flattening varnish

[leaotis]

I plan on brushing 2 part varnish on a strip hull but don't want it to be shiny. I don't think there are any exterior grade satin/flat/matte varnishes.

Mr Smasher suggest flattening paint by rubbing down with pumice on a hard felt pad. Would this make varnish dull or lessen it's transparency?

Thanks

[David G]

Anything you do to flatten a finish will make it dull and lessen its transparency. That's how a lesser gloss is achieved. Or am I missing some distinction?

If your marine spar varnish of choice doesn't offer a "satin" or other lesser-gloss finish (and most don't, for good reason), you're left with basically two choices.

A) Add flatting paste to your varnish. Be sure to keep it well stirred, so the paste doesn't settle. This product is small flakes of crap in suspension, and will make it less glossy by diffusing/scattering the reflection of light. Not sure if this is really an option for the 2-part finishes... may be contraindicated. Check with manufacturer.

B) Rub out your final coat with something. Various options for this. Steel wool/bronze wool is one. Pumice or rottenstone is another. Proprietary rubbing compounds are another. There are others, but - not having tried them myself - I won't mention them. I understand - from the one person I know who's tried rubbing out 2-part varnishes - that it's harder to get and even sheen than with the same process on normal spar varnish.

As you might have gathered, I'm not a fan of flattening varnish. Lots of extra work (for option B), and they don't hold up as well, nor look as nice. Why do you want to do so?

Have you considered Paint? Sikkens Cetol Marine?


"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye" -- Miss Piggy

[leaotis]

I'm building a strip planked boat that will be lightly glassed. I'd like to have it bright but I'm not a fan of shinny wooden boats. I recently build some speaker boxes that I finished with blond shellac and liked the rich look. I'd like a similar look with this boat or at least my imagination tells me I do.

Looks like flattening varnish is more difficult than paint.

[StevenBauer]

Just use it for a year or so and the too shininess will be gone. ;)



Steven

[Nicholas Scheuer]

You do need to cover bare epoxy/fiberglass or Polester/fiberglass laminate with a UV-resistant finish. Varnish is fine, as long as it's a UV-restintant compound.

Moby Nick

[MiddleAgesMan]

I will be flattening my high gloss two-part varnish by sanding with either 600 or 800 grit wet/dray sandpaper (I forgot which grit but will look it up before I do it). Like the OP, I like my bright work slick and smooth but not too shiny. This does not affect the clarity of the finish, just the surface sheen. It can be easily undone by moving up to finer and finer paper and a final buffing. No additives, just elbow grease.

[David G]

MAM,

When you say it does not affect the clarity of the finish, do you mean - as opposed to flatting paste, which embeds tiny particles throughout the thickness of the film? I'd agree, and as you say, you can fine tune it by using different grits. If you mean, though, that you'll be able to gaze deeply into the seemingly infinite depths of a beautiful varnish finish... no. The clarity (in that sense, anyway) is affected by scuffing the finish with any sort of abrasive.


"He spoke with more claret then clarity"

[Stephen]

Epifanes makes single and two-part satin and matt finishes.
http://www.epifanes.com/home.htm

[leaotis]

Epifanes makes single and two-part satin and matt finishes.

...using a product designed for the intended purpose is appealing. I guess I'd miss out on some sanding but I can cope with that.

Does anyone have any experience with exterior grade satin varnish?

[David G]

leaotis,

I haven't tried any of the softer sheen 2-part finishes. My understanding from those who have is that they seem to not last quite as long. The suspicion seems to be, though, that the flattening seems to protect the underlying substrate (wood) from UV better. I get the impression that it's just a hunch, barely noticable, and probably only verifiable with controlled testing.

On the plus side, a flatter finish will show scuffs & such less - and have less reflective glare on a sunny day.


"That man is the richest whose pleasures are the cheapest" -- Thoreau

[leaotis]

Thanks David, perhaps the thing to do is use gloss for the first several coats and then satin on top.

[ChaseKenyon]

I'm building a strip planked boat that will be lightly glassed. I'd like to have it bright but I'm not a fan of shinny wooden boats. I recently build some speaker boxes that I finished with blond shellac and liked the rich look. I'd like a similar look with this boat or at least my imagination tells me I do.

Looks like flattening varnish is more difficult than paint.

leaotis

Your resin and glue are probably not UV resistant. I have used on bright finished WEST epoxy basically the same technique that GarWood used on most of their Pre-WWII top of the line runabouts.

Asuming your hull will be sanded and smoothed fair before the varnish........Standard 7 to 12 coats of UV resistant varnish. Sand with 220 after each coat. Sand every third coat with 150 first to level it (long board recommended). and same for last but final two coats. After curing the final coat for one week, bake it in the sun as long as surface temp doies not go over say 90 degrrees F or so. Sand with 180 on long board, then 220 then 320. If going for gloss go all the way to 800 and then polish with rottenstone. If going for Satin, as the gar woods were done on the decks, go to fine pumice after the 320. Then shine up a bit to personal taste with rotten stone.

The trick here is to get the shine into the layers of the varnish as that is one of the key elements of the UV protection. Once that is acheived then you can go for semi gloss or satin as you like.

I have used this extra step mehthod for over 30 years and have never had to strip and redo to wood one of my varnish jobs. I use the same technique to a great degree on my violins. on my website are jpictures of a cello. It looks like a mirror. In reality it is a fine satin finish up close. As a Fabricator of (mostly high end commercial) solid surface counters I use a similar technique. Most Fabs will sand down to 320 and then use a brown scotch pad for a matte finish. Problem is on anything over 8 fto long at a low angle in the right light you will see al kinds of dips and divots in the surface. I go down all the way to 800 or even 1200 to amke sure my top has a perfect smooth mirror finish. Then for ssatin I buff down with grey or for matte with brown scotch pads. End result my thrity foot serving counter at the Lynn MA Senior Center dining room looks satin/matte when you are next to it. But when you walk through the fornt door form 25 ft away it looks like a mirror finish. The satin surface is easy to maintain and once done for presentation like this or UV like you need you never loose the sh7ine beneath the satin.

Extra steps, yeas but not as much time as one would think for a finish that will last and last with basic normal up keep.

Chase:D

[ChaseKenyon]

P . S. A satin varnish or clear/semi clear finish will for the above reasons never equal the UV protection of a proper gloss finish. Even Bristol or Deks Ole will work better with two or three gloss coats on top then and only then satin coat to tone it down.

CHase

[Lew Barrett]

P . S. A satin varnish or clear/semi clear finish will for the above reasons never equal the UV protection of a proper gloss finish. Even Bristol or Deks Ole will work better with two or three gloss coats on top then and only then satin coat to tone it down.

CHase

I second this. For some reason, gloss finishes last better. Perhaps their reflectivity has to do with it. In any case, I'd suggest you learn to enjoy the fleeting moment of shine. It passes quickly enough.

If you must, build with gloss and use the matte Epifanes product for the top coats as has been suggested.

I've heard it suggested that cutting the final finish with pumice, wet dry etc. also shortens the life of a finish, but can't confirm that personally as I've never tried it. I understand that some runabout refinishers will sand a finish all the way to 2000 grit to remove small imperfections, then rub the finish out with polishing compound. But it seems an awfully painful, low payback process to me
Perhaps Pat can comment on this. After a few years of maintaining a finish on a driver boat, you come to realize that longevity is a prime consideration in any finish you apply.

[Sailman58]

Some years ago this topic came up with respect to a Chesapeake Light Craft boat that had been prototyped in their shop and I was considering building. As has been said, most, if not all satin varnishes do not contain UV inhibitors. Their solution was to build up the coat with gloss varnish, then add a top coat of satin.

Ron