How to fill void athwartship the fore gripe?

[patrick.blanchard]

The Tern's ballast will be lead, so this leaves a void forward the ballast and behind the fore gripe. Should I lengthen the keel timber scarf with the fore gripe below the keelson so as to reach the lead ballast line? How to fill the void? Larger fore gripe? Separate timber? I think a separate timber would be easiest and would appear well positioned with keel bolts. What would a separate timber be called?

Thanks to any and all opinions...
patrick
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Wl9d-Ge9Ors/SUZwMRz9AfI/AAAAAAAAAEg/TVb5RKwmVTU/foregripe.jpg

[Jim Ledger]

A separate piece seems like the easiest and most straightforward way. I doubt any advantage would be gained by making something more complicated.

How's the progress on the model?

[patrick.blanchard]

Jim, looks like a separate piece fits nicely. I think this is aptly called 'aft gripe' considering the blueprints show a 'fore gripe'. The photo was sent to Mr. Brewer for confirmation. May be 'hind gripe'.

6. (Naut.) (a) The piece of timber which terminates the keel at the fore end; the forefoot. (b) The compass or sharpness of a ship's stern under the water, having a tendency to make her keep a good wind. (c) pl. An assemblage of ropes, dead-eyes, and hocks, fastened to ringbolts in the deck, to secure the boats when hoisted; also, broad bands passed around a boat to secure it at the davits and prevent swinging.http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Wl9d-Ge9Ors/SUgSFdIDseI/AAAAAAAAAEs/tLxTzTNEf8c/p1000424.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Wl9d-Ge9Ors/SUgR5xXMfyI/AAAAAAAAAEo/7RHPiRI5iDM/p1000414.jpg

[Peerie Maa]

They are probably just called deadwoods. I think gripe refers to the area of the keel no matter how many components are assembled to build it.

[Jay Greer]

Ok guys. Just so that the issue does not become confused or corrupted; lets start by understanding what a "gripe" is. First, the "cutwater" is a piece that is attached to the stem above the waterline in order to part the water. The "Gripe" is an extension of the cutwater that extends below the water line. In the accompanying photo of "Common Sense I" a "Gripe" can be seen extending from the waterline along the forefoot down to the ballast keel. It is an added piece that was intended to assist the boat in working to weather by providing a better hydrodynamic grip.
There was also mention of a "Keelson". Few boats today are built with Keelsons as they were additional stringers that laid on top of the floor timbers to impart greater strength to boats with little dead rise. More often than not they are used today in wooden powercraft.
Jay
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7ce26b3127ccec21a16e0d10900000010O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Ed Harrow]

Other than Jay's, none of the pictures show. Phoenix has a little bit of something that fits between the forward bit of the ballast and the keel, to fair the whole lot (ballast, keel, gripe) together. Not being able to see your pictures I don't know if that's the answer you want. Since Phoenix is all apart I can't show you it all assembled.

[patrick.blanchard]

I'm trying to understand how large to order the timbers so as to saw the individual pieces from logs.

sorry about the pictures not showing. Here is a link for the model pictures http://tinyurl.com/5oboeh and http://tinyurl.com/5u4tyq

and here is a link for a snapshot of Mr. Brewer's blueprint that shows the 'fore gripe'. http://tinyurl.com/5q75os

Thank you
patrick

[patrick.blanchard]

De: Brewer Designs <brewer@island.net>
Para: Patrick Blanchard <pbmd1@wamego.net>
Asunto: Re: Aft gripe? for Tern 32'
Fecha: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:54:05 -0800 (15:54 CST)

Patrick

The foregripe connects the stem to the keel. That piece you are looking at
is just a filler piece, part of the deadwood.

Ted

[Jay Greer]

Sorry Ted,
But I, respectfully beg to differ. That which is shown in the drawing forward of the ballast keel is the "Fore Foot". The "Gripe", as shown in the photo of "Common Sense I", I posted, is a separate piece that is attached on top of it. It's purpose is to carry out the profile of the cut water and assist the boat in working to weather. In addition, the term "Dead Wood", originaly, reffered to the extra material that was used for the attachment of the "Cant Frames" in square rigged ships. In modern construction it, most often is used to describe the material that is used to fill in the space between the stern post and structural keel.
An example of a "Keelson" is that which was used in the Lawley Centerboard Yawl "Seminole" that Anne and I donated to Elizabeth Meyer.
http://www.yachtseminole.com/articles.asp
Jay

[S B]

Definitions of terms differ with source, here ,though seldom used ,"gripe"refers to the piece of "deadwood" that completes the curve from stem to keel, using straight timber. Deadwood refers to any piece of the keel/stem/sternpost structure. Named parts, such as keel,stem,etc are stilldeadwood.

[Gezzunder]

Definitions of terms differ with source, here ,though seldom used ,"gripe"refers to the piece of "deadwood" that completes the curve from stem to keel, using straight timber. Deadwood refers to any piece of the keel/stem/sternpost structure. Named parts, such as keel,stem,etc are stilldeadwood.

In trying to come to grips with my newfound love of ships, in particular those with sails, I've been searching high and low for a decent site which details all the parts of ship. With little luck apart from the very basics (A boom is a stick on a sail).

Can anyone suggest a decent site?

[patrick.blanchard]

In the construction details, deadwood is glued and bolted. Should this piece we all are referring to be glued to the keel timber and bedded to ballast and foregripe? Or, should it only be bedded to all mating parts?

As to the keelson, it looks to me that the main mast stepped right above it could take heavy pounding and not loosen the stem over the years.

[Jim Ledger]

The individual parts of a solid timber backbone rarely get glued together, just bedded in some sticky goop and bolted. The timber is usually too green to glue, and too massive to stay glued through more than a couple of wet/dry cycles.

[S B]

In trying to come to grips with my newfound love of ships, in particular those with sails, I've been searching high and low for a decent site which details all the parts of ship. With little luck apart from the very basics (A boom is a stick on a sail).

Can anyone suggest a decent site?
Not to take anything from the members on this site, very knowledgable lot, you are asking the wrong folks. Go down to the wharf and find yourself someone who has nothing better to do than pass on his/her knowlwdge before it is lost forever. And when you have collected it all, post it so we can all share.:)

[watson1990]

Hey !
Its kinda funny... If you read the following ,which was ripped from the initial post, and imagine that you are the average JOE waliking down the street. Now you overhear two guys carrying on a conversation that sounds something like this,,,Why is it that we wonder why is it that our spouses don't understand,,our friends don't understand and all the while, you two are speaking like mr. Spock and another Vulcan is listening in ..
Here,,,read this and tell me why they don't understand !!:

: The Tern's ballast will be lead, so this leaves a void forward the ballast and behind the fore gripe. Should I lengthen the keel timber scarf with the fore gripe below the keelson so as to reach the lead ballast line? How to fill the void? Larger fore gripe? Separate timber? I think a separate timber would be easiest and would appear well positioned with keel bolts. What would a separate timber be called?


While I understand what you said, you need to be careful what you say in a crowded coffee shop...you might be overheard !!
Watson LOL

[patrick.blanchard]

...While I understand what you said, you need to be careful what you say in a crowded coffee shop...you might be overheard !!
Watson LOL

Out here in the Prairie, it's a lost cause. We talk beans, wheat, and heifers.

A picture is worth a thousand words... (http://tinyurl.com/6tbsac)

[Gezzunder]

Not to take anything from the members on this site, very knowledgable lot, you are asking the wrong folks. Go down to the wharf and find yourself someone who has nothing better to do than pass on his/her knowlwdge before it is lost forever. And when you have collected it all, post it so we can all share.:)

The instant I find someone down the wharf (club) who isn't sailing the latest piece of snot, I'll make a point of asking. Most of them tell me wood is for toothpicks and BBQs.

As to the subject of the post, it looks to me that the foregripe is stepped so as to accept the ballast - I see no void.

http://tinyurl.com/5q75os

[kc8pql]

As to the subject of the post, it looks to me that the foregripe is stepped so as to accept the ballast - I see no void.
Me either.

[patrick.blanchard]

It's not easy to see the details in the blueprint photo. That blueprint shows both iron and lead ballast lines; iron being the largest of course. The lead ballast lines are not easy to see even when looking at the blueprints, but they are there. I didn't find it until dry fitting the mylar templates and thinking I made a huge mistake on ballast size.

Here is a dryfit deadwood 'void' just forward the lead ballast for the 1/16th model. (http://tinyurl.com/754d5u)

Here is the detail of the blueprint. (http://tinyurl.com/99vcr8)

I made another mistake too, reversing the stem and stern knee; boy did that look wrong. But that's boatbuilding on the prairie for certain.

I can't get my photos to show on the WBF forum, so I'll just post the links.

[Jay Greer]

It's not easy to see the details in the blueprint photo. That blueprint shows both iron and lead ballast lines; iron being the largest of course. The lead ballast lines are not easy to see even when looking at the blueprints, but they are there. I didn't find it until dry fitting the mylar templates and thinking I made a huge mistake on ballast size.

Here is a dryfit deadwood 'void' just forward the lead ballast for the 1/16th model. (http://tinyurl.com/754d5u)

Here is the detail of the blueprint. (http://tinyurl.com/99vcr8)

I made another mistake too, reversing the stem and stern knee; boy did that look wrong. But that's boatbuilding on the prairie for certain.

I can't get my photos to show on the WBF forum, so I'll just post the links.
Well, I must stick by my own beliefs so far as the definition of a "Keelson" is concerned. The designer has, obviously, taken upon himself to use his own terminology in regards to his design. Technically, a "Keelson is a secondary strenghening layer of wood added to the top of a wooden keel. However it is historicaly laid on top of the floors in order to bind them more firmly to the keel and provide more strength to the keel timber in the form of a truss. Often "Sister Keelsons" were laid along side of the main keelson and were then bolted through the garboards.
All of this terminology has been handed down from the days of commercial sail as this type of construction was mandated by the need for strenght in large sailing ships and later wooden steam ships.
Jay

[Peerie Maa]

Well, I must stick by my own beliefs so far as the definition of a "Keelson" is concerned. The designer has, obviously, taken upon himself to use his own terminology in regards to his design. Technically, a "Keelson is a secondary strenghening layer of wood added to the top of a wooden keel. However it is historicaly laid on top of the floors in order to bind them more firmly to the keel and provide more strength to the keel timber in the form of a truss. Often "Sister Keelsons" were laid along side of the main keelson and were then bolted through the garboards.
All of this terminology has been handed down from the days of commercial sail as this type of construction was mandated by the need for strenght in large sailing ships and later wooden steam ships.
Jay

Borrowing from UK dingy building I agree with Jay, the Keelson goes on top of the floors. The timber on that structural profile would be called the Hog.

[Jay Greer]

Borrowing from UK dingy building I agree with Jay, the Keelson goes on top of the floors. The timber on that structural profile would be called the Hog.
Correct. It was even more correctly called a "Hog Frame" and was used to strengthen lightly built steam craft by forming a truss.
Jay

[Peerie Maa]

Correct. It was even more correctly called a "Hog Frame" and was used to strengthen lightly built steam craft by forming a truss.
Jay

I think that that is something different, an "anti hogging truss" to resist hogging. The hog in Patrick's boat provides the bearding surface of the rebate to which the garboards are fastened. Necessary in flat floored boats as it must be considerably wider than the keel stock, and in skeg built boats like this one with that stack of aft deadwood timbers.

[RFNK]

Well, whatever each bit is really called, I'm REALLY grateful to Patrick for opening up this thread as it presented the opportunity to see Jay's boat (old boat?) in front of the waterfall! That is just a beautiful shot - fantastic!! Thank you! Rick