Dedham Kayak info & help needed

[B0bber]

Hi Everyone, I'm new to this site!

I'm hoping that some of you may be able to provide a little insight into a project I've finally taken on.

Before I was born, my folks moved into a house that had this hull in the garage rafters (even then the canvas was in a major state of disrepair).
"http://b0bber.fileave.com/Kayak/IMG_0555%20-%20lowres.jpg"
"http://b0bber.fileave.com/Kayak/IMG_0549%20-%20low%20res.jpg"

I have recently researched it to the point of finding out that it is a Dedham Kayaks design/kit. Its is 11' OAL, 40" Beam (Here is an ad - circa 1952):
http://b0bber.fileave.com/Kayak/Dedham%20Kayak%201952Kayak%20ad.jpeg

Does anyone know more - or have any info about this company or these kits?

I still have both oars, but one is split/de-lam'ed pretty badly. (More pix to follow)...

As a youngster, a friend and I stripped all of the old canvas off with plans of recovering the boat - but never got that far. The hull has sat in its current state (again hanging in my father's garage) for over 35 years, just waiting for someone to do something with it. My dad had often considered using it for wildlife photography and fishing... but didn't have any idea how to get started.

After some discussions this past year, I've recently renewed our interest in wetting this hull. I've (we've) thought about skinning it with 6mm plywood (stitch & glue fashion). I'd even considered stripping it with WRC. We have finally decided after much contemplation, that we will keep it a SOF hull and re-cover it with Nylon (Cordura).

Here is where I need your ideas & knowledge:

Do we use 1050D or 1680D Nylon? This hull will be in the shallows and around twigs/rocks a lot. This was one of the reasons why we considered a S&G instead of SOF refit. Has anyone used 1680D Nylon? Tom Yost discusses shrinking nylon with an iron, will a "finished" nylon (see: http://www.ahh.biz/fabric_catagories/heavy_fabrics.htm) shrink or will only raw/unfinished nylon (not pre-urethaned) shrink?

None of the books I have and websites I've searched talk too extensively about the joint where the deck cloth and the hull cloth meet. Any wood trim would need to be screwed in place - I don't want the screws to show and plugs over the heads would require a deeper cross-section trim which might look too big on a small hull like this.

What would be the cleanest way to finish this deck/hull joint? I don't know if an automotive molding would stick to the cloth (even after polyurethaning the cloth), but this would otherwise be something that we would like, providing "rub rail" protection while hiding the deck cloth edge (& staples).

We also may want to do something with the stem and something on the transom corners too as these will be areas that will also look unfinished...
http://b0bber.fileave.com/Kayak/IMG_0551%20-%20lowres.jpg

This appears to have a sail mast provision... it might be neat to resurrect that feature as well. Any thoughts on a sail type, mast length, etc?
"http://b0bber.fileave.com/Kayak/IMG_0553.jpg"

Thanks in advance for all your help! Once I finalize the preparations I'll start a thread on our progress.

Bob

[Thorne]

Welcome to the Forum!

You will find us helpful but strangely picky at times .

Which of the SOF books do you own -- they should be able to answer most of these questions. Why nylon over some of the other materials?

Don't know about the wood trim but a common solution is to use a wood screw with a leather washer to hold the trim in place while the glue cures -- then pull the screw and fill the hole with a toothpick dipped in epoxy.

Here's how to post photos on this forum:

First - don't attach photos. Most web forums don't allow it, and space
limitations are the main reason why.

Second - Instead of attaching them to a thread, post the pics on the web
somewhere. You have a free website area with any paid ISP's email account,
or use www.picturetrail.com (http://www.picturetrail.com) or other free hosting service. Once posted on
the web, right-click the image to copy the URL (web address). Always test
first by pasting the image URL into the window of a web browser and see if
the image displays.

Remember, the IMAGE URL will end in .jpg, not .htm or html. URLs ending in .htm are the page that the image is at, not the image location itself. If the image URL ends in other code, try deleting everything after the "xxxxxx.jpg" part of the URL to get it to display on web forums.

Third - once posted on the web, try this procedure while logged in to this
Forum:

1. Click the "User CP" link in the browser window in the top left of the
menu bar.
2. Click the "Edit Options" link about 1/4 of the way down the left column.
3. In the "Misc Options" at the bottom of the next page, select "Enhanced
Interface" from the pulldown list.
4. Once this interface has been selected, in any "Reply" window you can
click the "insert photo" icon --> a little yellow square icon with the stamp
in the upper right corner, the mountains in the lower center.
5. Once the little dialog box titled "Please enter the URL of your image"
comes up, paste the URL of the photo in the field.

If unsure of the procedure, test first by pasting the image URL into the
window of a web browser.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

It isn't a kayak it's a dinghy and a rather narrow one at 36". Boats that are paddled or rowed shouldn't have their transoms in the water. That messes up the hydrodynamics and makes the boat hard to propell. A side view of the frame sitting on a level surface will help determine it it's properly shaped.
The boat looks like an interesting project but I wouldn't expect too much. It's rather small and doesn't displace enough to support a lot of weight. And how much wind and wave it can tolerate has to be figured out by testing.
There are a lot of nylon and polyester fabrics that can be used. I don't know the field. Go to
http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Building/index.cgi
or
http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandTechniqueForum_config.pl
for specific info on fabrics and where to get them.
Sailboat setups are a problem. If you want more than downwind sailng you need to set up the boat so it will tack. That requires some kind of fin like a centerboard or leeboards and a rudder. The fin(s) have to be accurately positioned in relation to the sail. I won't go in to that right now. Since the boat is only 36" wide I suspect it can't carry much sail for fear of tipping. Best to get the thing seaworthy and then go on to sailing if it seems practical.

[Woxbox]

I recovered an old fold-up kayak, I beleive it was a Granta, that had lost it's old canvas cover with aircraft dacron. It's a quick and easy job, and the stuff is far stronger than you'll be willing to believe. Aircraft dacron comes in various weights. Of course, you want the heavier stuff. It's glued on, shrunk with your wife's iron, and sealed with paint or varnish, your choice.

Here's one supplier:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php

And here are directions:
http://gaboats.com/tutorials/recanvas.html

[AJZimm]

You might consider the same technique and materials as are used for building SOF kayaks - that is, the same material for hull and decks stitched in placed and then coated with hypalon rubber, which is easily obtainable as a backyard deck coating material.
I built a wood-framed folding baidarka a few years ago this way and used the 15 oz nylon filter cloth that George Dyson recommended. It can be pulled and gathered to the point where there would only be only one seam along the center of the deck and at the stem and edges of the transom.
Dyson's book, Baidarka, describes the techniques very well, as I am sure do other SOF books.

[B0bber]

Thanks to all for the quick responses...

Thorne, I've edited the original post to include the images that aren't too wide for easy viewing in the thread. I'll resize pictures in the future before linking them (all of these pix, and more, are at http://b0bber.fileave.com/Kayak).

Chuck, I guess its somewhat of a hybrid dinghy/kayak since it is so narrow. We had planned on floating it with a temporary cover this past fall, but didn't get the chance before everyone had their pools winterized. It was to have been our first chance to evaluate all of the very concerns that you also stated. We decided that it wasn't that critical afterall, since it would likely be a solo boat anyway and would get plenty of usage as a photo platform.

Woxbox and AJZimm, Thanks for the thoughts and ideas! Dacron, Cotton Duck, Nylon, and even PVC are all common Skin on Frame (SOF) coverings. Yostwerks, Rockywoods, Skinboat and many other sites I've found display these options. But even the sites that show using Nylon, don't discuss adhesion of anything on top of that material; and they don't show the final trimming close enough in any gallery pictures to provide insight into what others have done.

As I mentioned, this boat will be used for light (relatively calm water) fishing and wildlife photography (read "quiet water") - Sailing will be a tertiary option. But, this boat will definitely be in marshs and backwater coves that have all kinds of semi-submerged hazards. I am expecting that the Cordura nylon especially in >1000D cloth would be some of the most puncture and cut resistant material available, that is why we are looking at that choice. Afterall, there are a lot more options for hiking boots (and the like) in Cordura than there are in Dacron. But, I think I'd have the same adhesion problem over Dacron... its a PET material and I don't think that much bonds to Polyethlene.

It is specifically the seams (at stem, transom, and strake) that I want to hide... exposed staples just don't appeal to us. Until I can find a method to adhere something to the nylon, I can't remove screws that would hold any trim in place.

We may just have to live with the fasteners remaining in the trim pieces afterall; but that was one of the primary reasons for my posting here... to see if anyone has experience fastening over Nylon.

As an engineer, I tend to work out the details before starting the actual work. So if another opportunity arises to float this with a temp cover I'll take it. And if a better option is made known for a robust covering material that provides better choices for trimming, I'll definitely look into it. Time to check into Dacron further!

Thanks!
Bob

[B0bber]

Chuck,
I added another image link into the first post (second link in the message). This picture shows the side view.

Thanks again for your comments!

[Arko]

As far as fabric goes you could contact George Dyson at Dyson Baidarka and company. He has a good selection of materials for SOF covering. If you don't want to use, or can't get some duck, he has two very heavy service Dacron fabrics that would serve you well, though not original type covering. One of his fabrics I used on a east Canadian kayak replica and I will tell you that it is as tough as woodpecker lips.

[Woxbox]

Bob -- You can double up the aircraft dacron on the bottom of the boat if you feel the need. The glue used to fasten it is extremely tenacious, I never had the slightest problem with it. I also ran into sticks and rocks from time to time and never had a puncture. But what I appreciate most about the heat-shrink dacron is how easy it is to get a smooth, drum-tight cover on a boat.

[DGentry]

George Dyson can be reached at: gdyson@gmail.com
He lives in Bellingham, WA and sells fabric to SOF builders on a daily basis. He has a slew of great options.

Nylon will shrink a bit, with heat, but polyester fabrics (like Dacron) are more suited to that. Some are specifically made for heat shrinking. Nylon requires that you stretch it good and tight as you apply it. Nylon is generally tougher.

#10 cotton duck canvas is another standard SOF option.

It's quite possible to make the hull and decks from one piece of fabric, thus eliminating the need for staples and a rubrail. Of course, you'd need to sew it up the center of the deck and fasten it along the inside of the cockpit.
If you go with two pieces of fabric, or just want a rubrail, I suspect that you could use epoxy to fasten it to nylon fabric. However, decorative brass screws, contrasting with a dark stained wood, actually looks pretty darn good, imo.
Personally, I'd sew, rather than staple, the stem and stern, too.

Check out the forum at qajaqusa.org - and the archived articles in their newsletter "The Masik" - for lots of SOF info. You might also look at gaboats.com for more SOF ideas.

As for a sail rig, it appears to me that your deckridge is directly above the mast step - kind of precluding putting a mast there. Maybe I'm just seeing things wrong? Anyway, unless you also have a rudder and a leeboard, you are probably looking at a "downwind only" sailing rig. Something dead simple like a boomless sprit rig would likely be ideal, but there are many options. You likely won't need more than 25-35 sq ft of sail area, and that might be pushing it, depending on your skill, and the conditions.

Just my two cents worth. Looks like a fun project - post pics when you're done!

Dave

[B0bber]

Memorial Day Monday was a good day! I finally got a chance to wrap the frame in a polypro tarp and take it to the launch for some floatation trials. While the link won't show you both my Dad and I in the boat (no was one left to take the picture!) we did both end up taking it for a 2-up trek on the creek. He was in the stern and it rode about the same height in the water at the stern gunnwale/sheer as it had mid-ships in the video (about 4-1/2" from gunnwale/sheer to waterline) with just me in it.

http://s617.photobucket.com/albums/tt256/b0bber/?action=view&current=MVI_101 3.flv (http://s617.photobucket.com/albums/tt256/b0bber/?action=view&current=MVI_1013.flv)

It definitely is easy to get moving right along even with the "inefficient" oars from the 1950's! I actually got it to a point of creating a pretty respectable wake with Dad and I in it! FYI, I had wrapped the oars in stretch wrap before they get any worse, as they are in dire need of sealing and repair (dried out, bare and delaminating).

(FYI, I had to move my files from fileave to photobucket, my Norton 360 was telling me that the fileave site had security "issues".)

As of yesterday, I took the leap... I received two urethane kits from Spirit Line's Skin Boat Store and my Cordura shipped last Thursday (hope to see it by week's end). I chose to obtain mine from the Rain Shed - got their Uncoated 1000d in "Royal" (Blue, for the hull) and Silver (for the deck); see:

http://www.therainshed.com/fabrics/1000cordura.htm#Keprotecw/Kevlar.

I'm going to fix the alignment of the two stringer strips at the bow before I cover it... this is all too noticeable in the "bow on shot" picture that I have on photobucket:
http://s617.photobucket.com/albums/tt256/b0bber/?action=view&current=IMG_0550.jpg

and I'm afraid that it will make it harder to stretch the cloth properly/symmetrically too.

But, I'm definitely looking forward to getting it covered! Then I'll have to produce some trim work for the stem & keel, the shear rub rails, and the transom transitions. I'm considering sitka spruce (but am not sure that this will be my "final answer") with inlays of rounded section strips of HDPE, or nylon, set into dovetail grooves in the spruce. The inlays will add scuff resistance while hiding the fasteners used to anchor the trim. I plan on staking the inlays into the trim dovetails with a single stainless rollpin or screw at the bow; or maybe just making sure that the ends extend into reliefs in the stem and transom trim pieces. That way, I won't have to worry about dissimilar thermal expansion rates. My biggest concern is to get the HDPE or nylon material in 12' long pieces so there are no breaks in the middle.

I'll keep you informed of my progress!
Thanks again for a great site with helpful people!

Bob