leg-o-mutton sail window

[Ron Paro]

Is there a downside to installing a flexible plastic window in a sprit-boomed leg-o-mutton main sail? I know that this is not traditional, but it seems that increasing visibility with less contorsions would be a good thing. Would I need to avoid a fold in the window when stowing the sail into its bag?

Thanks - Ron

[StevenBauer]

Sailrite sells a kit for $10.50, Ron.
There is even a little instruction video. :)


http://www.sailrite.com/Window-Kit-12-x-54?sc=2&category=38



Steven

[Ron Paro]

Hi Steven, yeah, I was looking at the Sailrite window kit when I started thinking about this. Then I looked at my pictures from last summer's Small Reach Regatta, and noticed that I did not see any windows in any of the sails there. Is there a reason other than aesthetics not to put a window in a small boat sail?

[Todd Bradshaw]

They tend to be dimensionally less stable than the Dacron, so the sail's shape may not be quite as good in that area, tear strength is probably less, they stiffen with age and fog if stored damp - but none of these things is usually a horrible problem if you really need to see. Best bet is to go sailing and take a pencil with you, to mark the locations of the corners while the sail is actually being used. When you install it, you always want to stick the vinyl to the sail with sail tape, and/or sew it down before you cut the hole in the Dacron. There is less chance of distorting the shape that way.

It is a good idea to avoid folding the vinyl if possible, but sometimes it can't be avoided. It's obviously not the nicest looking thing you can do to a traditional sail, but they can have their advantages at times.

[Ron Paro]

Thanks Todd, this is the sort of information I was looking for. With the clew being higher then the tack on the leg-o-mutton, I don't think the window would need to be very large at all to help quite a bit. The tack is only a few inches from the top of the deck rail on my skiff, and I've had a couple of embarassingly close calls in some crowded lake conditions.

Another alternative I have been thinking of is to build a new mast about four inches longer than plan and get the sail a little higher on the mast. I would still have to duck down to see under in some situations, but it would improve visibility. I just don't know if having the sail set higher would negatively impact stability too much.

[rbgarr]

Todd,

I watched the Sailrite video but it didn't mention how close you can safely put a window toward the tack or foot of a sail, in my case a jib. I'd like to place one just above deck level and aft of the sailmaker's insignia at the foot of the sail, but it would be crossing a number of seams there. The window there now works for me only when heeling and I'm sitting on the sidedeck, a position I don't often find myself in. Any hints?

Sorry for the highjack, but Todd doesn't have PM or e-mail listed.

Thanks-

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vsrq1l.jpg

[Ron Paro]

I don't see this as a highjack, I was hoping for additional discussion on the topic of visibility while under sail in general. Thanks.

[Ron Paro]

When I sit on the sole, it really is not bad, but I prefer to sit on the side benches I have added just aft of the center thwart. Then I use a tiller extension, and the hull trim is much better. Here I am sitting on the sole, before I added the side benches and tiller extension...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XuaT2XHyCMw/RpA7BSe7AjI/AAAAAAAAAXc/ZjT8d74Hc8I/s400/IMG_3523.JPG

I assume that I would need to avoid the tack patches if I do install a small window. The sailrite video says that it is okay to have the window over a seam. It shows installing a window about six inches up from the foot hem.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XuaT2XHyCMw/SBU7kpo-jXI/AAAAAAAAAX0/4V9ckQ_Mlg8/s400/Jimmy+Skiff+Bow+Wigeon+Distance.jpg

[Todd Bradshaw]

First of all, as far as my repair business went, for the twenty-five-odd years when I went after that side of the business and did a lot of them, windows don't seem to prevent a lot of liability and seldom seemed to screw up the shape of sails badly. Most that needed replacement had simply aged to the point that the vinyl was cracked, foggy or turning kind of brown and/or getting stiff. I assume it loses its plasticizer over the years or some other chemical mumbo-jumbo.

If possible, it's always nice to avoid crossing seams with windows, but once in a while, you have no choice. These are the instances where you're most likely to cause a bit of distortion or lumpiness in the sail's shape, especially on radial cuts where the different panels have their weaves (and stability) pointed in different directions and you're bridging them with one hunk of vinyl which has uniform stability, or lack of it, in all directions. You do want to avoid cutting into the tack (or other) patches for strength reasons.

In an area where several panels come together (radial cut or not) it may be a better idea to divide the overall shape of the window into two or three parts, with each piece on a separate sail panel and keep the edges of these sub-windows 3/4" or so away from the seams. It tends to distort the shape less, maintains at least a bit more strength and looks better.

If possible, I try to radius the corners of windows a little bit, rather than having some sort of square pointed corners. It maintains a bit more tear-strength in the Dacron at the window corner cut-outs. The drawback to this is that on a finished, rolled-up sail made from fairly stiff cloth, it can make running it through the sewing machine a nightmare when you have to turn a corner while sewing around the window perimeter. In those cases, square, or pointed, corners may be the only way to go. You roll the sail scroll-style, sew the top and bottom sides of the window and then re-roll your scroll the other direction for sewing access to the window's front and back. On soft cloth, sewing all the way around a window with radiused corners in one shot isn't a problem.

I firmly believe the biggest challenge to window installers is simply getting it in the right spot. It's no fun to do a nice installation and then find out on the water that it would have been a lot better 8" father forward, aft, up or down (been there, done that). That's why I suggest going sailing with a pencil or some tape and marking the potential location while the sail is actually in use.

[Ron Paro]

Todd, I appreciate your insight and benefiting from your experience. I will keep your advice in mind if I do decide to install a window. Sailrite now sells a protectorant which is supposed to help preserve the placticizer, but I wouldn't even be too concerned about having to replace the window every few years if needed, as I built the sail from a Sailrite kit in the first place.

I think with good planning, and an on water session, I can get the window in a good location and avoid the fold and seams. I keep the sail in a bag, always after cleaning and drying, so I think I should get a pretty good lifetime from the plastic.

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi Ron
I have a window in Bagger's sail and hardly ever consciously use it, it is a bit of a nuisance to be carefull of when folding the sail, if it breaks some day I think ill just replace it with a square of sail cloth.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/194/491933020_2831403fa8.jpg?v=1178847505

[Ron Paro]

Hi Dan, good to hear from you. Did you get out iceboat sailing this year?

I agree that it would be unlikely to consciously look though the window much at all. However, I would think that it would help to see, even if peripherally, something that you really didn't want to be too close to.

Perhaps I am just looking for a little boat project to play with while I can't be out sailing. Really this visibility thing was more of an issue my first season than it was last year. Experience certainly helps. I can always just drop the sail and row when it gets too 'tight'. It's not as if I need to round a leeward marker with a tight pack of Jimmy Skiffs or anything. :rolleyes:

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi Dan, good to hear from you. Did you get out iceboat sailing this year?

. :rolleyes:

Hopeing to this Sunday right after church, 12:00 pm +- over in Georgetown Ma. Pentucket Pond. Probably be sailing till 5:00 if the wind and ice hold, stop by if you like
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com