What to do if...

[novapamela]

Hi all,

I'm back for more. You give such helpful and amusing answers I always start here first! You make research a joy. Thank you. And thank you in advance for forgiving my ignorance.

What is the protocol for my theoretical, older (30-40 years), 42' schooner if her captain's asleep on the job, has no other crew, and she's dragging anchor toward a rock island in high wind. What comes first? Also, I know my sails, but where is the engine/engine hatch on a schooner (remember I was a trawler girl)?:o Don't give up on me yet, I'm learning!

Cheers!

Pamela

[SchoonerRat]

First thing is the captain wakes up!!! Likely to the sound of his boat pounding on the rocks. If I was the skipper I doubt that I'd be sleeping much. More like sitting in the salon, maybe with my slickers on, and an alarm clock sitting next to me set for 5 or 10 minutes; playing prairie dog every time the thing went off.

As to the engine hatch, it depends on where the engine is. Most likely under the cockpit with access behind the companionway or through a quarter berth in a vessel that size, but there are no strict rules for its location.

[Woxbox]

I think this is all about the fear of things that go bump in the night.

Chances are the skipper would feel that first, gut-wrenching jolt -- which might or might not be associated with the sound of crunching wood or the shock resonating through the boat of something breaking -- while still asleep but it would register in his mind as though he was wide awake, a state which he would achieve so quickly he'd wonder after the fact if he had been asleep at all.

So if the schooner is dragging her anchor, it's a good chance that the rudder would take the first hit, producing more of a crunch.
But not necessarily, it's just as likely that the boat is heaving in the seas and the first contact would be the lead or iron keel dropping hard on the rocks. If this were the case, the skipper would be on his feet just long enough so that the second strike, as the boat drops down into the next trough, would knock him right back into his berth.

So he's going to start the engine to try to rescue himself and the boat? We can only hope that the rudder has not been shattered, and that it did not damage the propeller (which almost surely sits behind a semicircular cutout in the rudder) in the process.

[Ian McColgin]

The protocol is this better not be your first night aboard and presumably you've learned a bit. Most boats are laid out differently but it's unlikely that a schooner of that size will have an unusual auxillary engin installation - generally something small - 40 hp or less - under the cockpit-bridge deck area and operated by a cockpit consol that will have the starting and preheat (if needed) controls, whether key or buttons or whatever.

Presumably you're asking as things seem urgent enough that you don't want to go below to awaken the skipper. So, fire her up in neutral, look about to see if things seem clear, and slip her in gear. Between the dragging anchor and the engine at low bell, you might keep her nose into the wind and sea enough to see what's really up, especially if your skipper gets really up.

You do not want to apply enough power that you completely unload and start to over-run the anchor rode.

I've actually been in conditions with my old Goblin, an Alden 43' schooner, where the anchor started to drag in a sudden Strong Gale to Storm (Force 9 - 10, winds over 45 knots and a noxious fresh sea piling in) where the motor let me take enough strain off the anchor that we were ok. I had to steer a bit as she wanted to tack, what with being pushed at the stern and held at the nose, and it was a miserable 4 hours till dawn and I could think about what was next, but we hung on. It was just a bit scarey spending all that time with our boomkin about overhanging the Vineyard Have breakwater.

[Yeadon]

Cowering handle. Go straight for the handle. Hold tight.

[mmd]

Is this a dandified yacht or a true working schooner?

[Ian McColgin]

At that size, like Goblin of noble heritage, she's a yacht, dandified or not.

[Captain Intrepid]

At that size, like Goblin of noble heritage, she's a yacht, dandified or not.

Not so much. Small schooners like that were used around Newfoundland for fishing. I think they called em jack schooners.

[Lew Barrett]

In really bad conditions, high winds and poor holding, it's proper to hold an anchor watch. An anchor watch is a miserable thing to have, but that's the real protocol for such a situation. In the event, you would have a bit of warning when the anchor started to slip and could probably get the old man awake to help.

But let's say you were both dog tired and had for some unknown reason selected a nasty place to lay down the hook and it was not holding. Then Ian's advice is the key to success. Just get the Cap to show you some fundamental aspects of running the boat and getting her started. Learning how to start her in the dead of night in a howling wind won't cut it, so do the research now in broad daylight.

Rita rarely drags because I am a fanatic about setting the hook and staying with the boat under iffy circumstances, but I can't say it has never happened.

What has never happened is that I've been asleep at the switch when it has all gone to crap. A good skipper is aware of the circumstances his ship and crew are facing and shouldn't be sleeping through the gale off the rocky coast. His first responsibility is to the ship, not his zzzz's.

[SchoonerRat]

The original post indicates that the skipper is alone on the boat. Nobody to train on engine operation. Nobody to help with anchor watch. Dog tired or not, somebody has to keep the boat off the rocks. Anything more than short cat naps should be out of the question until it can be determined with some degree of certainty that the hook will not drag. In close proximity to a rocky lee shore with a good blow I'd take a good deal of convincing before even entertaining a thought of relaxing. The boats engine should be running and ready. On more than one occasion I have spent hours at anchor with transmission in forward at about 1/4 throttle to ease the strain on an anchor that I wasn't comfortable about.

[S.V. Airlie]

umm, been there done that. Of course, as I have lived on the boat for long enough, I may fall asleep but I subconsciously keep in tune with the sounds of the boat. So, in my dragging scenario, I may have been asleep but not for long..Umm, also had no engine working at the time but did have a second anchor.

[Uncle Duke]

If you are used to the boat and it's motion, then you will wake up in time - something won't "feel right" about the motion of the boat and you will be totally awake instantly, hopefully well before the boat is touching anything.

What comes first might be more scope to the anchor - give it lots more line, then do some very gentle 'snubs' to try to set it again. That is assuming, of course, that you have room to do that. If not, you are going to need the engine running ASAP and enough sense/luck to not run up over your own line.

Best idea, of course, is to not drag at all, and Jamie (Airlie) brings up a good point - second (or even third!) anchor - but's that is another discussion, and not what you asked...:D

[Lew Barrett]

SchoonerRat,

I didn't get that there was only one person aboard, my poor interpretation of the question, perhaps. I thought it meant the "sleeping skipper" and only his one person crew, but I can see how a more literal read changes things. I read it as "there is no other crew" (but me). Either way, one must know to stay alert and if one is solo, how to start and run the machinery.



How it works for sleeping watchmen (or women) is that in calm situations, the chain piles up more or less around the anchor and hangs straight down. Everybody is comfortably lulled to sleep in the loving arms of Neptune.

Of course, any tidal action and/or the working of a light breeze will swing the boat around, but mostly, you have this pile o' chain on the bottom. But put some force against her, and the whole shooting match straightens out to the length of the rode, with the catenary now more or less a straight line back to the vessel and the next thing that happens is she pops out of the bottom with a bang and a clang and hi ho silver away!

This wakes up the snoring captain with a start and signals the beginning of a miserable evening. A solo skipper sleeping through this event needs to set either some sort of electronic anchor alarm (GPS' have such things) or simply not go to bed on a night that is so doubtful in such an exposed condition. And being in such a place without knowledge of the equipment, knowledge of the techniques, knowledge of what to do is simply folly. How could somebody be alone in this situation, even hypothetically?

[John B]

If you're 'the captain', you'll know how to start the motor and get off a lee shore.Or get the sails up and get off a lee shore for that matter.

[paladin]

In those conditions I would run to the open sea...far enough out....toss the drogue overboard, take in the sails, and ride it out.....
Otherwise...I had three anchors forward and a bridle and anchor chain/line for two of them at the same time, and a couple of lighter anchors aft...and all line and chain was oversized for the boat....set two anchors on a bridle and a single rode back to the boat, three boat lengths of chain on each anchor, and a sentinal about a third of the way up on the line. I sat out the entire monsoon season in Fiji that way.

[Bob Cleek]

First off, sound "general quarters!"

[S.V. Airlie]

First off, sound "general quarters!"

Naw, man the torpedoes.. Full steam ahead..Blow everything in your way outta the way..

No seriously, I'll stick with my initial post.:rolleyes::D

Remember, I DO own a schooner!

[George Roberts]

It is important to realize what types of situations you do not want to get in to.

Those you avoid.

There is no reason to be in that hypothetical situation.

[novapamela]

Fantastic feedback all around. Thank you!

He is the only person on the boat, yes. I especially appreciate the different scenarios.

mmd, this is a "true (yet fictional) working schooner", ideally built in Nova Scotia and with some age on her.

Ian, what's a "boomkin"?

Thanks again!

Pamela

[Ian McColgin]

A boomkin is like a bowsprit out the back to accept a fixed back stay - not unusual on schooners that have a marconi main.

We appreciate that if one anchors in Oklahoma it should be possible to never be against a lee shore. In real life salt water harbors, the wind may come from any of the thirty two points and the recipricol is the lee shore.

[BarnacleGrim]

This is actually the kind of thinking that pilots are trained to do at all times. In any given situation you should evaluate all the possible scenarios that the situation can go wrong, and plan how to get out of that situation.

This is the kind of training that let the pilots save every passenger and crew in that plane that went down in the Hudson river. They were prepared, made a plan and executed it perfectly.

I've even witnessed a serious runway incursion myself when a Cessna ahead of me entered a runway with a big ATR on short final for landing. The pilots in the ATR would instantly recognise the situation, abort and go around, avoiding a disaster. They knew what could happen at any time, and were prepared when it finally happened.

[Woxbox]

If you are used to the boat and it's motion, then you will wake up in time - something won't "feel right" about the motion of the boat and you will be totally awake instantly,

That's a really good point. A boat can make all sorts of weird sounds all the time, and all sorts of odd movements at anchor. And you sleep right through it all undisturbed. But anything at all out of the ordinary, and BAM:eek:!!!! you are wide awake.

I was tied up to a beer keg mooring in a quiet cove one night and the shift in the tide brought the boat into the aluminum can. Probably a light tap, but man did it get me up in a hurry.

[Chip-skiff]

'Nother writer here.

Would it help to choose a certain schooner and collect photos and a lines drawing or a study plan? That way you'd have the layout at hand, and be able to picture your scenes with a consistent sense of detail.

For the book I'm writing, I spent quite a lot of time searching out material on the cargo liners of the 1930s, that carried meat and wool from NZ to Great Britain and manufactured goods, chemicals, etc. back. They carried passengers as well, although not in the style of the liners.

In any event, in maritime museums in San Francisco and Auckland, and on the web, I found quite a few firsthand accounts. Also photos and plans (the maritime journals published lines drawings of ships at their launch). It's a great help to know what my characters are seeing and the proper names of the various parts and decks.

I have traveled on a freighter from the US to NZ: the notebook I kept onboard is a further resource. In that line, you might want to book on one of the schooners that charters in Maine (or in warmer climes). No doubt you'd harvest more detail than you could use.

Good fortune with your book—

[SchoonerRat]

SchoonerRat,

I didn't get that there was only one person aboard, my poor interpretation of the question, perhaps. I thought it meant the "sleeping skipper" and only his one person crew, but I can see how a more literal read changes things. I read it as "there is no other crew" (but me). Either way, one must know to stay alert and if one is solo, how to start and run the machinery.



How it works for sleeping watchmen (or women) is that in calm situations, the chain piles up more or less around the anchor and hangs straight down. Everybody is comfortably lulled to sleep in the loving arms of Neptune.

Of course, any tidal action and/or the working of a light breeze will swing the boat around, but mostly, you have this pile o' chain on the bottom. But put some force against her, and the whole shooting match straightens out to the length of the rode, with the catenary now more or less a straight line back to the vessel and the next thing that happens is she pops out of the bottom with a bang and a clang and hi ho silver away!

This wakes up the snoring captain with a start and signals the beginning of a miserable evening. A solo skipper sleeping through this event needs to set either some sort of electronic anchor alarm (GPS' have such things) or simply not go to bed on a night that is so doubtful in such an exposed condition. And being in such a place without knowledge of the equipment, knowledge of the techniques, knowledge of what to do is simply folly. How could somebody be alone in this situation, even hypothetically?
Now that I reread the initial post, it is a little ambiguous as to the number of hands aboard. Having spent a great deal of time single handing and short handing with seasick crew that left me single handing I guess my brain just went that direction. Either way it's absolutely necessary to keep an anchor watch. If you're dragging your hook in a blow, it's unlikely that there will be enough of a change in the environment to wake even the lightest of sleepers---until the sound of timbers being shattered on the rocks. A GPS anchor alarm would be a good thing to have, but I tend not to trust my life to little black boxes that will be sounding off when the boat swings at anchor even if she isn't dragging. The little boy who cried wolf. There is no substitute for a pair of eyeballs setting up a number of ranges using any distinct landmarks that are available. Anchored off of a rocky lee shore is about as uncomfortable place to be as I can think of. If I'm skipper of that boat, I'm not going to be sleeping, no matter how much I trust any crew I have on watch.

[George Roberts]

ian ---

It has nothing to do with lee shores or Oklahoma.

The original post seems to have the tone of a poor movie (or an average TV program) where action is needed but there is no rational reason for the action. (reference the submarine story in Throwing Mama from the Train.)

Anyone who is single handing a 40' boat could avoid getting into such a situation.

[S.V. Airlie]

Fantastic feedback all around. Thank you!

He is the only person on the boat, yes. I especially appreciate the different scenarios.

mmd, this is a "true (yet fictional) working schooner", ideally built in Nova Scotia and with some age on her.

Ian, what's a "boomkin"?

Thanks again!

Pamela

Ya must be talking about me.. How nice..!!!!:D Tancook Island built 1929.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/tancook/031_31.jpg

[mmd]

Not all 42-ft schooners are/were "yachty":

Swordfishing schooner Adamantine:
http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/macaskill/images/120079.jpg

http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/macaskill/images/110120.jpg

Below is a small fishing schooner in Blue Rocks, NS. This photo is particularly interesting in this thread as in the bottom left corner it shows the interior arrangement of a small (probably around 28 - 32 ft) coastal fishing schooner. The box in the cockpit just forward of the tiller is the engine box that probably contains an Acadia Gas Engines make-'n'-break one-lunger.
http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/macaskill/images/121327.jpg


Finally, a small fishing schooner with some (!) accommodations. The wee house just forward of the farthest-aft man (probably the vessel's owner) is the engine box, the sliding hatch that the farthest-forward man is sitting on is the cuddy, which would have a couple of bunks, a Little Cod or Sardine wood stove, and a few boxes of provisions and clothing.
http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/schooners/images/200400506.jpg

[S.V. Airlie]

thanks Michael.. I don't have any pics of Airlie during her fishing days. These give me an idea of what she could have looked like.

[mmd]

Jamie, check ou the Nova Scotia Archives at http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/ The have hundreds of photos of schooners from the turn of the last century. Just type in "schooners" or "Tancook schooner" in the search thingy in the upper right of the screen. I recall several, if not lots, of pictures of swordfishing schooners, including some from Tancook. For all I know, they may well have a photo of Greenbow

[Lew Barrett]

There is no substitute for a pair of eyeballs setting up a number of ranges using any distinct landmarks that are available. Anchored off of a rocky lee shore is about as uncomfortable place to be as I can think of. If I'm skipper of that boat, I'm not going to be sleeping, no matter how much I trust any crew I have on watch.

I agree. I couldn't sleep through it anyway. Wouldn't be able to.

By the by, in Rita, we sleep forward. Guests get the aft quarters. My ear is eight feet from the anchor locker. You can hear the ground tackle working as she slips back against the rode in a blow when it is under strain, especially if it is dragging. If that would be enough to wake somebody up is a good question.

I don't like to count on my 6th sense, but it's amazing how many times I have woken in the middle of the night and poked my head out to find something amiss. It's like we have angels on our shoulders. But I don't like to rely on them. You have to rely on yourself

[S.V. Airlie]

Jamie, check ou the Nova Scotia Archives at http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/ The have hundreds of photos of schooners from the turn of the last century. Just type in "schooners" or "Tancook schooner" in the search thingy in the upper right of the screen. I recall several, if not lots, of pictures of swordfishing schooners, including some from Tancook. For all I know, they may well have a photo of Greenbow

Googled... Nada. Not surprised as the book on Tancooks didn't have really that many pics of Airlie/Greenbow 2 pre 1948 either..

[novapamela]

Thanks all!

I'm researching for a screenplay (fictional film), ideally set in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, where I "live" when I'm not travelling in the desert in a rig of another sort. Obviously, my timing leaves a lot to be desired. :rolleyes:

I haven't decided on my boat yet. I must see what services the story best, but I'm partial to the following so far: something like the Avenger (see her here: http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/atoz/tallmast2.html), a Grand Bank, or something marconi rigged. I still need to learn much more before I find my boat. Yes, I am eager to get my hands on a blueprint or detailed diagram.

My boat must be something manageable by a single able sailor, fall within the 38-45' range, be 30-40 years old or so, and hail from Nova Scotia. The sailor will sail solo to the Virgin Islands and back.

Maybe that answers some outstanding questions.

Thanks a milllion!

Pamela

[S.V. Airlie]

Thanks all!

I'm researching for a screenplay (fictional film), ideally set in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, where I "live" when I'm not travelling in the desert in a rig of another sort. Obviously, my timing leaves a lot to be desired. :rolleyes:

I haven't decided on my boat yet. I must see what services the story best, but I'm partial to the following so far: something like the Avenger (see her here: http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/atoz/tallmast2.html), a Grand Bank, or something marconi rigged. I still need to learn much more before I find my boat. Yes, I am eager to get my hands on a blueprint or detailed diagram.

My boat must be something manageable by a single able sailor, fall within the 38-45' range, be 30-40 years old or so, and hail from Nova Scotia. The sailor will sail solo to the Virgin Islands and back.

Maybe that answers some outstanding questions.

Thanks a milllion!

Pamela
still talking about me...
WOW!
Length is right
age is right
I sail single handed
Tancook schooner.. tech. the last one..1929.. Original name Greenbow 2 and she was commissioned for the Grand Banks..
She floats, gaff rig though but she is a schooner.. Oh the main is marconi..

What the heck do ya want?:eek::eek::eek::rolleyes:

[Uncle Duke]

her captain's asleep on the job, has no other crew, and she's dragging anchor toward a rock island in high wind. What comes first?
Ah - for a screenplay! But you want realism, yes?
Let's work around the starting points above and see where we end up....
First - captain is asleep means that he was comfortable when he anchored, which means that he did/does not anticipate any problems. Almost by definition that means that he did not anchor with a 'rock island' to leeward (wind in front of him, rock island behind) because nobody would be comfortable there at all - in fact, nobody would anchor there at all.
(Raises the questions: how experienced is your fictional skipper and how well equipped with up to date charts, etc ?)
More likely "anchor dragging" scenario is: skipper is tired and is relieved to find a nice little bay or some such, misses a weather forecast and thinks all is well. Mis-calculates the 'scope' of the anchor set,or is unaware of the state of the tide, or both. Wind veers, tide comes in, scope goes from 7:1 to 4:1, anchor pulls, boat is now dragging back toward shore - which you can make whatever is reasonable for wherever it is, but which can certainly have bad stuff to run up onto.
Does that make more sense as a scenario?

[S.V. Airlie]

I'm still having trouble with the captain falling asleep thing.. I have been asleep when I have begun to drag.. But.. damn, I knew it, sensed it, and I was on deck real quick..

[Uncle Duke]

I have been asleep when I have begun to drag.. But.. damn, I knew it, sensed it, and I was on deck real quick..
Exactly true. Any skipper who has spent any time on a specific boat (his own, for example) is completely, unconsciously, aware of what motions/sounds are normal. Any variance from those will render him/her awake immediately - usually before the very annoying sound of rock meeting wood.
He'd be awake and on deck before the boat had dragged 60 feet, probably. Remember (and Jamie/Airlie can validate..) that "dragging" is not a smooth continuous operation - it is a process of small 'jerks' and weird noises while the anchor catches and releases and the anchor chain/rode rubs back and forth in the chock.
Unless he had anchored in such a place that, having veered, he is now directly next to shallow water (which would be foolish, you should always leave room in all directions), then there will be some time to do something smart.

[Uncle Duke]

One more question: are there any other boats in this anchorage? Anything else to hit or to help? If so, are any of them dragging also?
You can invent all kinks of nightmare scenarios in that situation - dragging anchor lines fouling each other or getting wrapped around someone else's propeller, skippers screaming at each other in the dark, gnashing of teeth, lamentations of women - all the classic stuff!
Nowadays, of course, you add lawsuits into the mix, I guess.....:D

[novapamela]

Hi all,

The captain and the boat are new to one another. Captain is exhausted and still couple hundred miles from home. Exactly: in a nice little cove of sorts, misses a weather forecast, and "Mis-calculates the 'scope' of the anchor set,or is unaware of the state of the tide, or both".

Yes, Uncle Duke, you spelled out my scenario almost to a T.

Realism - definitely! All must be plausible.

No other boats in the cove, this time.

I like the "'jerks' and weird noises" details and the "nightmare scenarios". All the comments are a great help.

Thank you!

Pamela

[2MeterTroll]

well here you got to factor in when in time this would happen 1920 or after 70.
what equipment is on the bridge. has the boat a radar? depth sounder? plotter?
GPS?
all of these can be set to alarm if the conditions change. (I have in a bad storm off sand point set every one of them and the backup radar) For me it would be SOP to set at least two backups, (the common would be the radar and GPS units) on a new boat i would likely set three.

And i can whole heartedly agree that if you are dragging you will know it in your sleep; the feel of a boat changes.