Flag etiquette ?

[J. Dillon]

I have an old Chapman's 1949 edition. Regarding private signals when under sail. It states that they should be flown from the mizzen mast head on yawls & ketches and the US flag from the mizzen peak. 1/3 down if Marconi rig. )

Is this still valid in 2009 ?

JD

[Tom Robb]

Oh God, not again!

[Bob Cleek]

Yes and no. The national ensign should always be flown from the aftermost gaff peak when under sail. It is properly flown from a staff at the stern when not underway.

About the time gaff rig began to wane, they flew the ensign from the aftermost leech of non-gaff rigs, about a third of the way down, as your edition of Chapman's indicates. This was cumbersome to rig, tended to chafe the leech, and, well, just looked stupid a third of the way down and even more stupid all the way up. While the original practice remains correct with gaff rigs, it has become accepted practice to fly the national ensign from a staff at the stern, as with power boats without sails, on boats without gaff booms, even while underway.

BTW, a pet peeve: The United States "Yacht ensign" (Stars and Stripes with a fouled anchor and stars) is, technically, NOT the "National Ensign" which is the standard Stars and Stripes. It WAS, in fact, merely a signal flag once approved for use by yachts entering US ports to indicate to the customs authorities that they were yachts exempt from customs inspection. (Don't you just wish it was that easy today! LOL) This officially recognized signal was abolished about twenty years ago and today the "yacht ensign" has no official purpose whatsoever. You might as well be flying one of those silly "battleaxe aboard," "martini glass cocktail time," or pirate skull and crossbones pennants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensign_of_the_United_States

Of course, anybody can fly whatever they want off their boat and it often serves a valuable purpose. Remember, improper flag ettiquette, observable at a distance, is the first indication the vessel in question is likely under the command of a total idiot.

[JimConlin]

So, oh wise ones, what is right for a marconi cat-yawl. The mizzen overhangs aft, so I can't do something on the counter.
http://www.oceannavigator.com/Media/PublicationsArticle/175/33789_16b.jpg

[andrewe]

A few years go a guy sailing down the English channel was passed by 3 French Navy patrol boats. The weather was filthy and raining hard, so he was well covered up at the helm. As the first boat passed he dipped his (British) ensign. A door opened in the wheelhouse and a figure was seen stumbling aft, putting on a oilskin, to return the signal. With nothing else to do, our man dipped for the second boat,same thing happened, though it took a bit longer.
When he dipped for the third boat, there was a slight pause, then the wheelhouse port opened and a hand came out making a single digit salute. He was left with the impression they might have been talking to each other.....
IIRR It might have been Mike Payson, who´s cartoons have been in Pratical Boat Owner and Yachting World for many years.
A

On my little double ender I fly the ensign off the leach, about a foot above the boom. ( Gunter rig)

[James McMullen]

Yet another reason why yawls kick ass!

Definitely fly it from the mizzen mast. What? You don't have a mizzen mast? You poor dears aren't getting all the goody out of life.

[JimConlin]

Yet another reason why yawls kick ass!

Definitely fly it from the mizzen mast. What? You don't have a mizzen mast? You poor dears aren't getting all the goody out of life.

Sorry to be dull. Where?

[James McMullen]

Uh. . .<sheepishly> :o. . . .actually I don't fly a national ensign. I'm not comfortable with using my boat as an expression of jingoistic nationalism. I was just using this thread as an excuse to give mad props to my favorite boat rig. But if I did fly an ensign, I would fly it from the top of my mizzen mast, just because I can. Neener, neener, you poor one-sticker sailors! :p

[SchoonerRat]

Uh. . .<sheepishly> :o. . . .actually I don't fly a national ensign. I'm not comfortable with using my boat as an expression of jingoistic nationalism. I was just using this thread as an excuse to give mad props to my favorite boat rig. But if I did fly an ensign, I would fly it from the top of my mizzen mast, just because I can. Neener, neener, you poor one-sticker sailors! :p
While I do applaud your sentiment and and commend you for taking a proper step in the right direction by going to 2 sticks, I must point out that you still have your masts on backwards.

[Michael Beckman]

While I do applaud your sentiment and and commend you for taking a proper step in the right direction by going to 2 sticks, I must point out that you still have your masts on backwards.

Actually, you're both not there.

Here is the proper rig. Two dipping lugs, with a standing lug mizzen. (note: you may need a very large crew to sail)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4gPfG4jYHQk/SDN4sB-_BVI/AAAAAAAAE8s/s8mWzCnMrkw/s800/IMG_9323.JPG
(thats me steering to 1st place in the Pacific Challenge sailing race last May)

[BarnacleGrim]

How exactly do you dip the ensign when flying it from the stern?

Now, if I'd fly the ensign from the backstay when under way I could use the topping lift as a flag halyard and dip as much as I want, but I don't think it would look good on my Folkboat...

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/fosterhere/Tidbit/P1010198.jpg

Correct ????

[Thorne]

...

About the time gaff rig began to wane, they flew the ensign from the aftermost leech of non-gaff rigs, about a third of the way down, as your edition of Chapman's indicates. This was cumbersome to rig, tended to chafe the leech, and, well, just looked stupid a third of the way down and even more stupid all the way up. While the original practice remains correct with gaff rigs, it has become accepted practice to fly the national ensign from a staff at the stern, as with power boats without sails, on boats without gaff booms, even while underway.

...

Joe, I sorta agree with Bob here that it does look funny -- but that's also where I flew the US flag on my San Juan 21 when I cruised the San Juans and up to Nanaimo. Chapman said it, so I did it.

From my personal perspective, flag etiquette seems to be one of those things in transistion -- while the books say one thing, the practice seems to indicate another == just as Bob points out above, many people seem to fly the flag on a staff on the transom area whether underway or not.

However, enough of the standards exist that flying other flags can get a rise, or at least a roll o' the eyes, from older sailors. I do some reenactment-style sailing where we fly other flags -- but we are in costume and so are the boats, so perhaps it doesn't "count"?

So at some events I'll fly something other than the US Flag on the transom (rudderhead mount) of my 16' dory skiff, but at most I've now taken to only flying the US flag at that location == particularly if flying other flags from the masthead.

What I regard as being mostly correct. If the US flag were attached to the leech of the sail, the topping lift would have it pinned part of the time, and be fouled by it the rest of the time -
http://www.luckhardt.com/me-reach-gunk08.jpg

Incorrect except all the other boats were flying "other" flags also, plus being in costume at a private event on remote waters. This group also has an old tradition of sailing with everyone flying the same colors, but then doing a quick flag change when loading up the water cannons or buckets for a sneak attack -
http://www.luckhardt.com/ST07/images/11.jpg

[Tom Robb]

QED

[Mad Scientist]

How exactly do you dip the ensign when flying it from the stern?


If it's on a suitably-long flagstaff with a ahlyard, pulley block, etc., then it gets dipped in the usual way.
If your ensign is attached to a short flagstaff and can't be 'dipped' with a halyard, the 'correct' procedure is to lift the staff out of the mount and 'dip' it by tilting it aft, then replacing it in the mount...as if anything can ever be perfectly 'correct' in flag etiquette.

Then there was the Japanese trawler whose 'ensign' was an appropriately-painted piece of sheet metal bolted to the ensign staff :D

Tom