suggestions for a small off the beach sailing/fishing boat

[hansp77]

I have had an itch for a long time to build a little boat to go sailing and fishing from my partners family beach house, and I want to start looking into some designs.
I am about to move house, will hopefully be getting a decent workshop space, and might have the chance to take on the project.
Aesthetically I am drawn to the dory/skiff type boats, but beyond that I am really open to suggestions.
Appologies for not knowing much, but really I don't know where to start.

criteria/wants/needs
easyish build, preferably ply wood, (yet I would still like it to be georgious)
carryable/launchable by two people (can't get trailer access to our beach- though it would be wheeled/driven down to the carpark on a trailer),
crew 2 people comfortable, 3 possible in calm conditions (maybe even 4 people squeezed in if someone wants to swim out from the shore to climb aboard and fish- don't laugh, we do it on the inflatable:D)
simple (slightly underpowered) sailing rig, rowable,
doesn't need to be a speed performer, but would be nice to be able to point just a little into the wind,
size?- (unknown, to be determined by needs, >10ft, <20ft, but really as storage space will be an issue the shorter the better)
stable and 'beachworthy' (I won't dare say seaworthy)
I would like to be able to build in some flotation (styrofoam boxed under seats if it comes to it), and it would be preferable to have it rightable by one person,
where it would be used?
foremost here (and mostly in these type of conditions)(btw, thats me and a friend out there in the inflatable;))
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t304/hansp77/IMGP2379.jpg
(Wye River) a pretty sheltered little bay, and would only really be used in good conditions. Technically this is open (sheltered) ocean, but basically it would be used to sail within swimming distance hugging the local coastline here. Pretty tame, but I would like a little 'seaworthyness in spare' (doh I said it:o). This place really doesn't ever get much swell (always have to drive somewhere to go surfing) but it can get pretty windy and gusty.
Secondary use would be to trailer it and use it in other sheltered areas, maybe motor up a river or two, lakes, sheltered bays, etc. Also of course, if I bring it back to melbourne, I could ditch the tinny under the jetty and use it as a tender to get out to Altair.
My main concern for seaworthyness is to be able to row, motor or sail out through small waves, and make it back in, without getting swamped or capsizing.


Basically I want a nice little-ish boat that I can build reasonably cheaply and quickish(:rolleyes:) to take out the back, sail around, handle 2-3ft waves, catch a little sun and haul in some King George Whiting.

If I am being unrealistic, stupidly optimistic, haven't given enough details, etc, etc, just let me know.

My skill level is really pretty basic, and probably stronger in theory rather than practice from having 'wasted' so much time reading here. I have rebuilt the entire deck, cabin top, patched my hull, and done a thousand other little things on my 30ft Van De Stadt, but have never built any boat from scratch. I learn quick, have most of the tools I would need, but would rather this be more achievable than take on a big long project with a steep long learning curve. I just want to get out there on the water in it (I have my big boat to toil at endlessly, I don't need another).

So, thanks in advance for any suggestions, and links and particularly pictures are most appreciated.

Hans.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Hi Hans, I think your fellow Aussie designer's Goat Island Skiff meets your spec very well. Especially in the "light enough to carry" and "quickish build" you specified.

This group of youngsters have just launched their Goat Island Skiff after a twenty day build!

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=85692
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Xsp3ZzvBrWw/SULFS3JFjbI/AAAAAAAAAR4/2lAtoJ7LJcI/s640/IMG_2198.JPG

http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hm6GxO50VYk&eurl=http://www.storerboatplans.com/video.html
http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GoatJohnsBoat1.jpg


Brian

[MiddleAgesMan]

I'll second the Goat:

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w168/MiddleAgesMan/GoatIslandSkiff113.jpg

I had just brought this one out of my second floor boat shop to set it on her trailer. That's some cardboard taped to the starboard gunwale temporarily added to protect the rail so I could slide it out the door on her side.

[hansp77]

thanks guys,
this could just be one of the shortest threads of its type...:D the more I look into it, the more I like it. Just about fits the bill perfectly.:cool:

[TerryLL]

Hans,

Launching and retrieving through the surf puts particular demands on a hull. Surf boats have evolved in lots of places around the world, and they all look pretty much the same. They're usually double-enders, or virtual double-enders like some of the dories. They have very cut-away fore foots so they don't bow-steer coming down a wave face. And they have pronounced sheer to prevent the bow and stern from going under.

The Goat Island Skiff is a dandy little boat and easy to build, but it is not a surf boat.

A gunning dory or a surf dory would be my choice. Lots of first-time builders have put these together. Find a copy of Building Classic Small Craft by John Gardner for plans and building instructions. The Dory Book (same author) will provide lots of advice on how to build them.

[hansp77]

Thanks Terry,
its about that time of the year where I need to be putting in my santa requests- and those two books, that I have already heard mentioned a lot, might be a good place to start.

From the last couple of hours reading about it, I do really like the sound of the GIS,
however, coming in with the waves is one of my big concerns.
Nothing will be decided for quite a while yet of course.
G'night

[Thad Van Gilder]

My brothers and I have a Van Duyne lifeguard boat that we rutinely launch throught the south jersey surf (4 to 6 foot breakers average),

Ours is splashed off a Van Sant wood lifeguard boat from the 50's (or so the story goes). Perhaps linesare available somewhere.

-Thad

[BarnacleGrim]

http://www.dixdesign.com/argie155.jpg

Argie 15 (http://www.dixdesign.com/argie15.htm)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS7KcuQLQBo

[kenjamin]

Check out these stitch and glue designs by Ross Lillistone:

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/PhoenixIII.jpg

http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/

[marksteele]

We've got a design you might be interested in 'Venture Hulls Canada is
developing a little monohull sail , that is a new design incorporating a
unique construction . It's 3 plates of material - either plywood , or plexi-glass , or sheet metal.It's our propietary design , and since we're seeking a
patent on it , we keep it pretty close to the vest. markalfredsteele@yahoo.ca

[Thorne]

Your problem is that you are looking for a boat to do too many things all at once -- I doubt there is one design that will meet all your requirements.

You may need to use strip construction to meet both the size and lightweight requirements.

Hull design is another problem, as few surf boats can also take an outboard on the transom -- they are usually double-enders or have heavily raked transoms for the surf

Sailing puts another set of difficult demands on the design, but should be do-able if you stick to short masts so the rig fits inside the boat when lauching / landing through the surf.

The only two boats that I've had any direct experience with that were designed for the surf are the Chamberlain dory skiff and the Jersey skiff, but have never launched either through surf.

Could you pass on the outboard when using the boat in the surf? That would allow you to use a side-mount for the outboard when trailer-launching the boat on rivers, but keep the boat light for the surf.

[David G]

Your problem is that you are looking for a boat to do too many things all at once -- I doubt there is one design that will meet all your requirements.

You may need to use strip construction to meet both the size and lightweight requirements.

Hull design is another problem, as few surf boats can also take an outboard on the transom -- they are usually double-enders or have heavily raked transoms for the surf

Sailing puts another set of difficult demands on the design, but should be do-able if you stick to short masts so the rig fits inside the boat when lauching / landing through the surf.

The only two boats that I've had any direct experience with that were designed for the surf are the Chamberlain dory skiff and the Jersey skiff, but have never launched either through surf.

Could you pass on the outboard when using the boat in the surf? That would allow you to use a side-mount for the outboard when trailer-launching the boat on rivers, but keep the boat light for the surf.

As is so often the case, my smarter twin has cut to the core of the matter.

I could recommend some designs that are great for launching & retreiving through the surf. They won't be light enough to carry down to the water. I crewed a bit on a couple of them - fishing commercially for salmon. Dory hulls with motor wells and room for two men and the catch.

As the first builder of a Goat Island Skiff in the Americas, I can heartily second the Goat for all of your design requirements except maybe launching through the surf. I've launched ours through the surf, rowing. The surf at Cannon Beach was a bit rougher than your foto. The first couple of times I tried, I capsized. Spent a lot of time hauling it back to the beach, bailing it out enough, then flipping it up on its side to dump the rest of the ocean out. On my third or fourth attempt, I made it out through the breakers. Coming in was even more of an adventure. Capsized again, and thought I was gonna break the boat. I was concerned enough about crumpling our light little speedster into a wad that I never tried that again. I certainly wouldn't try it with an outboard, though it'd be easier to power through the waves outbound, and keep it ahead of breaking waves while inbound. However, I really don't want to face the damage, mess, repair of the outboard if/when it gets dunked in salt water.

Maybe your conditions are enough milder that you wouldn't have the same problems. I don't really know. It's certainly possible. The day I was messing about, I had the sense that - with a bit more experience, and a touch milder conditions - I'd have been ok.

I'm thinking maybe a glued plywood lapstrake double ender (for lightness) with a motor well (motor carried down to the water seperately). But no designs are springing to mind. Anyone else? Something from Oughtred maybe?


"Research is the process of going up alleys to see if they are blind" -- Marston Bates

[Thad Van Gilder]

I really don't think its possible to launch or land a small boat through the surf with an outboard.... maybe row through the breakers and then start the outboard?



-Thad

[Thorne]

You've hit the nail on the head, Twin!

One primary issue is that the boat most commonly used for launching/landing through surf is what he's already got - an inflatable with small outboard. There are a LOT of reasons why these boats are used for this function, which not being expert at, I won't attempt to list.

He might end up building a GIS for all other uses, and keep the inflatable for the surf.

[keyhavenpotterer]

keep the Goat in the frame I would say, and perhaps have a look at Gavin Atkins Light Trow and Iain Oughtred's beach cruisers.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iSEnqWXgT3E/RYPj7m8D1jI/AAAAAAAAAAY/S_XzLijbh_c/s1600/rig.gif

The Invisible Workshop documents building and sailing off the beach.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NtMspRhbKGw&eurl=http://theinvisibleworkshop.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00:00:00Z&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3

Iain Oughtred's double enders would be a classic choice for beach cruising but most are not for carrying down to the beach and would be a much longer build. His Skerrieskiff is light, a quicker build, flat bottom for sitting on the beach. These shapes are very tender though compared to Light Trow or Goat. Theoretically great for surf but really easy to dip a rail when sailing and scoop up a lot of water.

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/Skerrieskiff%2015%20&%2017.pdf

http://www.bootbouwer.nl/oughtredill/skerrieskiff17-D.jpg

http://www.bootbouwer.nl/oughtredill/skerrieskiff17-01.jpg

Brian

[JimD]

I like the full battens on the sail. Very much like a junk rig only without all the sheetlets. Any comparative reports on how it performs? Reefs?

http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GoatJohnsBoat1.jpg

[Chip-skiff]

On the west coast of Baja California, I watched fishermen launch and beach their skiffs (called pangas) in a pretty hairy beach-break. The boats were f-glass, heavily-built, 18-24 ft. They had big outboards and would blast out through the waves. Coming in with a catch, they'd time it so they could catch a wave and surf up on the beach, tipping the outboard up at the critical instant. Someone would dash down the beach with a hook on a winch cable (from a truck parked above the tideline) and hook the bow eye. Then they'd try to get the boat hauled up before the next wave hit.

Pretty entertaining to watch. But not exactly easy. Didn't see any spills, but there were a few near-misses.

Looking at the photo of your beach (great spot) I wonder if some time spent looking down from the slope might reveal lanes where the waves are smaller— better for getting out. Before starting a build, you ought to give it a go in something similar.

[JimD]

... I watched fishermen launch and beach their skiffs (called pangas) in a pretty hairy beach-break...

Sounds like the various surf dorys.


http://www.northwestmagazines.com/images/dory_beached.jpg


http://www.northwestmagazines.com/images/dory_sand.jpg





http://www.northwestmagazines.com/images/dory_surf.jpg

[johnw]

You might look at the Shearwater, plans available from our sponsor.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400058.jpg

And keep the rubber duck for use with the outboard.

[johnw]

Or you might think about the Whilly Boat, same source.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400104.jpg

[keyhavenpotterer]

Yorkshire cobles are famous for their ability to launch and retrieve through the surf on the North Yorkshire coast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/images/2007/09/24/07_400x300.jpg

Selway Fisher have produced a version which uses these cobles as inspiration, yet modernised for lightweight construction (S&T) and normal rudders. The original boats had deep rudders which were un-shipped as they approached the beach.
9'4" up to 12'6"
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Cobles.htm

Brian

[keyhavenpotterer]

JimD,

here is Michael Storer's rigging guide for the Goat. The way Michael rigs the halyard means that there is no need to fully lower the yard and re-attached the halyard in a different place as is usual with lug rigs such as my own Scow rig. I think he covers reefing here, but if not he may be along to fully describe reefing a Goat.

http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html

http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GIS%20Halyard%20detail.jpg

Brian

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The catch in this thread is the desired option to load two, three or four, adults I presume, into a very lightweight hull and be able to sail it. If the crew is a bunch of barbee feeders their total weight could turn this lightweight wonder into a slug.
Even if a design is capable of supporting XXX kgs safely that doesn't mean XXXkgs is an ideal sailing load or a rowing load for that matter.
The span of desired characteristics is fairly wide which makes me think a small, lightweight hull is not going to be able to do it all satisfactorily.
Are two boats a possibility?

[Yeadon]

If you're launching and landing off a beach with breaking surf, I'd want something double-ended with a lot of freeboard on each end. Lots of buoyancy.

[Brian Palmer]

How about a pea pod?

Like Joel White's or Doug Hylan's, plans available from WB Store. They can likely hand the surf, and are small enough to manage on a hand cart down the beach. They seem to fit almost all your criteria, including the sail rig specs.

Doug Hylan's is built of glued lap construction, and skills required are "basic to intermediate."

Brian

[michigangeorge]

You might look at the Shearwater, plans available from our sponsor.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400058.jpg

And keep the rubber duck for use with the outboard.

I have a Shearwater and cannot agree with JohnW on this choice. She is a very low freeboard hull primarly meant for singlehanded rowing with the option of some sailing ability. She also has a full length keel instead of a flat bottom which would be better for beaching.
She is also very tender when trying to board from overside.
She is a very nice boat when used appropriately.

[TerryLL]

The posts so far are emphasizing the need for a boat to get out through the surf. The big difficulty is not getting out, as most boats are capable of facing waves head-on. The real problem is getting back in. You need a boat that will surf down a wave face without bow-steering itself off to the side, and with a stern that will part the following seas without taking water.

You need to also consider how the boat behaves once it's back on the beach. If the boat has a flat stern, even small waves running up the beach will splash up and in. A boat with a sharply raked and narrow transom, like many of the dories, will not take water over the stern.

A boat with a straight bottom (viewed in profile) will be very difficult to maneuver when it's sitting on the sand because the full length of the bottom is touching. But a boat with good bottom rocker will contact the sand amidships only, with the bow and stern well off the sand. This type of boat can be pivoted around much more easily.

If you absolutely need to carry an outboard, then a small motor in a drop-in well might be the answer. Use oars to get on and off the beach and use the motor once you're in deeper water.

As far as construction goes, building batten-seam with thin plywood, like Gardner's gunning dory, will produce a very light and stiff hull. Decking the ends will stiffen it further, as well as provide buoyancy chambers.

[kenjamin]

Not what I'd call an easy build but Oughtred's 14' 6" Willy would probably fill the bill. It's a little broad for rowing but can take a small motor and sails well.

[TerryLL]

Hey Kenjamin,

How do you think your Caledonia Yawl would do as a surf boat with a couple really good oarsmen?

I had my John Dory on and off some pretty hairy beaches up in Alaska and it worked pretty well. My wife and I could get it up and down the beach rolling it on two long fenders, and the two of us had no trouble rowing it out through the surf. It was very well-behaved surfing into shore, but it still scared the stuffing out of the missus. Never took water, though the following seas were right at the top of the transom. Whoever invented the dory tombstone transom was a genius.

[Wiley Baggins]

Parker’s SEABRIGHT 15 might meet some of your wants - http://www.parker-marine.com/parker2_1.htm

There’s not much beyond a small illustration at the page above, but Mike O’Brien did a lengthy write-up in his BDQ (“Boat Design Quarterly”).

[Daniel Noyes]

Like Terry said get a copy of John Gardners dory book, most of the boats in the book will suit your needs more or less.
I think you will find a dory handier on the beach than a v bottom like the Caledonia Yawl because of it's flat bottom.
Terry mentions the plumb bow of the Goat Island Skiff wich gives it a longer waterline but it will not be as dry going into the waves and will be harder to controll in a following sea.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com
Gary Powell has some great photos on his Swampscott dory site. http://www.geocities.com/garylambda/SwampscottDory.html

Swampscott Massachusetts about 1900
http://www.geocities.com/garylambda/doriesOnTheBeach.jpg

[Chip-skiff]

Going back to your photo, I'd think you could launch and retrieve a Goatie off that beach through those waves. You'd want two rowers, one poised at the oars and the other to wade it out and then tumble in over the stern. That'd be the crux. Once you had two rowers clapped on, you'd have it licked.

The Goat-boat has quite a lot of freeboard and shouldn't take a lot of water if kept on the level. It looks like the waves break easily a bit offshore, rather than charging right up with a boom. It's a gentle, rather than steep, beachfront.

Will the GIS mast & all stow in the boat? Seems like a tallish rig.

Nice pics, JimD— whereabouts? Those Mexicano panga fishermen had some serious cojones!

[seanz]

If you're launching and landing off a beach with breaking surf, I'd want something double-ended with a lot of freeboard on each end. Lots of buoyancy.

I was thinking about this....

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/goldenbaysetnet/index.htm

Fits most of your requirements and could double as a tender, maybe.

There is even a ply version of a Coble

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/yorkshire/index.htm

And then I read Yeadon's post and thought of these

http://bigjennyexpeditionboats.com/Jenny.htm

A ply version of Herreshoff's Carpenter.....bit heavy, but.

And then I thought......I've never met Hans but he seems like a chap with sterling qualities and I do know that piece of coast quite well......what would be the most fun and saferest boat for the conditions not to mention the launch requirements.....the sort of boat where you start off wet so things can only get better.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/index.html

I thought of the Proa....it won't do the job of a tender and it might not be too good to fish from but it's built like a bloody big surf ski and that's the only thing I'd launch into the surf of Bass Strait and it'd need to be a nice sunny calm day too.
:cool:

All advice given by 'just some bloke on the internet' and is probably worth exactly what you paid for it
:)

Also, you may need more boats than you planned on......fancy that, eh?
;)

[keyhavenpotterer]

This youtube clip shows the Light Trow owners method of singlehanded launching into waves. Having used two fenders to roll her into the water, he has them tied on a length of rope and tows them behind until clear of the waves when he can recover them.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PP9xbeAaNdQ

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PP9xbeAaNdQ

[hansp77]

just got back from work and WOW, so many good posts. Thank you to everyone.

After a read through, I have to go back now and follow through all the links and try to address things individually,

firstly, just to generally clarify a little,
rather than give too little info, I listed as many wants as I could just to give a greater feel of what I am after, and fully expect that they probably can't all be filled by one boat, so compromises will have to be made.
One boat it will have to be though- I already have the big wooden thing out on the mooring, the little aluminum thing under the jetty to get to the mooring, and the damn big stupid leaky annoying inflatable.

In the end, I just need to be able to build it (as cheaply as possible), get out there, get back in, and hopefully be able to sail around a little bit.

frankly I would prefer not having to have an outboard. If I can row it or sail it out through the surf, and back in, then I would be much happier.
So if that helps the process, can the outboard idea.

By 3 or 4 people, I really mean 3 max for sailing (mostly 2), and 4 an occasional possibility for those perfect calm sunny days where we would drop an anchor 50m off shore and go fishing.

I don't have an outboard for the inflatable- and frankly the inflatable is just a cheap one that doesn't really deserve one:rolleyes:- the way we get it out is to either swim it out from the beach visible (as we did in the photo) or carry it up further right around the bend where there is a little deeper rocky cove that you can launch into. Time it right, run it through the the little breakers and paddle like hell to make it out. The inflatable is a PITA to get in and out without getting flipped. I have failed more times than I have succeeded getting that thing out... we wear wetsuits when we do it, not clothes.:D
I almost lost a heap of my fishing gear (not to mention a bag of King George Whiting) 'riding' the waves in last time, we only just didn't flip, and am not looking forward to doing it again like that.

This little cove thing would be a great spot to launch this theoretical new boat, however it requires a longer time carrying the boat, and at the very least I would not want to rely on it always- the boat needs to be able to handle the small waves encounted by launching and retrieving on the sand.

like Terry has brought up, my main concern is actually getting back in rather than getting out. The waves do break rather spread out here, they are always full (rather than dumping)(boring surf;)) and there is generally a fairly long spread out section of white wash.
If the boat can row or sail out through whitewash, and actually still make headway, then it will get out there. Coming back in to the beach (rather than the rocky cove) though, it is going to have to be able to take at least a few whitewash waves on the stern without getting swamped or 'bow steering' and flipping.

now to reading up through all the links...

[kenjamin]

Hey Kenjamin,

How do you think your Caledonia Yawl would do as a surf boat with a couple really good oarsmen?

I had my John Dory on and off some pretty hairy beaches up in Alaska and it worked pretty well. My wife and I could get it up and down the beach rolling it on two long fenders, and the two of us had no trouble rowing it out through the surf. It was very well-behaved surfing into shore, but it still scared the stuffing out of the missus. Never took water, though the following seas were right at the top of the transom. Whoever invented the dory tombstone transom was a genius.

In answer to TerryLL, I think the Caledonia Yawl is an extremely capable and seaworthy boat but it's a bit of a slug when it comes to rowing and rowing in surf would be even more difficult. As a long time surfer, I know that to get outside the breakers it's all in the timing. If the boat doesn't respond quick enough during the lulls of the oncoming sets of waves then you're likely to not be far enough out when that really big one comes along. It sounds like for the gentle conditions that our thread author faces, the Caledonia Yawl would do fine except that it is a very large boat for two or three people. That's why I suggested the Willy. However, for a greater range of surf conditions, the John Dory is probably a better choice especially for rowing.

[TerryLL]

Kenjamin,
I thought maybe the CY was a bit heavy and slow under oars to be a reliable surf boat. Thanks for confirming that.

My John Dory was built pretty much as designed and weighed in at a bit over 200 pounds, which made it quick and lively under oars. I had 9' spruce oars when rowing single and it would move right out with just a few strokes. It had three rowing stations so two could row comfortably from the fore and aft positions. Here's a pic of her sitting in a quiet cove outside Sitka.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/johndory.jpg

[Dan St Gean]

what would be the most fun and saferest boat for the conditions not to mention the launch requirements.....the sort of boat where you start off wet so things can only get better.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/index.html

I thought of the Proa....it won't do the job of a tender and it might not be too good to fish from but it's built like a bloody big surf ski and that's the only thing I'd launch into the surf of Bass Strait and it'd need to be a nice sunny calm day too.
:cool:

All advice given by 'just some bloke on the internet' and is probably worth exactly what you paid for it
:)

Also, you may need more boats than you planned on......fancy that, eh?
;)



If you want a beach boat versatile enough to do what you want, the Gary Dierking suggestion is a great one. His Wa'apa is 16' or 24' and can take--drum roll please--two to four people.:cool: If you rig a larger ama and a tramp like my Ulua you would have some serious lounging space in addition. Surf landings?:eek: No sweat, look at some of the surfing outrigger pics on the web.:D

It would be a natural in OZ as well. http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/

Dan

[Daniel Noyes]

Yes there probably are dozens of modern designs that can be forced to work but why go for good enough when you can have a classic dory.
John Gardner took of the lines of the best of these boats, the best of thousands of designs over a couple hundred years... lets face it, us modern designers of rowing and sailing boats are big fish in a small pond when compared with designers like Chamberlain or Emmons who were designing sail and oar boats in 1900.
I fliped through John Gardners dory book last night and counted close to a dozen designs I would consider excelent surf/sail boats, the Chamberlain gunning dory is probably the top choice. These boats were developed over hundreds of yrs. along the coast of Newengland, by men who used them every day and who's life depended on their performance.
I can think of two modern designs also worth a close look, funny they are both double ended dories like the gunning dory but are called something else.
The flat bottom Bolger design Sweet Pea, said to be inspired by a peapod
and the flat bottom CLC design Skerry, said to be inspired by a nordic Fareing
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com (http://dansdories.googlepages.com/)
Lowells', Bank dory, coat guard dory in "the Dory Book" used for beach rescues in california for over 80 yrs.
http://www.lowellsboatshop.com/images/lifeguards.jpg

[Chip-skiff]

This little cove thing would be a great spot to launch this theoretical new boat, however it requires a longer time carrying the boat.

There are fat-tired beach dollies that fold up for stowing. Seems like it'd be smarter to launch & retrieve in a calm spot rather than chancing a flip in the waves each time.

The GIS has quite a rocker to the bottom and a fairly high transom. Wonder if you could build one with a raked transom? In any event, There must be some Goatie sailors and perhaps some dory types around Melbourne— maybe you could talk 'em into giving it a go, and put up some good feed & drink. Nothing like a reality check—

[David G]

Trying to keep all the requirements in mind: carry 2-3 to sail and 2-4 to fish; light enough to carry to the water; sail reasonably well; row to launch & retrieve through the surf. Skipping the outboard.

Again, I'd say the GIS suits all the criteria except maybe the surf part.

I can't think of any other boat - including those mentioned above - that will at the same time be light enough to carry, and large enough to fish your crew. Then we add - will sail reasonably well, and has a chance of braving the surf. It is, indeed, a tall order.

Concerning the launch/retrieve, I'm certain I could manage it in the conditions shown in the video in post #34. I described the trouble we had in much rougher conditions. The foto of your beach - if, as you say, this is typical - would be a probable go. I'd feel comfortable with the notion for myself. I feel a bit less comfortable recommending it to you - not having seen the conditions in person, and not knowing your level of skill, bravado, persistence, building prowess, etc. The Goat's transom, as mentioned, is fairly high. I don't know whether it could be raked without affecting anything critical. You'd certainly have to skip the stock rudder/tiller and switch to a dory-style setup. My guess would be that it could be done, but you'd have to consult the designer, Michael Storer:

http://www.storerboatplans.com/

Oh, and to answer a question posed earlier. The spars for the balanced lug rig on the GIS will not quite fit inboard. They will stick out the bow or over the transom a bit. It's easy enough to strap the bundled rig to the gunwale, and still row.

Of course, if it failed the surf test, you wouldn't have a ton of time or money invested, and you would have a very lovely boat to play with.


"It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities" -- J.K. Rowling

[Woody Jones]

How about the Ian Oughtred Skerrieshiff?

http://www.jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/Skerrieskiff%2015%20&%2017.pdf

Attractive, easily built, double ender with a flat bottom. A rowing boat first and tender sailer. Can be built to 14'10", 15'3" or 17'4". Could easily be rolled across the beach on rollers. An outboard well could probably be installed also.

Woody

[TerryLL]

Woody,

Oughtred's skerrieskiff has all the qualities I'd be looking for in a surf boat. I think I'd opt for the 17' version as the best suited for two rowers. And you're right about the outboard, a simply drop in well is an easy installation on the flat bottom.

The hull form is remarkably similar to Gardner's gunning dory, Chamberlain's surf dory and any number of other double enders that evolved in places where the seas are steep.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Post 15 has the line drawing and picture for Skerrieskiff.

Brian

[Daniel Noyes]

Wow David thanks for the reality check, I missed the requirement to cary 4 men on a fishing trip, I have to retract the bolger sweet pea and the CLC Skerry, I dont' even think the 18' gunning dory is big enough.
Hans you are going to need something the size of a 19' banks dory or larger! Terry mentions the John Gardner/ William Chamberlain surf dory, that would be great, also I think the Alpha dory could fit the surf boat bill and sail better than the other boats we have mentioned previous.
No-dout the GIS is far too small, just imagine 4 men, fishing gear, and a cooler in a GIS rowing out through the surf, It would go right through the first wave like a submarine!
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[TerryLL]

Dan,
Did you ever get an accurate weight on your new Alpha dory? Is it light enough for four men to carry, or for two people to pull up the beach on skids. You may have mentioned on another thread, but what are the plank thicknesses you used?

[MiddleAgesMan]

Three men in a Goat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm6GxO50VYk&eurl=http://www.storerboatplans.com/video.html

You guys act like Hans would be crazy to take a boat through the surf unless it is a true surf boat. He clearly said he would be using it only in moderate conditions and usually with one or two people aboard. The Goat would be just fine for his intended use and if there is some rare occasion he wants to load it with four people I trust he has the common sense to do it only in the mildest conditions.

I'm reminded of a proposal I once made for the ultimate in safe transportation on land (facetiously, to be sure). IMO the only safe automobile is one with a strong steel cylinder for the outer shell, with 1" wall thickness, lined throughout with 18 inches of foam. ;)

[The Bigfella]

Yeah - I know its a wooden boat forum - but, have you considered a hobie Cat?

[htom]

Oughtred's Ness Yawl, maybe stretched? Joel White's Greater Shearwater? But really, when I read the opening post, I thought of Gardner's Texas Surf Dory or his version of the Chamberlin Gunning Dory.

[MiddleAgesMan]

Here's a short video of the Goat with the designer sailing by himself in a nice breeze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4_OTodVTg&eurl=http://www.storerboatplans.com/video.html

There is a lot of sail in the Goat but it's easily reefed or you could go with his Laser sail option which reduces the area about 35%.

[TerryLL]

MAM,

Go back and read post 12. The one guy on this thread who has actually taken a GIS through real surf capsized it twice getting out and again getting back in.

I agree with you that Hans has the common sense to launch only when he feels it's safe, but what happens if conditions go south when he's out? He needs a boat that will handle the worse conditions he is ever likely to face, not a marginal boat that only works in mild conditions. Coming back in through the surf you either make it or you dump, there's no backing up for another try later. So, yes, I feel he needs a real surf boat.

Your videos of the GIS zipping around on flat water are great, but is this your rationale for arguing that the GIS is a reasonable boat to use in breaking surf? I don't get it.

[Steve Paskey]

I'd can the idea of carrying it to the water unless it's truly not feasible to do otherwise -- it rules out the best options. Get a Seitech dolly with balloon tires and pull it over the sand.

Paul Fisher has a nice 16-foot stitch-and-glue Swampscott dory -- an easier build than other Swampscotts. And there's a version called the Petit Bris with a wider transom.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm#FISH

[David G]

MAM,

Go back and read post 12. The one guy on this thread who has actually taken a GIS through real surf capsized it twice getting out and again getting back in.

I agree with you that Hans has the common sense to launch only when he feels it's safe, but what happens if conditions go south when he's out? He needs a boat that will handle the worse conditions he is ever likely to face, not a marginal boat that only works in mild conditions. Coming back in through the surf you either make it or you dump, there's no backing up for another try later. So, yes, I feel he needs a real surf boat.

Your videos of the GIS zipping around on flat water are great, but is this your rationale for arguing that the GIS is a reasonable boat to use in breaking surf? I don't get it.

Terry,

I'm the fella who tried to turn the Goat into a surfboard. Can't argue with anything you say here. What I keep bumping up against, though, is the totality of his requirements. I can't see what boat is gonna do everything he asks... if it's not the GIS. Maybe the answer is no boat. But the GIS weighs in at about #130. Everything else that's been suggested - even though it might be better through the surf - is either too small to fish the way he wants, or too heavy to carry to the water. Or did I miss something?

The only reason I hold out the GIS at all is because my experience in the surf was in rougher (higher, steeper, more frequent) stuff. I had the sense that in slightly less demanding conditions, the GIS might have done the job.

I should probably also mention - just to make the picture muddier - that the boat was just finished. The surfing adventure was its first time in the water. I'd never rowed it at all prior - though I've rowed a bit in my life. Oh, and the oars were a foot too short. Nonetheless, there's no arguing that it's not the ideal surf boat... if that were the only criteria.

If he's not willing to take the chance on a GIS, then I think maybe the next step is to pare his wish list again.


"Where is boom?" -- Boris & Natasha

[fish948]

i would pay good money to watch a goat island skiff go through its paces in the surf and in some real waves !!!

[hansp77]

once again,
many thanks to all who are contributing here, the collective passion, knowledge and experience exhibited is exactly the reason why I frequent this place and feel it the best place to ask this question.

I am having a hard time trying to keep up with this thread right now, lots of long hour days trying to get the better half of a job knocked off before christmas- I wrote a reply this morning with the coffee in hand before work but lost it in the ether before I finished...

now,
I fully realised before, and more so as this thread has progressed, that all of my 'wants' would never be fulfilled. Put it down to my poor comunication that I didn't get this across more clearly- better to express them anyway I thought- it is after all at this point a desire and a dream. What will happen is that I inevitably narrow it down to the best compromise for the situation.
If I can only carry two max, then that will be that. If I have to get a beach trolley, then so be it. etc.

my thoughts at present,
I love the GIS, but am feeling that while it could be great, especially in tailor-made conditions, that for a few reasons it might not be the best for me.
As discussed, my primary concern is getting the boat back in through whitewash, especially if conditions go south quickly (and being on the SW coast VIC, on the Bass Strait, though this bay IS very sheltered, this must remain one of my key priorities). Also, and I realise this is going against my stated desire for the very occasional 3-4 in the boat (which middleagesman is correct- I would only do in the most perfect and safe conditions- and very very close to shore), it is probably on the larger scale of the spectrum that would suit the storage of the boat.
The beach house isn't that big, so this must be considered.

So, at this point (though this may of course change) it is narrowing down for me to a proper 'surf boat', double ender, probably too heavy to carry, probably more complex construction than desired, or, a sailing outrigger canoe.
I will get the dory book for chrissy, and I will look fully into that avenue,
however, right now I am leaning more towards the outrigger canoe.
I figure I can meet a lot of the key requirements, while sacrificing the fewest (or the least important).
Lightweight, easier storage and transport, easier, quicker and cheaper build, and more possibilities for different uses, especially the singlehander option- sailing or rowing etc, and traveling with the thing.

So, thanks to Sean and Dan, the 16 ft Wa'apa looks very nice, and suits many of my requirements- it also appears to be immediately within my building capabilities.
Not sure yet on the tacking or the 'oceanic lateen' shunting rig (not quite sure yet how the shunting rig actually works- though I am still reading the link below)- superficially I definitely find the lateen shunting rig more aesthetically apealing, but am prima facie more comfortable/familiar with a tacking rig...
This (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fHEhcXEbfpMC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=wa%27apa&source=web&ots=O_6OVR_B9L&sig=W50vqHL7cZyREcLVUerenD8rMTo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA35,M1) was (and is as I write) a good read about the Wa'apa.

Many thanks to all. Back to reading about the Wa'apa now.
Hans.

p.s. Ian, there is a little hobbie cat that sits on the beach near the caravan park. I've never ever seen it used or moved yet. It would probably be pretty good, but it is not what I am hankering for.

[The Bigfella]

Yeah Hans - I know what you mean - but seriously, that is what they are really good at. Great, stable fishing platform. Whack some rollocks on it and row it out or sail it out.

btw - when you get a chance - can I get some gearbox dimensions from you - length & weight? No hurry.

[hansp77]

well maybe I should just find out who owns the cat rotting on the beach and see if I can use it;) (not actually the worst idea).

One other reason I like the outrigger canoe is that I have also wanted a canoe/kayak for a while. I want to go back to Tassy sometime soonish (west coast primarily) and explore upstream some of the rivers that are crossed. Also some of the lakes would be great.
That the Wa'apa hull breaks down into three pieces opens up a whole range of storage and transport options.

Also,
no problem, I will get the weight and dimensions of gearbox in the next couple of days.

[TerryLL]

Terry,

I'm the fella who tried to turn the Goat into a surfboard. Can't argue with anything you say here. What I keep bumping up against, though, is the totality of his requirements. I can't see what boat is gonna do everything he asks... if it's not the GIS. Maybe the answer is no boat. But the GIS weighs in at about #130. Everything else that's been suggested - even though it might be better through the surf - is either too small to fish the way he wants, or too heavy to carry to the water. Or did I miss something?

The only reason I hold out the GIS at all is because my experience in the surf was in rougher (higher, steeper, more frequent) stuff. I had the sense that in slightly less demanding conditions, the GIS might have done the job.

I should probably also mention - just to make the picture muddier - that the boat was just finished. The surfing adventure was its first time in the water. I'd never rowed it at all prior - though I've rowed a bit in my life. Oh, and the oars were a foot too short. Nonetheless, there's no arguing that it's not the ideal surf boat... if that were the only criteria.

If he's not willing to take the chance on a GIS, then I think maybe the next step is to pare his wish list again.


"Where is boom?" -- Boris & Natasha

David,

There's several boats mentioned in this thread that would do OK through the surf that weigh in under 200 pounds. Two people would have trouble carrying that much, but it's easy to roll a boat that heavy up and down the beach on long fenders, or with a small beach dolly with balloon tires.

The four-person capacity is the big problem, and Hans would have to make some compromises there.

The GIS is a great little boat and does a lot of things well, in addition to being an easy build and a great sail trainer. The problem I have with the GIS as a surf boat is the forefoot and the flat transom. Getting out in moderate surf might not be a problem, but surfing back in down a wave face would be. That sharp plumb bow will certainly want to steer the boat off to one side or the other. There's a good reason why real surf boats have a cut-away forefoot.

I'm familiar with the surf on Canon beach and other WA and OR beaches and agree that the surf on Hans's beach is pretty mild in comparison, but it doesn't take much of a following sea to cause problems with a boat that has a strong tendency to bow-steer.

Well, I think I've beat this horse long enough. Experience is a great teacher. Anybody who still believes the GIS would do well in the surf needs to take theirs out to the coast and try it in the waves. Wear your PFD.

[kenjamin]

Hey guys, check out these beach wheels for "Do-it-yourselfers".

http://www.wheeleez.com/

A custom cart under a John Dory could fill the bill nicely.

[Dan St Gean]

however, right now I am leaning more towards the outrigger canoe.
I figure I can meet a lot of the key requirements, while sacrificing the fewest (or the least important).
Lightweight, easier storage and transport, easier, quicker and cheaper build, and more possibilities for different uses, especially the singlehander option- sailing or rowing etc, and traveling with the thing.

So, thanks to Sean and Dan, the 16 ft Wa'apa looks very nice, and suits many of my requirements- it also appears to be immediately within my building capabilities.
Not sure yet on the tacking or the 'oceanic lateen' shunting rig (not quite sure yet how the shunting rig actually works- though I am still reading the link below)- superficially I definitely find the lateen shunting rig more aesthetically apealing, but am prima facie more comfortable/familiar with a tacking rig...
This (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fHEhcXEbfpMC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=wa%27apa&source=web&ots=O_6OVR_B9L&sig=W50vqHL7cZyREcLVUerenD8rMTo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA35,M1) was (and is as I write) a good read about the Wa'apa.

Many thanks to all. Back to reading about the Wa'apa now.
Hans.

p.s. Ian, there is a little hobbie cat that sits on the beach near the caravan park. I've never ever seen it used or moved yet. It would probably be pretty good, but it is not what I am hankering for.

You need not build a shunter. You can build a tacker with ease and one can build it a single or double outrigger. You can email Gary and he's been very helpful. Buy the book you linked to and you'll get the plans for the Wa'apa.

Dan

[Daniel Noyes]

Next time someone is looking for a design of a 15' slab sided, wide sterned, open, daysailing skiff, capable of daysailing in rivers lakes and protected bays, 1-3 passenger sail in comfort and planing performance with one or two aboard in moderate wind... must have a plumb bow and a lug rig option, Ill post a bunch of surf boat designs! (:

I understand that prudence and practice could probably get the GIS or one of many other similar small boats to work, point is there are some boats thet were developed just for this use and are second to none.
It is important to rember that a beach break can change, launch in small waves and when you return several hrs. later there can be a decent size surf. Ocean swells are generated far over the horizon so local weather has little clue about what you will encounter at the surf line.

Hans
very cool a canoe... I would have to agree that the canoes are boats developed over hundreds/thousands of years for just what you want to do...fish and sail safely off the beach, I am not familiar with them or designs so I look forward to posts about them.
If you are looking at the canoe I assume you dont mind getting wet going through the surf, if that is the case howabout a couple simple kayaks? or a good size sailing surf board?
here's one from DN Goodchild
Dan
for video of Alpha dory sailing (I think the beach cart would be fine for this boat I wheel the 21' boat in the video around my yard on a set of small lawn mower wheels) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GSmuN34X-o&feature=related
http://dansdpries.googlepages.com (http://dansdpries.googlepages.com/)
http://www.dngoodchild.com/5190.jpg

[David G]

Next time someone is looking for a design of a 15' slab sided, wide sterned, open, daysailing skiff, capable of daysailing in rivers lakes and protected bays, 1-3 passenger sail in comfort and planing performance with one or two aboard in moderate wind... must have a plumb bow and a lug rig option, Ill post a bunch of surf boat designs! (:

I understand that prudence and practice could probably get the GIS or one of many other similar small boats to work, point is there are some boats thet were developed just for this use and are second to none.

Mr. Noyes,

Are we in the Bilge all of a sudden? :confused: Did you read through the thread? Are you aware of the matrix of characteristics that were requested? At least go back and read my post # 53 as to why the GIS might be the only boat that'd fulfill his wish list - if, indeed, any boat could.

I read the whole thread, and put some thought into my various responses - and don't appreciate having them disparaged with some snarky little cheap shot. If that's the mood you're in, take it to the Bilge and pick out a target... there are plenty there.


"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters" -- Solomon Short

[TerryLL]

David,
I think you may have taken Dan's comments wrongly. I interpreted his remarks as poking a bit of fun perhaps, but not disparaging or snarky. In my time on this forum Dan has always been helpful and expansive with his comments, especially with new builders.

You both had much to offer on this thread that was valuable, and we all have strong opinions about various boats and their uses. Let's just all take a deep breath here and carry on in a civil manner.

[MiddleAgesMan]

"Next time someone is looking for a design of a 15' slab sided, wide sterned, open, daysailing skiff, capable of daysailing in rivers lakes and protected bays, 1-3 passenger sail in comfort and planing performance with one or two aboard in moderate wind... must have a plumb bow and a lug rig option, Ill post a bunch of surf boat designs!";)

Tongue-in-cheek but something that is done on here all the time so it's nothing new.

Someone will say he wants to build a traditional looking round bilge design and try his hand at strip planking. Before you can blink twice someone will be along to tell him what he really needs to do is build it carvel.

Or, a new poster will say he's looking for a a 20 foot row-sail design he can load on a trailer easily and by post number 4 someone will have suggested a fixed keel design drawing 3 1/2 feet!

Hans posted a photo showing his beach and in his very first post he said the boat should be able to handle "small waves." So of course the discussion turns to a proper surf boat. ;) Shortly thereafter pictures of small surf boats crashing through 6 foot breakers are added so we all can see the Goat is nothing like the type.

I'm still on the "small wave" thing and I still agree with David G that if there is a boat that meets all of the criteria it would be the Goat. If I was sailing a Goat off a beach with "small waves" I wouldn't think twice about failing by capsizing, going out or coming back in. If conditions worsen while out I would just change strategy a little--turn the bow into the waves and back her in under oars.

But if I ever get to hankering after a true surf boat I will search out this thread. ;)

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Did I detected some supposed criticism involving the GIS? It's been my experience that no slight goes unpunished.

Addendum
This has been an interesting thread. I've learned a lot. Acrimony has it's benefits.

[David G]

C'Chuck,

Apparently, you and Storer have gotten into past wrangles. Not my battle. I'm not Mr. Storer, nor do I play him on TV. My pique was not about the GIS in particular. Instead, it was about taking the time to formulate several carefully considered responses, trying to respond realistically and constructively to a legitimate query by the OP, engaging in a fruitful dialogue with several others about the issues, and having it all dismissed by a frivolous response which did not address the issue, accurately represent (at least my) prior posts, forward the discussion, nor respect the prior efforts by all concerned.

Perhaps the response I have objected to was nothing more than a fun-loving bit of wit - with no ill intent. If that's so, I'm perfectly happy to let it pass. Sometimes I am too easily offended, but this one just struck me wrong. Mr. Noyes hasn't said that was the case, but several others have suggested so. Perhaps Mr. Noyes will be along later to say, "Sorry you were offended, I wasn't aiming to be offensive", or some such.

So, please don't try to make this an extension of whatever conflict may exist between you and Mr. Storer. Thanks.

[slidercat]

Upthread there was some mention of a cat as a suitable boat. Long ago when I owned a Wharram Tane, I was always comforted by the thought that if things really went south out on the Gulf, and an onshore gale commenced when I was between passes, I'd have a much better chance of surfing safely ashore in the cat.

Of course, that boat would be way too big, but I've recently started drawing what I intend to be a cartop cat. The individual hulls will have to be light enough to lift up onto a roof rack.

Still, you can't carry 4 people on a light 14 foot cat, but there are ways to divide the weight up to allow a bigger boat that's still movable by one or two people, and you can also use a sand dolly as someone upthread suggested. One way to get a boat with enough displacement for 4 and fishing gear is to break each cat hull into two pieces. That's the approach taken by Selway-Fisher's Hawk design. Years ago I built Gerr's Nester dinghy as a tender for one of our yachts, and the two-part hull technique worked very well.

For fishing under sail, a catamaran is exceptionally functional-- gives you a very stable platform with lots of edge. I rarely go out in my little cat without trailing a line or two, and I catch a lot of fish.

Here's some video of a fishing trip where we only caught a few bluefish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_9IUvcBgq4&feature=channel

No actual footage of catching, but at least you can see the rod holders I stuck out on the rudder heads.

[hansp77]

Hans , I'm a bit up the coast from you , looking to do a similar job , but to come in and out of the Fitzroy river , which is shallow and fast at the mouth , when it is open .
Maybe I could get a photo up too , and see what people reckon.
Regards Rob

Gday Rob,
I was just checking out on google maps where the Fitzroy River is, feel free to post up some photos of your intended areas to see what people reckon.

River mouths certainly are one thing I have grown to be wary of- before I was into boats I mainly knew them from surfing because the banks were so erratic (and potentially good). They could change by the hour along with their with rips, channels and sudden dumping waves... and then of course the sharks... lotsa sharks at river mouths.:eek: Near to where I grew up on the north coast, was Brunswick Heads, where there was regularly someone (old and salty or young and fresh) getting themselves into trouble at the Brunswick River mouth. Quite a few boats and people lost there IIRC.

But anyway, post up Rob, and Hello:), I don't think I have bumped into you yet here. While your purposes are slightly different to mine, I reckon at least some of the recommended possibilities for both might overlap.

Thanks to everyone else, I am still following this thread whenever I get the chance. Pre-christmas work is all piling on top of itself so I haven't much time to respond.

gotta run,
Hans.

[hansp77]

back from a week at the beach house.
I took the inflatable out for two days, and sussed out the best launching places.
The little cove I talked of is the spot, one can get in and out there in 3-4 foot swell as we had relatively quickly and easily. Beyond that swell, you don't really want to be out there anyway. However, one has to be able to carry the boat down a flight of stairs.
All good fun, and another bag of King George Whiting caught and eaten. This is the only way to fish down there.
In the meantime I am considering a small outboard for the inflatable, and will think carefully about longer term plans.

funny thing seen when going for a drive around the corner.
This is the closest 'boat ramp' about 5 Km's round the corner.
This car was well and truly buried up to it's axles with waves washing over the tyres, and the owner was not very happy at all.
I was in my 4x4 with it's very large fat tyres so was about to offer some assistance in pulling him out, but turned away when he started hurling abuse at me and a few others for watching and taking a photo:D oh well, at least the tide was going out, not in.
A few hours later I checked and he had gotten out.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t304/hansp77/DSC00187.jpg