, to the scantlings that would make it cartoppable, and then take it for a row on a windy day. Wear your PFD.

[Boatmik]

Michael Storer has an article about the seaworthiness of the light dory but it seems more like speculation/advertising for his rowboat:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/dory.html

So, again, I'd like to hear from someone who has spent time rowing in windy, rough water w/ white caps, etc.

My Rowboat has sgnificant weaknesses for the type of use you are looking at too and has increased stability with some reduction in performance over a really good Dory.

But I think my analysis of Lightweight Modern Dories is reasonable. As limitations are dealt with ... "Dories" become more and more like Dinghies and less and less like the Classic Dory form.

There was some discussion on the Yahoo Dory forum on this topic from users.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DoryBoat/message/1512
you can follow the discussion through at the bottom of that page.

That forum is probably a good place to ask.

Additionally there are starting to be a number of open water rowing shells that go a different way. Of course there is the venerable Alden shell from a long time ago.

Low windage and keeping dry can often be achieved using much lower freeboard with more length, moderate or low beam so the boat doesn't kick water up very easily. (or sitting in the back seat)

But if toooooo fine it will submarine and the driver will get a good dousing.

You are right ... the real limitation of most modern dories is the towering topsides and the very small grip on the water. Bolger's Light Dory manages to push the hull in lots of clever ways keeping the bottom panel wide in the ends for more stability and the ends down relatively low compared to some of the more "showy" recent boats.

Have a look back on my site at the Light Dory Profile and compare it to the three sheet dory in your other link. Looking closely you will see significant differences. If I had more time I would overlay them for you. But using eyes will be enough to start seeing some really interesting subtleties in the Bolger design. The differences are all in favour of the Bolger boat (IMHO IMHO).

But while the Bolger might be "better" ... maybe it still doesn't answer your real requirement. (check with the Dory forum)

There are also double enders with a reduced sheer which may or may not be more along the line of what you are looking at.
http://www.luckhardt.com/hr_restoration.html.

But I think you will still end up asking the same questions of users of other types.

Good luck with the search!

Michael Storer

[john welsford]

Been there done that, New Zealand has some very rough waters and years ago I wanted to do a rowing holiday ( too impecunious to do anything that had sails or a motor) so designed and built a Light dory after the style of Bolgers one and rowed from Dargaville to Helensville on the Kaipara harbour. It took 8 days, covered about 120 miles, I looked up all the inlets, got stranded on endless mudflats when the tide went out, found damn big pressure waves from fast tides flowing over underwater sandbars, battled with the bar with wind against tide and generally had a really good time.
The boat worked pretty well.
However, the dory design has shortcomings, its long, short dories are all overhang and no waterline length and consequently slow. Its a big boat even though light in weight cartopping it would be a mission. It was/is ( there are quite a few of these around and plans sell steadily) popular but is really a one man boat, its too fine in the ends to carry any weight other than right in the centre, its too tender for most, a lot like riding a bicycle, just think of your first time on a two wheeler. A freind climbed in for a row in my boat, took two strokes and fell out. With an experienced oarsman it was incredibly seaworthy, but its not a beginners boat.

I've designed lots of Dory style boats, but they are pretty much unrecognisable as they have very rounded sides, and those sides are needed to keep the flat panel bottoms narrow enough to work well and still get stability to carry sail. Think about the Swampscott sailing dories shape , and they were still somewhat tender.

The dory shape is not American in origin, you'll find records of this shape anywhere there was wide board stock and a need for a simple boat that was cheap to build, and that was why they were used on the Banks Schooners, not because they were inherently any better than anything else. Just that they were cheap, stacked one inside the other and did the job.

I had a lot of fun in my Light Dory, but have done better designs since.

JohnW


I'm looking for plans for a simple, seaworthy, car-toppable 2 man boat for rowing on the San Francisco bay. The water can get pretty rough out here on occasion and it can also get pretty windy, so seaworthiness and windage seem to be very important. The obvious design that everyone points to is the dory, and I have been considering this design from hannu vartiala:

http://koti.kapsi.fi/hvartial/3sd/3sd.htm

I am drawn to this boat because of its simplicity, its efficient use of materials and the supposed merits of the dory shape. I wonder about the windage and how seaworthy light dories actually are, and I am slightly repulsed by the massive sheer on the boat.

Has anyone actually spent much time rowing a larger light dory (this one is 17'8" x 4'5") in rough weather? or any boat for that matter? I read a lot of stuff like "banks dories are great because fishermen used to use them in rough weather" or "light dories are not seaworthy because they don't weigh as much as traditional dories and they don't have 1000kg of fish in the bottom" or "dories suck because they were made for stacking." Michael Storer has an article about the seaworthiness of the light dory but it seems more like speculation/advertising for his rowboat:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/dory.html

So, again, I'd like to hear from someone who has spent time rowing in windy, rough water w/ white caps, etc.

If you have suggestions for other boats, here are some things that are important to me for this design:

Holds 2+ people
Car toppable (less than 18x4 ft or so)
Stays dry in the boat (more or less)
Seaworthy
Easy to row
Low windage
3 or 4 chines max (fewer the better!)

Things that are less important or not important to me:

Sliding seat
Adding a sail/motor
Winning races
Winning beauty contests

Obviously this boat will have to be a compromise because many of these criteria are at odds, e.g. low windage and staying dry.

[skuthorp]

Selway fisher have some excellent craft which might suit the bill.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/
I have a similar requirement for similar short steep chop conditions, but plans are on hold as we moved, twice, and two Greenland kayaks are the first priority now. I was looking at a Windrush, with removable half-decks or canvas covers fore and aft, but a Mandarin 17 might suit your requirements.

[BarnacleGrim]

Is having to trailer the boat a very big disadvantage? I wouldn't worry so much about the extra cost considering the safety and comfort advantage both on the road and on the sea with a bigger boat.

What about one of Jeff Spira's Grand Banks (http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_nova.html) dories?

[Thorne]

Having just gotten a used Cosine Wherry, I could recommend it for cartopping and carrying two people.

You don't say if the two person crew will both be rowing or just one rowing and one passenger -- the Cosine can be rowed with two rowers but I suspect it would pitch a lot.

It is not a traditional design, but a modern CAD-based design for light weight and a displacement of 500 lbs or so. Can take a trolling motor or small outboard.

Anything that will be safe on SF Bay will have some windage -- otherwise you have to choose between low freeboard or extra windage...go for the windage.

[maineman]

I used to row a 16' whitehall along the Maine coast in some iffy conditions. It was lots of fun and almost always enough boat. But for the last few years, I've found kayaks to be the ticket to most of my coastal cruising. They're efficient, less expensive, easy to transport and store, and you get to see where you're headed instead of where you've been.
Obviously, paddling is a different experience than rowing. But, for me, at least for now, it feels right.

[seasnail]

Thanks for all the replies!

It sounds like the plywood banks dory may not be the ticket. The boat still needs to be car toppable and I'm still going rowing on the bay, so it's really a matter of which boat best fills this requirement (without taking 100's of hours to build or costing a mint). If I need to deck the boat over and wear a wetsuit and a pfd so be it.

I should have also mentioned that I am not an experienced rower. I imagine a skilled individual could row just about anything in rough weather, and I've seen people from the Open Water Rowing club heading out to the pacific ocean on boats that look like oxford rowing shells. That's not for me, at least not right now =)

John Welsford - It sounds like you have both the firsthand experience and naval architecture experience to recommend a design. I was previously looking at your Mollyhawk design, how well do you think this suits my needs?

Trailers- I don't want to spend money on a trailer or trailer hitch or trailer light connectors and I don't even have a place to put a trailer, so I'm sticking to car topping.

Thorne - Both people will be rowing. The Cosine wherry is beautiful, but way too much work.

Selway fisher boats- also beautiful, but still a bit much work.

Kayaks- make me claustrophobic

Michael Storer - I hope you weren't offended by my earlier comments. I agree with all of your arguments on your light dory page, but I guess I was just looking for you to present an alternative (e.g. Light dories = bad idea, here's a better alternative).
I like what you say here:

"Low windage and keeping dry can often be achieved using much lower freeboard with more length, moderate or low beam so the boat doesn't kick water up very easily. (or sitting in the back seat)
But if toooooo fine it will submarine and the driver will get a good dousing."

Kind of reminds me of the "merry wherry" boats here:

http://www.merrywherry.com/merryseatwotheru.html

They look nice but again, complicated....

[boylesboats]

Car Toppable?
Car topping an 18 ft dory... gee I oughta see this :D
Awfully big of a boat to be putting on top of these day cars.... How are you gonna see where you're going?
A lightweight trailer could be the ticket...

If ya built the dory traditional way.. Trust me on this...
I would not even bother with putting that beast on top of my car... an solid planked 16ft dories with (12ft bottom) weighed somewhere 295-305 pounds...

My advice is, get a trailer and save your back...

[JBreeze]

Take a look at the Otter 16:

The requirements for the Otter 16 were simple: an able open rowing skiff with an auxiliary sail.
This had to be a row boat first.
A length around 16', lets us use long oars and is about ideal for a serious row boat, smaller skiffs do not have sufficient inertia to go through a chop. This size also provides sufficient seaworthiness and ample capacity for camping cruising or fishing.
The layout can be used for single or double rowing.
The sail is an auxiliary sail: small are and spars that can be stowed inside while rowing; the small daggerboard and rudder do not affect rowing performance......Build it without the aux. sail.

http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=OT16&cat=10

You mentioned wind, but what about currents? I built the Row 13 (a single from the same designer) and it is a great boat for sheltered harbors. But I've also been out when the wind AND currents started to work against me and couldn't make headway. I eventually modified the transom and added a 2 hp honda to give me more range and less concern about wind/tides.

One other comment - the weight and amount of time required for construction may be accurate for a very experienced boat builder....figure on 10-20% more weight and 100% more time for a rookie builder. If the site says 160 lbs, then figure on 180+ to be realistic

[keyhavenpotterer]

How about "Three Sheets"

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_18709720/67a9/__sr_/a206.jpg?grA2_MJBQCnCrVth/

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_18709720/67a9/__sr_/bd6c.jpg?grA2_MJBQei9tGs4

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_18709720/67a9/__sr_/6616.jpg?grA2_MJBfXZIQZ3K

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_18709720/67a9/__sr_/58df.jpg?grA2_MJBqYRW_.4S

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_18709720/67a9/__sr_/cee4.jpg?grA2_MJBzwUDKorC

Here a pal is being very creative with 2 sheets of cheap ply. Third sheet is a spare in case of breakages. No drawings, no plans, just creativity. Love the stern torturer.

Brian

[keyhavenpotterer]

Would be interesting to see if Paul Gartside's Flashboat might be built with a torturer like the one shown.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/flashrsup.JPG

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/flashwait1.JPG

[TerryLL]

seasnail,
Go buy this book: Instant Boatbuilding with Dynamite Payson

There are several designs that meet your needs, all very easy to build, some can be cartopped. Specifically "Cartopper" at 11'6" X 4' and 90 pounds is a nice little boat for one rower. Lots of pictures showing construction techniques, complete bill of materials. You can get a quick look here:

http://www.instantboats.com/

[BarnacleGrim]

If you really want a dry and seaworthy boat, you will have to either get a trailer or a mooring at a marina or similar place.

However you might be able to cartop an outrigger canoe, if you can take apart the outrigger every time you launch and retrieve it.

Also consider cruising some inland waterways before taking on the bay.

[ahp]

The Swampscot Dory is a far better boat for you than the Banks Dory. I have rowed both. Consider the Peapod, which was widely used by lighthouse keepers.

[seasnail]

Ok,

I keep hearing:

1. Swampscott dories are good (specifically dion?)

and

2. Chamberlain Gunning dories are good (I read this elsewhere in the forums)

and

3. Heavier is better

So, maybe I should build a double chined, light weight swampscott or gunning dory and have water ballast that I can add at the dock to bring the boat to a seaworthy weight on windy/rough days?

[Thorne]

Part of the problem we have here is that requirements are being added as we go along -- now we are faced with the decision that strip-built and the Selway-Fisher designs are "too much work".

So, can you be more specific as to the design requirements? Any more changes or additions to your initial post?

We get these posts here all the time, and they always seem to want a boat that can be cartopped, sail around the world, and sleep seven -- but cost under $100...

(grin)

I think you need to get real here -- if the boat MUST be solid ply built stitch and glue/screw, and it MUST handle two rowers, and it MUST be cartopped -- you have painted yourself into an extremely tight corner!

How big and strong are ya -- kinda like De Gubernator ob Kalifor-Nia? And how tall is the car/truck in question?

Cartopping (and I take this issue seriously as I've done a LOT of canoe cartopping on small cars, VW vans, and small trucks) can require a lot of upper-body strength, and guess what is very tired after a long row on SF Bay?

Also, a boat that can be loaded under perfect conditions may prove dangerous to load/unload under normal SF Bay conditions -- like 35 knot gusts every summer afternoon.

There are various designs that may still meet your requirements, Welsford's Joansa in particular, although I'm not sure about the doubles rowing bit.

Where on the Bay will you be rowing? I'll strongly suggest that you get out on the water this winter (lovely conditions when the sun is out, very little wind usually), and try rowing with some of the TSCA or rowing clubs.

[TerryLL]

seasnail,

Listen to Thorne. All very good advice.
If you decide on a Swampscott dory, there are many here who have built them and we can give you an ear full. Very capable boats, as a rule, and not too difficult to build.

[boylesboats]

seasnail,

Listen to Thorne. All very good advice.
If you decide on a Swampscott dory, there are many here who have built them and we can give you an ear full. Very capable boats, as a rule, and not too difficult to build.

and still not car toppable

[seasnail]

Part of the problem we have here is that requirements are being added as we go along -- now we are faced with the decision that strip-built and the Selway-Fisher designs are "too much work".

Sorry, I'm creating mass confusion here by not knowing what "four chines" means. When I said four chines, I meant two because I don't know what I'm talking about (I thought the chines were specified for the full hull, not half). I was a bit confused when people started recommending these multi-chine things. So, two chines max, like this boat:

http://www.butlerprojects.com/boats/pacific/index.htm


We get these posts here all the time, and they always seem to want a boat that can be cartopped, sail around the world, and sleep seven -- but cost under $100...

This would be nice too... =)

I think you need to get real here -- if the boat MUST be solid ply built stitch and glue/screw, and it MUST handle two rowers, and it MUST be cartopped -- you have painted yourself into an extremely tight corner!

A two person rowboat that fits on my car sounded reasonable at the time =)

How big and strong are ya -- kinda like De Gubernator ob Kalifor-Nia? And how tall is the car/truck in question?

I'm 6' 230lb, definitely stronger (and fatter) than the average guy. The car is a 1999 Honda CR-V.


Where on the Bay will you be rowing? I'll strongly suggest that you get out on the water this winter (lovely conditions when the sun is out, very little wind usually), and try rowing with some of the TSCA or rowing clubs.

I live in oakland, so I'll be rowing on the estuary sometimes, and I'd like to be able to row from the berkeley marina to angel island or sausalito. I'll probably keep to the area encircled by the golden gate, the bay bridge and the richmond bridge. I have no desire to row out of the gate.

[boylesboats]

Sorry, I'm creating mass confusion here by not knowing what "four chines" means. When I said four chines, I meant two because I don't know what I'm talking about (I thought the chines were specified for the full hull, not half). I was a bit confused when people started recommending these multi-chine things. So, two chines max, like this boat:

http://www.butlerprojects.com/boats/pacific/index.htm




This would be nice too... =)



A two person rowboat that fits on my car sounded reasonable at the time =)



I'm 6' 230lb, definitely stronger (and fatter) than the average guy. The car is a 1999 Honda CR-V.




I live in oakland, so I'll be rowing on the estuary sometimes, and I'd like to be able to row from the berkeley marina to angel island or sausalito. I'll probably keep to the area encircled by the golden gate, the bay bridge and the richmond bridge. I have no desire to row out of the gate.

One from Butler above is simple to build... Read his instructions carefully, you'll catch on..

[seasnail]

One from Butler above is simple to build... Read his instructions carefully, you'll catch on..

I'd like to build something like that, but 2 feet longer. Same beam, freeboard, etc.

[boylesboats]

I'd like to build something like that, but 2 feet longer. Same beam, freeboard, etc.

Butler's Gun Dory... http://www.butlerprojects.com/boats/gundory/index.htm
lenght is little over 19', beam is around 6'..
Definitely not a car topper...:(

[Steve Paskey]

We get these posts here all the time, and they always seem to want a boat that can be cartopped, sail around the world, and sleep seven -- but cost under $100...

(grin)


Could be worse, Thorne ... at least he's not asking for stand-up fishing and the ability to row to the Farallons ... :D

The text below is from an actual Craigslist ad, currently running in the Bay area. Maybe you should give this guy a shout?

WANTED
I would like to buy a used rowing boat with the following
- sliding seat rowing
- capable of having 2 rowers
- capable of rowing to the Farallons and back, i.e. ocean stable
- capable of stand up fishing
- capable of being put on my car and launched by me alone

[BarnacleGrim]

If you can't keep a trailer at home, perhaps you can get a parking space at the marina?

[seasnail]

If you can't keep a trailer at home, perhaps you can get a parking space at the marina?


Yep. Again, more money than I would like to spend. If I wanted to pay for boat parking I'd buy a cheap 20ft sailboat and keep it at the marina.

Another downside of having a trailered boat is you have to launch at a ramp and fend off the hillbillies with bayliners. yecch.

The whole idea behind this is to have a boat I can throw on my car, drive wherever and be rowing in short order. I just want to get out on the bay and get some exercise and enjoy myself, with minimum fuss.

[davebrown]

i am in a rowing club out of hyde park. i row in the bay several times a month, not counting going out in the bay either through sausalito or one of the south bay launches in my own boats. i have been going out off and on for about 15 yrs. i take my own boats out for evening or morning rows several times a week up in the delta. thorne also knows the area, and goes out with frequency. may i humbly inform you that your desires here will work only if you are super, super vigilant about the weather (which limits you to not many days per year) and if you are experienced about what the water is going to do, before it does it. the bottom line: your boat is too small. harbor freight sells a lightweight, $250 trailer which, with a good set of bearings, will last you years. you could tow a 16 or 17 ft. gunning dory with it. but taking a 12 ft. car-topper out--maybe over at sausalito, or further up, but the bay is too much. everything will go just fine, until it doesn't. having said that, i use a 14 ft. sliding seat single to go out from hyde park and around alcatraz with frequency. it is a whitehall type bad weather slugger. so it can be done. but i would start out over in sausalito and stay out of the way of the tankers, the ferries, and the big neap rollers that will demand great attention and response. i hope you read my message as a positive one. build the right boat, or stay over in the more protected areas until, errr, you get your feet wet. and we all hope to see you out in a home-built boat.

[davebrown]

oh, and as an afterthought, the pacific troller (i think that was the 16 ft'er) looks to be a good combination of rough weather ability and lightweight. i still wouldn't want to cartop it.

[Thorne]

Dave certainly knows whereof he speaks -- experience on local waters is the key!

I actually haven't rowed much out on the Bay proper -- I've stuck to protected waters as suggested above, mostly around Alameda, Richardson Bay and a LOT out of the Richmond Marina. And I don't sail small open boats on the Bay without buddyboating with another boat that has a small outboard at the very least -- it can be rough out there!

The good news is that you are a big guy with a small car -=- making cartopping larger boats more possible. But you will encounter a length issue, as that CRV can't be more than 16' long and possibly as short as 14', right?

So it would be better to not exceed the length of the car by more than 3' at either end, and even that might prove challenging if you drive on the freeways at all.

At this stage I'll guess that your perfect boat for the use and conditions described is two sea kayaks on that roofrack.

;0 )

[Jay Greer]

If I were to design a rough water boat for two oars men, I would base it on the design of the Cornish Pilot Gigs as did Paul Gartside with his "Flashboat". The Cornish gigs were designed and built back in the early 1800's for landing a pilot aboard a sailing ship in any weather. They can survive in the nastiest chop. And, believe me, the weather can get very nasty off the coast of Cornwall! The boats were also used for rescue and smuggling as well.
http://www.ourcornwall.co.uk/articles/cornish-pilot-gigs
Jay

[Bill Mercer]

Well, if you really want a seaworthy, cartoppable two-person pulling boat, look at http://capefalconkayak.com/adirondackguideboat.html
The original guideboats are supposed to be as seaworthy as anything that size, and a 50 or 60 lb SOF boat will be easy enough to get on top of a car, unless it's blowing 40 knots and you get picked up and carried to Hawaii as soon as you lift the thing up. You would have to laminate the ribs and stem (guideboat builders apparently referred to the frames as 'ribs'), but other that that I don't see a lot of PIA in it (I've built an SOF kayak).

Generally guideboats can only be rowed by one person at a time--they can cary some weight, but aren't set up for two rowing stations. I took my wife rowing in a kevlar guideboat at the Port Townsend boat show a few years ago, and that boat moved really easily with two kinda hefty people in it.

[Bill Mercer]

http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/agb_image_file/paulbystookey.jpg

from http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/roughwater.html

http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/agb_image_file/mikiyasequoia1.jpg

http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/agb_image_file/mikiyasequoia2.jpg

http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com/agb_image_file/mikiyasequoia3.jpg

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

There was a review of Flashboat in Woodenboat a long time ago. Cornish Gigs may be the inspiration, but when shortened an lightened so much they are a very different boat. It is a very, very pretty boat. From memory the article was a comparison between it and another design. One of them looked "tender" according to the Editorial Eye.

I don't know if it was Flashboat or the other.

This modern trend to call lightened and shortened versions of traditional boats "seaworthy" because of predecessors they are loosely based on is a very negative trend that will lead to a lot of disappointment among the final builders/users of such boats.

Those comparisons are pure marketing in many cases. Or because everyone else is doing it too. Goes round and round the internet.

Flashboat looks kinda similar to the Gigs in some of the features and profile, but anyone with experience can see that the scale and weight turns them into completely different boats. Flashboat is roofrackable .. the normal Cornish Gig is probably not.

Um ... Cornish gigs were over 30 feet long for a start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_pilot_gig

The things that make boats seaworthy are nebulous or complex. So many factors many interacting. Traditional boats can teach us something in a broad sense ...
Entry,
hollow
vee
volume distribution
cross section
prismatic coefficient
Centre of gravity
stability curve
and much more.

But like the dory example I gave in my webpage ... if you reduce the size of all dimensions by 25% the stability goes down 70%. This is basic to boat design. For anything from a yacht to a dinghy.

If a 32ft cornish gig is scaled down perfectly ...
stability is 1/16 of the original
Crew capacity is the original six divided by a factor of 8!
Beam will be 2ft4"

Just think of the directional stability of a thin 32ft boat! It is going to be wonderful. Think of the natural fine-ness of the lines.

The scaled down versions have no relationship at all. Stem curve, transom shape and sheer only. Aesthetic relationship.

Have you ever wondered why model yachts have keel depths almost as long as the boat?

So whatever is scaled down is going to need significant changes in the hullform to be usable. With these changes it is going to be a different boat with different handling and all the items above are going to have to shift to try and find some stability somewhere.

Saying a "type" is seaworthy is pure bunkum. If it is the size and weight of its predecessors, used by the same experienced salty types there is some sort of argument possible.

With guideboats ... I am from Australia ... so excuse my ignorance and my antipodean spelling. Were they designed for Rivers and Lakes?

The biggest difference between rivers and lakes and harbours ... is wind - sea breezes tend to be somewhat emphatic. Lakes can have adiabatic winds which are just as nasty.

This brings in the other point. While Cornish gigs and Dories may be seaworthy in similar conditions (um ... didn't the gigs back into the beach? Can't quite remember) a guideboat might be seaworthy in a reed lined lake
... but quite different in S.F. harbour
(see ... antipodean spelling again!!)

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[keyhavenpotterer]

Real Flashboats here, no car topper these
http://picasaweb.google.com/mazmarkmeg/Flashboatpics#

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_W0kqE4qyMMI/SDet0zh2rOI/AAAAAAAABL0/6Pq-0oEtpV8/s640/ebay%20030.jpg

[Jay Greer]

I think that I can offer a bit of first hand experience so far as dealing with dories is concerned as, I once owned a Glouster Stack Dory that we had converted for cruising the Channel Islands of S. California. "Gus" had a salty look with. With a sliding gunter rig and a boom tent for shelter, when anchored, the boat was used for a happy summer of crusing about all of the islands save San Clamente and San Nicoles. The boat sailed only on a reach or off the wind. Only when it was loaded down with a several hundred pounds of provisions and gear, did it have enough interia to allow it to be rowed to weather. Though it was an enjoyable experience, I would not choose such a design for recreational rowing in San Francisco Bay. The high bow makes rowing in a cross wind a bitch!!! I still advocate that a study of the Cornish Pilot Gigs will give insite into the evolution of a proper boat for Two on The Bay.
I do have the lines of a double banked pulling boat that cleaned house from Marina del Rey to Catalina Island and back against a fleet of dories and other asundry designs. Perhaps some of you saw Jerry Hampton and I varnishing "Feather" during the Wooden Boat Festival both this year and last year. Feather has her own trailer which is quite light.
Jay

[Bill Mercer]

Howdy,



With guideboats ... I am from Australia ... so excuse my ignorance and my antipodean spelling. Were they designed for Rivers and Lakes?

The biggest difference between rivers and lakes and harbours ... is wind - sea breezes tend to be somewhat emphatic. Lakes can have adiabatic winds which are just as nasty.

This brings in the other point. While Cornish gigs and Dories may be seaworthy in similar conditions (um ... didn't the gigs back into the beach? Can't quite remember) a guideboat might be seaworthy in a reed lined lake
... but quite different in S.F. harbour
(see ... antipodean spelling again!!)

Best wishes
Michael Storer

Well that top photo is from the Blackburn Challenge during a bad year--a 20 mile open water rowing/paddling race around Cape Anne, Massachusetts. Even in good conditions it's not called a 'challenge' for nothing. The three bottom photos are from the Port Townsend wooden boat festival a few years ago. . . I was there that year, and the conditions were horrific, one boat dragged anchors and ended up on the beach, wind was 35 knots+ down at sea level, waves looked way bigger than they do in the photos. Apparently the guideboats handled the conditions fine. I'd expect that the tall stems have some windage, but apparently you can still make time time to windward. The boats were developed on mountain lakes with changeable and sometimes dangerous weather conditions.

[Bill Mercer]

All that said, I've sailed on SF bay, and I think I'd stick close to shore in a rowing boat. Wouldn't hesitate to go out, but the one time I was sailing there, some of the stuff we pounded through to windward. . . Wow! I'm sure a well-handled guideboat (or Cornish gig, or Herreshoff rowboat) could handle it, but you'd get wet, and if you caught a good current on the wrong tide you might end up in the Farallones.

[Thorne]

Well I've certainly had my share of trips back to the marina at the end of a tow rope == usually in small sailboats, not pulling boats, but it can be really hard to predict the weather and winds on SF Bay.

And of course what is exhilarating fun for you may seem terrifyingly stupid to the other person in the boat == "Don't ask me how I know this"...

;0 )

[skuthorp]

Quote Thorne: "a boat that can be loaded under perfect conditions may prove dangerous to load/unload under normal SF Bay conditions -- like 35 knot gusts every summer afternoon."
I used to cartop my Macgreggor, I could just manage it alone but if I'd injured myself........ These days I use a lightweight trailer. There are commercially made units to load boats on cars. from this;
http://loadit.com/Flash.html
to this; http://www.boathoist.com.au/
and this; http://www.rhinorack.com.au/AccSubCategory_Side-Boat-Loader_52.aspx
I plan a home made adaption of the Rhino one. You just need something to improve the leverage above say chest height.

[seasnail]

How about taking a Bolger sweet pea and stretching it to 18' while keeping the beam the same? The hull looks like a gunning dory to me, and when I stretch it out in a paint program it looks very nice. It doesn't look at all distorted and the proportions remind me of Iain Oughtred's John Dory (with the exception of the transom and the extra chine). Just gotta get the data into hull designer.....

John Dory:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/aa65f986e2.jpg




Stretched Pea:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/44e40851c9.jpg

[TerryLL]

Oughtred's John Dory is a very capable boat for one or two rowers. At 18' and about 225 pounds it would need a trailer. It's an easy build, even for a first-time builder, and can be built as row-only or as row-and-sail. The one I built (below) had three rowing stations. The middle station for a single rower, and the fore and aft stations when rowing double.


http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/johndory.jpg

[seasnail]

So, no one is going to complain about a stretched bolger peapod? If that's the case then I'll probably go with the sweet pea.

[AngWood]

Umiak.

[Tom Hunter]

I've rowed guideboats, light dories, whitehalls, and my own boat. Paul (in the rough water guideboat photo) used to regularly kick my ass in open water races when I did them 10 years ago.

The Peapod is likely a good choice. The guideboats are wonderful alone, but I have been out with a second person on board and prefer calm waters that heavily loaded. Car topping is an issue.

May I suggest that you look around for a "working man's yacht club" I found one in the Boston area with dues of a couple of hundred dollars, worth every penny just for the storage alone.

[Jay Greer]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8cc20b3127ccec5975e2968ee00000040O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
Here is the boat I mentioned. Feather is safe dry and fast! It is double banked with sliding seats and folding, outrigger rowlocks.
Jay

[StevenBauer]

What a gorgeous stern on that boat behind feather!

Have you considered a faering, Snaily? I built Iain Oughtred's Elf with my son and she rows great with two. Iain plays in the surf with his. :eek: I've cartopped it up to the Small Reach Regatta in Brooklin, The larger Elffyn woud be even more capable but you'd never get it on top of your car. Joel White's Shearwater is similar.


Steven

[Thorne]

Tom's idea is a good one if you must have more boat than you can store or transport.

Either the Aeolian YC in Alameda or Point San Pablo YC are good working man's YC's.

The former is a hotbed of TSCA folks including the Commodore -
http://www.aeolianyc.com/

http://www.pspyc.org/

[Zane Lewis]

Hi Seasnail,
Listen to John Welsford he designs from experiance. I was going to suggest you look at his book "Backyard Boatbuilder" and his web site. It has a good section on Recreational Rowing.
Re Car Topping. I have a 1 off 17'6" Welsford rowing boat that I can car top on my own and carry on my back down to the water. Not easily but it can be done.

One Comment Re John's boats. Often they are designed / build with a focus in mind, ie a light rowing boat will be light. This means that you will be able to car top it and while you will never break it in normal use don't go surfing into a rock as you come into the beach as you may damage things.
I'm going to add a skin of dynal or similar up the first 2 planks on mine as I tend to be a little rougher in my usage

http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Rowing/th_PICT0014.jpg http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Rowing/th_PICT0009.jpg http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Rowing/th_PICT0006.jpg http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Rowing/th_PICT0005.jpg


I suspect that if you want to be on the water quickly a number of Johns designs would work for you.
Seagull 15'3" x 4' x 93 lb. Not too high and extra width aft for a passenger.
The Light Dory He meantion before is 16'10"x4'2"x93 lb but narrow on the bottom and much shorter on the water line.
Somewhere between these 2 is Joansa 15'6", 3'10" 80 lb.
Zane

[davebrown]

can we get a little more info on Feather? also, if i am not jammed up too bad between now and dec. 18, you could go out with me in one of our club boats. it'll open your eyes. send me an E if interested. davebrown63@yahoo.com

[JEM]

Hi Seasnail,
Listen to John Welsford he designs from experiance. I was going to suggest you look at his book "Backyard Boatbuilder" and his web site. It has a good section on Recreational Rowing.
Re Car Topping. I have a 1 off 17'6" Welsford rowing boat that I can car top on my own and carry on my back down to the water. Not easily but it can be done.

One Comment Re John's boats. Often they are designed / build with a focus in mind, ie a light rowing boat will be light. This means that you will be able to car top it and while you will never break it in normal use don't go surfing into a rock as you come into the beach as you may damage things.
I'm going to add a skin of dynal or similar up the first 2 planks on mine as I tend to be a little rougher in my usage

http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Rowing/th_PICT0014.jpg http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Rowing/th_PICT0009.jpg http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Rowing/th_PICT0006.jpg http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/zqlewis/Rowing/th_PICT0005.jpg




Zane,

Which model is that in your pictures? Yorkshire Coble?

[neilm]

http://neilmoomey.com/temp/2008-09-23_Ugak_Bay/IMG_1796.JPG

My CLC Skerry is only 15ft long and it's very seaworthy. It's basically a Gunning Dory. It weighs 100lbs and I cartop it myself using 2x6 ramps off the side of my van and dowels inserted into holes every 18". I just walk it up the ramp. I've been in plenty of whitecaps and windy weather. I figured out (the hardway) I will run out of strength to row the boat into the wind long before seaworthiness becomes an issue especially if I put some sandbags or rocks in for ballast. I rowed 6 miles out to an island in 1 hour 45 minutes at a relaxing pace. I clamp an 8" curved mirror to the stern so I can see where I'm going. It works great.

As far as bad weather goes. I used to tell my friends "There is no such thing as bad weather only bad clothing." Well, this is my first Winter here and I will admit I was wrong. There is such a thing as bad weather and you can find it on Kodiak Island.

Neil

[AngWood]

Umiak. Just putting it out there. You know, one of those big, robust skin-on-frame row boats from the Arctic. Basically build one any size you like. Even a fairly sizable one would be cartoppable.

[sailing canoe]

Does any one have an opinion on joel White's Bangor Packet for this use?

[davebrown]

i also have a skerry. love it as a single, not too good for double oars.

[Zane Lewis]

Hi JEM,
She's a Deal Huff Boat by John Welsford, An interpretation of the the rowing boats of Deal of the English Channel.
The attached link will take you to some info on this one. I don't think John has a set of commercial plans for this one but ask him if you are interested.
by the way she 16'8" so I overestimated anyway.

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Boats/BoatDealHuff/HuffBoat.html

Zane

[seasnail]

Thanks again for all the great ideas!

I've become somewhat invested in the construction of a stretched Bolger "Sweet Pea." I like it because its still fairly simple, has a seaworthy shape and has tons of reserve buoyancy (and no one complained).

The design was entered into hulls and stretched from 15 feet to 18 feet and retains the 4'4" beam. I had to reduce the rocker by 16% to get the hull to sit on its lines again, I also raised the second chine and the sheer by the same amount. The hull will be decked and the "cockpit" will be a 2ft by ~10ft hole, much like the original Bolger design. I'm currently nesting the panels in corel draw.

I'm going to cnc the panels from 6mm hydrotek bs 1088 (9mm for the bottom) and then stitch and glue the parts with epoxy/tape.

Here's some pics from hull designer:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/0c6b6aa035.jpg


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/44b86bec30.jpg


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/61d97fa127.jpg


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/c6ea0e09d8.jpg

[JEM]

Nice, simple, clean design. Well done. What's her displacements at various waterlines? That will make or break a design for an individual rower....if it drafts just the right amount(s) of water.

[seasnail]

What's her displacements at various waterlines? That will make or break a design for an individual rower....if it drafts just the right amount(s) of water.


I'm still not sure about this part. I was guessing that when I row the boat alone the bottom panel should just barely be submerged, that way I can take advantage of the full waterline length. Perhaps it should sit higher? If anyone has any better ideas please let me know.

I'm guessing the boat will weigh 150lbs, and oars will be 6 lb apiece. with that in mind here's some combinations:

Me + boat + 2 oars, 388 lb:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/ca05aaa3e3.jpg

150lb person + boat + oars, 312 lb:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5e577441bc.jpg

350lb Crew + 4 oars + boat, 550 lb:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d4188ffef7.jpg

350 lb crew + 4 oars + boat + 50 lbs of beer, 600 lb:


http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/347f40c026.jpg

900 lbs brings her down to the second chine:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e002e0e7b7.jpg

[JEM]

Nice work. She should handle nicely.

[peterAustralia]

hi

Seems you have a pretty good idea of what you want. I like the idea of building the boat light and adding weight in terms of ballast. I do that in my boat. 4'4" beam, sounds OK. My banks dory is 4ft beam and too narrow for the ideal. Could I ask you most nicely to post a topview image.

If you are an experienced boat builder then do not listen to this, but when I built my boat I found some interior framing useful. I am talking light framing, one inch square for frames, one inch x 0.5 inch for gunnel and inwale (should have been 2 x 0.5), plus a little light framing for keel and keelson. In particular, having a strip of timber going lengthwise so as to have something to place the thwarts on would in retrospect have been very useful to me.... just my opinion..

The main point is that you seem to be going in the right direction, with simple multiple chines, and a beam about right. 9mm for floor sounds good. I used 4mm for sides but then I had framing, so without framing 6mm sounds better.

[peterAustralia]

hi

Just a little query, I see you intend going down the route of small cockpit instead of open boat. I have no issues with decking the front and rear 4ft of boat.

When it comes to the center, I am a little worried that you will not be able to raise your oar by depressing the oar end (hand grip) into the boat. Additionally I wonder where you would stow your oars out of the way when you are not using them. How much freeboard do you have at varying displacements.

[davebrown]

was sweat pea a bolger design? i am asking only because bolger himself might be interested. although i do recall reading a while back that he was not doing any designs right now. before any gets offended about this, let me repeat i remember reading that--i might not be right.

[seasnail]

hi

Seems you have a pretty good idea of what you want. I like the idea of building the boat light and adding weight in terms of ballast. I do that in my boat. 4'4" beam, sounds OK. My banks dory is 4ft beam and too narrow for the ideal. Could I ask you most nicely to post a topview image.



Peter,

The beam on the waterline is 36" vs 32" for your dory. I'm guessing this design should also gain stability much more rapidly as it heels than the little sister because of the angle of the second panel.

Here's the overhead, the lines outside to inside (at widest point) are the gunwale, deck edge, second chine, waterline, first chine. The deck is only accurate between the bulkheads:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/df196b88f9.jpg


When it comes to the center, I am a little worried that you will not be able to raise your oar by depressing the oar end (hand grip) into the boat. Additionally I wonder where you would stow your oars out of the way when you are not using them. How much freeboard do you have at varying displacements.

Minimum freeboard is ~12 inches at 400lb displacement and 10.5 inches at 600lb.

The deck is 3" below the gunwale and the seats will probably sit 2" inches below the deck. The oarlock will probably sit an inch above the gunwale, which gives me a total height of 6" from seat/thwart to oarlock (assuming the oarlock is located on the lowest point on the gunwale).

The seats will be movable and will hang off the edge of the deck like so:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/61267a1fe6.jpg
Its hard to tell on the plans (I only have the little plans in a book, not full size ones) but I think this is very close to the setup bolger drew.

The oars will fit in the bottom of the boat, Although I'm not so sure this is the best place for them. Maybe I'll make some hangers or something.

[seasnail]

was sweat pea a bolger design?



Yep, I got it from a book of bolger's plans.

[sailing canoe]

I can see you are not waisting any time! Which program are you using?

[seasnail]

I can see you are not waisting any time! Which program are you using?


Carlson Hull Designer.

Its free and its really easy to use, I'm basically CAD illiterate and I was able to make the hull in a few hours. The only confusing thing is that there is no provision for making a deck that does not line up with the sheer. I made the flat deck by making the boat 5 chines, the 4th chine is the inside of the hull (above the deck) and the 5th chines make up each half of the deck.

[peterAustralia]

hi

Thanks for quick reply, I guess it is late at night there, whilst is midday here. Just my 2 cents worth... the ends look very fine... possibly they could be a bit fuller?

Freeboard, guess it is less of an issue if you have heaps of flotation, for an estimate of displacement I would assume a minimum of 500lb. I use metric, and 75kg for crew x 2, plus 75kg for boat = 225kg = 495 pounds. On my dory I have 70kg water ballast as a minimum, thus I assume if you are going out solo in a bit rough water you would add ballast as same weight as other rower.

So my estimate for realistic displacement in rough water will be between 500 and 600 pounds. The question you then have to ask yourself is what is appropriate freeboard at this weight - 11inches - 12 inches?

Will you be adding a rudder?... all in all it looks pretty good! Is very hard to find things to fault with your plans!

[Rick-Mi]

http://neilmoomey.com/temp/2008-09-23_Ugak_Bay/IMG_1796.JPG

My CLC Skerry is only 15ft long and it's very seaworthy. It's basically a Gunning Dory. It weighs 100lbs and I cartop it myself using 2x6 ramps off the side of my van and dowels inserted into holes every 18". I just walk it up the ramp. I've been in plenty of whitecaps and windy weather. I figured out (the hardway) I will run out of strength to row the boat into the wind long before seaworthiness becomes an issue especially if I put some sandbags or rocks in for ballast. I rowed 6 miles out to an island in 1 hour 45 minutes at a relaxing pace. I clamp an 8" curved mirror to the stern so I can see where I'm going. It works great.

As far as bad weather goes. I used to tell my friends "There is no such thing as bad weather only bad clothing." Well, this is my first Winter here and I will admit I was wrong. There is such a thing as bad weather and you can find it on Kodiak Island.




Very cool boat Neil! The weight and fact that it can be cartopped by one person is a real advantage of the design. I know what you mean about running out of rowing power before seaworthiness. I've been there, done that and don't like the feeling. That's why I cheated and added a motor well to my 18 ft grand banks dory. ;)

BTW when searching google for information about a skerry I came across this personal building narrative that is pretty interesting.

http://www.get-outside.com/skerry/skerry.htm

[seasnail]

hi
the ends look very fine... possibly they could be a bit fuller?

The question you then have to ask yourself is what is appropriate freeboard at this weight - 11inches - 12 inches?

Will you be adding a rudder?... all in all it looks pretty good! Is very hard to find things to fault with your plans!

Yeah, I have no idea whether the ends are too fine or not fine enough. In an earlier post I compared the stretched Bolger Pea to an Ian Oughtred design and they look almost identical from above, so that's good enough for me.

As for the right amount of freeboard, your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps someone else would like to comment?

I'm skipping the rudder and the skeg. If the boat doesn't track I may add something later.

[Steve Paskey]

oh, and as an afterthought, the pacific troller (i think that was the 16 ft'er) looks to be a good combination of rough weather ability and lightweight. i still wouldn't want to cartop it.

There was some discussion earlier about Paul Butler's PACIFIC TROLLER, a 16-foot version of his gunning dory. In case anyone's interested, I've discovered that he just listed the prototype on Craigslist.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/946176825.html

Pics of the boat are here:

http://www.butlerprojects.com/boats/pacific/index.htm

[Clinton B Chase]

I think a dory is the best way here, and Oughtred's John Dory would work well for 2 in open water. Another way would be a faering, as Steven mentions. Gartsides Flashboat probably won't have the capacity for two. Gartsides surfboat/dory would.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catrow2.php#154

See 20' surf dory.

For two and a little gear the boat needs to have the capacity. Shearwater by J. White wouldn't have that capacity but the Shearwater 18 would.

A Gunning Dory would be great. If you are rowing in cross winds often, a boat with a strong keel is good. Perhaps a 18+ foot whitehall type, but they were designed for somewhat protected waters of NYC harbor and the like. A peapod is a thought. Dories, 'pods, Faerings all boats designed to keep a fisherman or two and some gear safe and alive in tough conditions. We have an Oughtred J. Dory at Compass and it is great, but like many dories, the cross breeze situation can be tough and the right trim and load placement will solve some of that. I think a Faering may be ideal for SF Bay. There is a video of a guy rowing around The Horn in a Faering. Search on you tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dGJrxxUhA

[PeterSibley]

This is an excellent thread , I've been enjoying the diversity of views .

A question ,how would a stretched ( or even standard ) Doug Hylan Beach Pea fit ?This is for me , not the original parameters .It's a lovely boat in every respect ,if a bit of work to build .Is it heavy enough to be a good serious rowing boat ?

Please excuse the diversion from the main thread .:)

[TerryLL]

Is it heavy enough to be a good serious rowing boat ?:)

I think Peter hit the nail on the head with this question. We've all been suggesting designs that are capable two-person rowing boats. The designs mentioned above are all very similar, most are double-enders, peapods, surf dories, gunning dories, faerings, and skerries.

But the boat must be light enough to cartop. Or so says the original poster.

Is it really a good idea to go that light? Will it still be a serious rowing boat?

[peterAustralia]

This weight issue

Light boat, my 18 x 4ft dory, is 70kg. A traditional boat more than twice as much. Can a lightweight boat be treated seriously and if not what is weight needed for anyway?

Is it for structural reasons? I would not think so, example see the Umiak, plenty strong, able to survive the Artic without heavy planking, for strength it relies on modest well designed framing. Conclusion, a boat with similar framing to a umiak but made of light ply, say 9mm and 6mm will structurally be strong enough.

Abrasian resitstance. theseadays with fiberglass and epoxy resin, the need for extra thick bottoms to safeguard against rocks is slightly less an issue due to these modern materials

Motion in a sea, yes weight is needed here. I carry a minimum 70kg and could do with more when rowing. But this can be added as removable ballast. It does not in my opinion need to be inbuilt into the hull. If a lightweight rowboat cannot be treated serioulsy, then where does this put the umiak, a toy for protected waters only?

Conclusion a lightweight boat with weight added as ballast is a reasonable propostion.

[Clinton B Chase]

Must cartop? Oughtred Mackerel would be perfect then. Very seaworthy, light and car toppable by two strong people.

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery.php?KID=32&PHPSESSID=1642eaea04426e0f1078b477a869ffb7

We built one and rowed it a bunch. I'd feel comfortable taking it out into most any conditions. You'd have to stretch it a foot or so and modify the seating for rowing with two, which we did.

Clint

[Thorne]

Clinton -

What's come up quite a bit on this thread is that for "real" doubles rowing, i.e. a boat designed to operate well with two fixed-seat rowers pulling hard, you need a lot more boat than just stretching a single-seat boat a few feet.

Because rowing involves a lot of upper body weight being tossed fore and aft, you get pitching problems if the reserve buoyancy / beam in the hull isn't enough to counter that.

This problem is much smaller or non-existent for canoes or doubles kayaks, as paddling really doesn't produce the pitching hardly at all -- and I think that this perspective is confusing the issue. Many of us are used to canoes that can be paddled single or double with no real issues -- but pulling boats are a different can o' worms.

Seasnail hasn't answered a critical question yet -- what is the length of his Honda CRV? He really can't overhang the ends of that vehicle by more than about 3' without risking accidents even when the ends are flagged. Plus the boat may have to be built a bit differently to handle high-speed cartopping if it has large overhangs...

I'll repeat my earlier suggestion - the only "boat" that meets ALL his requirements is actually two sea kayaks on top of his Honda.

With his evident skill and interest in hull designing, I'd say he should go for it and work up a boat to meet every one of his requirements -- except that of cartopping. He'll learn new things about naval design work and have a boat he can be proud of every time he trailer-launches it on the Bay.

[kenjamin]

The goals for the design could be met if it were a catamaran but not your normal, everyday catamaran. Two lightweight slab-sided dory hulls could do the job. The big problem is not cartopping the dory hulls but putting the pieces together after you get them down off the roof. I was watching bull riding the other night and I noticed that they wear big, robust-looking, velcro belts. I can't help but wonder if a system could be designed where the fit is such that all normal stresses are handled by the way the pieces fit together and the velcro fasteners are only responsible for the final lock-down. I have yet to see one of those bulls bust a rider out of his belt. They must be mighty strong. An added advantage of a lightweight double dory is that stability would be available to step a mast at sea. A crew of two could row in the early morning glassy conditions and set sail later when the wind kicks up. With a wide flat deck, a double dory catamaran could set a standard 8' x 8' dome tent for camping. It might be worth a try and heck, I already have the perfect mast for it!:D

[seasnail]

Seasnail hasn't answered a critical question yet -- what is the length of his Honda CRV? He really can't overhang the ends of that vehicle by more than about 3' without risking accidents even when the ends are flagged. Plus the boat may have to be built a bit differently to handle high-speed cartopping if it has large overhangs...

Funny, I was just looking into this. I just assumed I could legally carry the boat but I didn't check the law until now. My CR-V is 14.8 feet long, same as any other late nineties CR-V.

What's more important is the law regarding overhangs. California vehicle code states you are allowed 3ft of overhang past the front bumper and a distance past the rear taillights equal to 2/3 the vehicle wheelbase. The CR-V has a 103" wheelbase, So that means I am allowed 68.7 inches of rear overhang or 5.7 feet!

The longest boat that can legally be carried by the CR-V is (front overhang)+(dist bet. front bumper and rear taillight)+(2/3*wheelbase) = 3ft + 13.54ft +5.72 ft = 22.26 ft.

In addition you are allowed up to 4ft of rear overhang without a red flag meaning I can have a maximum boat length of 20.5 feet without even having a flag on the back. All of this info is here:

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/trucks/trucksize/overhang.htm

The roof on the cr-v is 7 ft long, so for my 18ft boat I can center the boat on the roof and have 4.5 feet overhang from the front and rear of the roof. I could also have 5ft overhang past the front of the roof and 4ft on the rear to avoid the flag.

You are right that this may not be safe even though I'll be operating within the law.


With his evident skill and interest in hull designing, I'd say he should go for it and work up a boat to meet every one of his requirements -- except that of cartopping. He'll learn new things about naval design work and have a boat he can be proud of every time he trailer-launches it on the Bay.

The only reason I modeled the hull in hull designer is because I don't want to loft the panels! I have free access to a CNC machine that cuts 4x8 sheets. I figured it would be easier to loft the boat in the computer and have the machine cut it out than to loft it in by hand and cut it with a saw. Perhaps I will design my next boat, but right now I'm trying to follow the K.I.S.S. philosophy. I fear if I design my own boat from scratch it will never get done.

[neilm]

Your stretched Sweet Pea looks great! Makes me want to build one.

As for weight, I desire as light and strong a boat as possible. I bring a sawed off shovel and sandbags for ballast. Large rocks work too. The idea that a boat can be too light is silly. Just add balast. This assumes it's plenty strong. If your going to cartop it stay under 100 lbs. You might consider cane seats and inflatable bags or Styrofoam for flotation. Avoid stems too. My Skerry has no stem. Don't skimp on the rails. Use White Oak (oiled). Mine is varnished mahogany and they are scratched up badly. I've sanded and revarnished them twice this year alone. Never again on a cartopper.

Neil

[davebrown]

i notice mention of the shearwater 18, by white...that would be your perfect boat. are plans out there on the shrwtr 18?
but i am impressed by your quick design here. .

[sailing canoe]

I have heard from a builder of the enlarged shearwater that the plans are only Known as Plan #150. Bill Doll ,curator of the small craft collection at SF maritime museum, has one he built. The profile is very similar to the one you have drawn.

[Wiley Baggins]

Here is an interesting option. It may not quite meet your (seasnail's) wants, but it is pertinent to the broader discussion. I don't know much about these boats beyond what can be found online. The link is for a modern stitch-and-glue interpretation, but traditional models are also available at the same site and a linked site.

Brightsides: http://westlakeboats.ca/plans/Brightsides.htm

Traditional Plans: http://westlakeboats.ca/plans/heritage.htm

Westlake Boats: http://westlakeboats.ca/

[smcafee]

What a good question. I have had an 18 ft dory (converted to gaff sloop with iron centerboard, that I sailed on the bay occasionally, but it was very tender. It was great in the more sheltered waters, like Foster City and Redwood City harbour. I know you asked about a row boat though. Having been dumped in the drink a couple times by my 7 ft dingy, I would be careful in that cold water. I would recommend the designs by John Welsford. They have floatation, and some are pretty wide. Found here. http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/
Cheers

[seasnail]

The idea that a boat can be too light is silly. Just add balast. This assumes it's plenty strong. If your going to cartop it stay under 100 lbs. You might consider cane seats and inflatable bags or Styrofoam for flotation.



Agreed.



You might consider cane seats and inflatable bags or Styrofoam for flotation.

Don't skimp on the rails. Use White Oak (oiled). Mine is varnished mahogany and they are scratched up badly.



These are great ideas.

BTW, your skerry is gorgeous.

[seasnail]

I'm looking at the nested parts for the stretched pea and I noticed I could increase the height of either of the chines by up to ~two inches, thus increasing the freeboard by up to two inches.

Does anyone think this boat needs more freeboard along the sheer at any given point? Now would be the time to add it =)

Also, I haven't tried very hard, but I can find any info on the shearwater 18. Anyone have any specs/pics?

[Clinton B Chase]

seasnail I have the plans for the Shearwater 18. FWIW, the owner of the one boat that I know of says it sails better than it rows.

the boat is 18 loa, 4'6" beam has decent freeboard. Pics will be hard to come by. I've seen it and from what I've seen of your interests, you would like the look. A cross between a faering and a dory, more dory. Gunning-ish. I have the plans. Got them from Brooklin Boatyard.

Cheers,
Clint

[seasnail]

found a shearwater 16 here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Maf4G6kjzKkC&pg=PA28&dq=shearwater+boat#PPA28,M1

[sailing canoe]

Hi all; I tried to post a picture of the Shearwater 18 here but this site wouldn't let me so its here
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/designing-fast-rowboat-14250-29.html#post242446
Check it out. Let me know if you want more. Thorn will know the boat.