Air temp? Water temp? When can I start sailing?

[sealover]

Sorry for the silly newbie question, but when would you recommend I head out?

8' sailing dinghy, but previous owner/builder said it's rigged so that if I get into trouble I let go of the line and the sail swings around like a weathervane and the boat stays upright. Pretty sure I could keep myself out of the water. I'd be on a small lake (I'd never be more than 150 yards from a shore)

Do you recommend waiting until the water is warm enough to not mind falling in? Or can I go out as soon as the air temperature is decent? I guess what I'm asking is if we get a sunny 65 degree day in March (when the water temperature would still be in the 40's) is it advisable to go out?

I'm itching to try this new boat!

Thanks!

[S.V. Airlie]

Sorry for the silly newbie question, but when would you recommend I head out?

8' sailing dinghy, but previous owner/builder said it's rigged so that if I get into trouble I let go of the line and the sail swings around like a weathervane and the boat stays upright. Pretty sure I could keep myself out of the water. I'd be on a small lake (I'd never be more than 150 yards from a shore)

Do you recommend waiting until the water is warm enough to not mind falling in? Or can I go out as soon as the air temperature is decent? I guess what I'm asking is if we get a sunny 65 degree day in March (when the water temperature would still be in the 40's) is it advisable to go out?

I'm itching to try this new boat!

Thanks!

well, there are small boats..8' out at Newport right now. (AND, it is cold ) I think it depends on what you wear. Most seem to be wearing wetsuits.

[Hwyl]

No, water temp is an issue, unless you wear a wet sauit or have rescue readily at hand.

The previous owner is only partly correct, the sheet may jam or you may get your body in the way of the boom, both classic capsize scenarios

[George Roberts]

Swimming 150yds in 40 degree water is not the most pleasant of tasks.

A drysuit may make sitting still in the water reasonable. Don't forget neoprene for your hands, feet, and head.

---

I used to go paddling until the water got hard. Started up again as soon as the ice got rotten.

[DGentry]

That's a judgement call for anyone. Of course, it helps to have experience to make that judgement, but . . . .

You need to be able to make a realistic assessment of both the conditions and your own abilities.

Some things to consider:
Do you know how to swim?
Do you know how to sail?
How hard is the wind blowing?
Do you know how to right a capsized dinghy (and not just in theory)?
Do you have the ability to get back into your swamped dinghy? How about in waves while you are numb from hypothermia?
Does your boat have (adequate) floatation?
Are you dressed for immersion?


Basically, it doesn't matter much what the air temp is if you're in the water. Water in the 40's is brutal and deadly. Always dress for immersion - a thick neoprene "farmer john" wetsuit, that fits well (i.e. tight), is a good start (but won't keep you alive for very long in water that cold). You can often find these pretty cheap at pawn shops or secondhand stores, and, always, on ebay. The thicker the better - 2&3mm suits are for summer.

If the day is nice, the winds are light, you stay close to shore, and you are prepared for the water temps, then maybe you could go putz around. But learning to sail a dinghy often results in inadvertent capsizing, and if you're not prepared for this, then you could die. Lots of people die a hundred yards from shore.

BTW, learn how to handle a capsized dinghy in controlled conditions very close to shore. Warm water is nice, too . . . lots of indoor pools, depending on your locale, let kayakers practice rolls - your 8' dinghy shouldn't be an issue (sans mast) there.

Good luck, have fun, be careful.
Dave

[LeeG]

you should know the risk of immersion in cold water before relying on your sailing skills to keep you upright and in the boat. Know as in having had the experience of being in very cold water and what it took to function.

If you do not have a pfd on, are unfamiliar with swimming in cold water and are 100yds from shore there's a good chance you'd die in sub 50 degree water attempting to swim ashore without immersion gear such as a wetsuit/drysuit.

Look through this video to see how important pfds are. While they will won't prevent debilitation through rapid heat loss they will help keep your head above water which is a good thing as gasp reflex can cause you to inhale a lungful of water pretty much ending things in seconds.

Spring time is a common time folks get into trouble when the air is comfortable and the water is cold. Google the topic and you'll find people being rescued all over the country when the weather gets nice and the water hasn't warmed up. "man rescued from overturned kayak", canoe, dinghy, etc.

My $.02 is to wait until the water is warmer if you're alone and don't have cold water immersion gear like a drysuit. Learning sailing, cold water immersion AND self-rescue on the same day is stacking the deck.

Falling into 40 water without immersion gear(especially head) is like having an accident on the freeway without wearing a seatbelt. If someone gets you out in a few minutes you'll be cold but ok,,if you're on your own everything will stop working in a few minutes ,,even though you won't technically be hypothermic your ability to think and function well will be screwed with so much that affecting your own self-rescue will be serverely compromised. Having ones unprotected (neoprene,hood) head immersed repeatedly in sub 50 degree water can cause vertigo in some people. I've seen it happen to a strong young white water paddler in a sea kayak course, even though he was wearing a wetsuit, multiple immersion in 48degree water left him walking like a drunk for 5minutes after capsizing and swiming to shore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1xohI3B4Uc

http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm

Persons boating in the cold water months should be thoroughly skilled in rescue and self-rescue techniques. Most accidents involve small boats which with practice, can be righted and re-entered. Most boats, even filled with water, will support the weight of its occupants. If the boat has capsized and cannot be made right, climb on top of it.

note on the "survival times" chart on the above page- I wouldn't use it as any kind of guideline regarding the time you have to affect a rescue. If your hands become numb and useless in five minutes of immersion in 50degree water,,that's your survival time, if you get vertigo after your head gets dunked continuously in the water for two minutes,,that's your survival time. Those charts are all based on the assumption the hand of God will come down and pluck you out of the water, if he's busy those charts are what someone else will refer to the time you had left.
Sorry for the heavy handed manner but I kayaked in the winter a fair bit and taught sea kayaking. The rescue/incident reports read the same every year.


http://www.abc2news.com/news/local/story/Kayaker-Survives-Rescue/FMg4mIeiNUi-uslfY5Z-xA.cspx

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2009/01/14/8021426-ap.html

http://www.ncangler.com/forums/f100/boating-tragedy-chesapeake-bay-12036.html

[TerryLL]

Here's the data on survival in 40-degee water from the Office of Boating Safety (not wearing a survival suit but wearing a PFD).

Loss of dexterity in under 5 minutes.
Exhaustion and loss of consciousness in 15-30 minutes.
Survival time 30-90 minutes.

If you must go out, stay really close to shore, and wear at least a wetsuit. If you dump 150 yards out, then spend 5 minutes trying to recover, then decide to swim for it, you probably won't make it.

[JimConlin]

In a dinghy, with the water temp under 50, i would sail without a drysuit only if there were some kind of rescue launch.

[james burt]

i help out teaching sailing at the local lake and the classes are in early may,
north carolina,
we start our races on the 3rd w/e in march.
our rule of thumb for the lake here is a total of 120, that's air and water temp.
maybe add a few if the wind is up.
just our guidelines, but we have really good weather here, about 45 weeks a year.

[Thorne]

Sealover, update your profile to show your location. Go to USER CP in the upper left corner of this page, then click on the left to EDIT YOUR DETAILS.

If you are in Australia, plenty warm to sail right now...

Otherwise, I like the calculation by James above, adding air and water temps.

If you will be trying the boat out in a small marina or pond, you just need to be able to swim or wade to shore. Best to get someone to buddy-boat with you, and they should have a cellphone and camera to capture the fun...

[LeeG]

Here's the data on survival in 40-degee water from the Office of Boating Safety (not wearing a survival suit but wearing a PFD).

Loss of dexterity in under 5 minutes.
Exhaustion and loss of consciousness in 15-30 minutes.
Survival time 30-90 minutes.

If you must go out, stay really close to shore, and wear at least a wetsuit. If you dump 150 yards out, then spend 5 minutes trying to recover, then decide to swim for it, you probably won't make it.



I'd suggest getting a bucket of water with 50degree water immersing ones arm up to the elbow and seeing how that affects dexterity. Pretty sure 40degree water would become painful in a minute.

[LeeG]

I'd much rather be in 60degree water with 60degree air than 50 degree water and 70 degree air if I didn't have a wetsuit on.

If a person has not put their body in that kind of water and attempted the actual self-rescues they are betting a lot on how they will react.

Like I mentioned earlier we had a 225lb lean whitewater paddler in a sheltered inlet where the water was 48degrees. We had a setup where folks were being videotaped paddling 150' towards the dock, stopping, performing basic maneuvers then rolling. He was wearing a 5mm. wetsuit, drytop, no beanie or hood. He did all of the maneuvers then proceded to roll as instructed. After three rolls with stops inbetween he attempted a hand roll unsuccessfully three times then wet-exited. His head was under water less than 30 seconds spread over three minutes and never more than about five seconds at a time.

The shore was 30' away. He swam to shore and proceeded to crash and stumble up through the underbrush the short 50' distance to level ground like a drunk. Later he said he had never experienced vertigo like that, even on the river. Basically he was comfortable and warm in the kayak after paddling around for 30min, the conditions were benign except for the temps but the hit of cold water into the ear canal totally screwed with balance.

I had offered him one of the beanies/hoods I had with me and he said "no I'm fine". By this time I had three extra beanies/hoods because I'd seen enough "no,I'm fine" when folks started their rescues only to discover that they really weren't. Falling into 50degree water without head covering and pfd is kind of like falling off a bike,,everyone does it sometime. Sometimes it's just skin and bruises, sometimes it's just a broken collar bone, sometimes it's a heinous concussion with long term consequences. Falling into 40 degree water without head covering and wearing a dry suit is just as bad. When the noggin is cooled real fast with cold water going in the ears things get dificult in seconds.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Predicting how someone will react when dropped into cold water is not difficult - it's impossible.

All of what LeeG says is true - but not for everybody - some people react very badly to cold water - headaches, staggers et al. others can ignore the cold and still function rationally for many minutes.

Which group are you in?

[TerryLL]

I'd suggest getting a bucket of water with 50degree water immersing ones arm up to the elbow and seeing how that affects dexterity. Pretty sure 40degree water would become painful in a minute.

Lee,

The physiological response that leads to loss of dexterity is very much accelerated when the entire body is subjected to cold shock. Circulation shuts down to the extremities almost immediately as the body attempts to protect the core. Sticking an arm in ice water might provide some idea of the discomfort, but dexterity will not be affected in the same way as full-body cold water immersion. A better example would be to fill the bathtub with ice water and climb in fully clothed. Have someone time how long it takes for your hands to turn into useless clubs, and pull you out when you can't get out on your own.

[SMARTINSEN]

Hypothermia is a bitch...then you die.


That being said, put on your PFD, and on a nice warm and relatively calm day first take her out rowing.

[DGentry]

A better example would be to fill the bathtub with ice water and climb in fully clothed. Have someone time how long it takes for your hands to turn into useless clubs, and pull you out when you can't get out on your own.


That doesn't sound very fun - or safe, depending on a number of factors.

I think we all agree that cold water is pretty darn dangerous and he'd be better off not getting into it by accident.

[LeeG]

Lee,

The physiological response that leads to loss of dexterity is very much accelerated when the entire body is subjected to cold shock. Circulation shuts down to the extremities almost immediately as the body attempts to protect the core. Sticking an arm in ice water might provide some idea of the discomfort, but dexterity will not be affected in the same way as full-body cold water immersion. A better example would be to fill the bathtub with ice water and climb in fully clothed. Have someone time how long it takes for your hands to turn into useless clubs, and pull you out when you can't get out on your own.

I agree 100%, I figure if someone is willing to start experimenting they'd be more willing to put a limb in 40 degree water than their whole body and start a more practical process than looking at charts or soliciting opinons. When I did it I discovered I wasn't willing to leave my hand in the water for more than a minute. I don't learn well from reading so getting wet worked best for me.

The beef I have with the published data is that it's still not adequate given no mention of cold water immersion on the head. The head has an important organ for running the show. Get a person in a dry suit wearing neoprene gloves and booties then take them to your bath tub full of ice,,and have them immerse their head for as long as they can,,,coming up for air,,and I bet they will give up the experiment long before their limbs become useless clubs.

That's one of the challenges for picking immersion clothing when you aren't immersed for the activity. The best head gear for immersion is awful for out of water activity and the most common head gear for cold air isn't always worn or good for immersion. But no head covering in very cold water can be as critical as no pfd or wet/dry suit if the head can't think straight or find the horizon.

[sealover]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. As far as me, I ride a motorcycle well into the low 20's (Fahrenheit) but I have a lot of gear all over me. I don't own a wetsuit or drysuit, I have no boat dumping experience, only about 20 minutes of sailing experience, and while I'm relatively young and healthy -- I'm no athlete. I think I'll just wait until the water is 60. It's not a very deep lake so it should warm up quickly. If I see a day when there are lots of others out there (fishing, boating -- whatever) I'll consider going out a bit earlier, but only in minimal wind. I'm in York, Pennsylvania. Thank you for all the replies.

[TerryLL]

Being out in cold weather fully dressed bears no resemblance to being immersed in cold water. Completely different situation. I think you're making the right decision to wait for warmer water temps. Go out this summer and dump your boat and practice self-recovery.

[Robert W. Long]

I am a water guy, always have been. Last summer I capsized my kayak in the estuary here. 45 degree water, mid summer, sunny warm. Wearing a t shirt and bathing suit I was able to swim and tow my boat to shore, maybe a hundred yards. I survived and would not want to do it again. I highly second the advice here from others.:)

[gert]

I have no boat dumping experience, only about 20 minutes of sailing experience

Wait till summer; get about a houndred hrs in.

Then next fall go fer it.

Early fall realy is the best.

[James McMullen]

150 yards from shore might as well be 150 miles from shore in 40 degree water if you don't have a wetsuit or drysuit on. Get a wetsuit or drysuit and go for a swim--then decide if you enjoyed the experience enough to add learning to sail on top of everything else.

For what it's worth, I've been sailing three times so far this February--but only in big boats with ballast keels, not capsizable dinghies. I wouldn't go sailing this time of year in a small boat without immersion gear on.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

The original question was "When can I start Sailing?"

In the UK the standard advice is:-

Get along to your local dinghy club and join the beginners course - that way you'll be out with like minded people who know the local conditions.

[Ian McColgin]

Judging from the phrasing of the question coupled with the normal rational drill of teaching a new sailor which includes capsize drill, don't even think of going out in weather you can't swim for an hour or so in. Period.

There are so many ways to capsize even if you do release the sail in a timely way, so much to learn.

Wait till the warm and get some intelligent instruction.

G'luck

[sealover]

The local sailing club is offering their sailing school in "May, June, or July 2009" and I'm on the signup list once they decide the date. I don't know of a local dinghy club (not a lot of water around here) but I'll see what I can find.

[neilm]

Rowing is much safer in the Winter and it keeps you warm.

[sealover]

Now there's something I didn't think of... Leave the mast and sail at home and install the oarlocks and go rowing. Get a better feel for the boat (and make sure it floats!) That may curb my waterlust for a while. Or fuel it. hmm... Good suggestion though!

[LeeG]

The original question was "When can I start Sailing?"

In the UK the standard advice is:-

Get along to your local dinghy club and join the beginners course - that way you'll be out with like minded people who know the local conditions.

much too practical

[Brian Palmer]

Sealover,

Around here, I would probably wait until May if I were you. At the state parks, there will be other boats out on the water, including the park rangers. Just in case.:)

Brian

[sealover]

I suppose I can wait. :) Thanks for all the advice.