Rig Question

[Paul G.]

I'm at the stage where I need to commit to a rig design. Currently the rig is marconi cutter which I am not going to repeat. The reason being that on a 22ft boat with a mast well forward its not very useful or efficient to have 2 headsails. I am going to have a marconi sloop rig but heres the choices i have to make.

The boat weighs about 4 tons, long keeled and has a relatively easily driven hull. When designed the mast above deck as 36 feet and the boom which does not extend past the transom is 16 feet long, 3/4 rigged sloop with a forestay to the stemhead and the jib on the bowsprit. The mast had fwd & aft lowers and a cap shroud to the masthead and an inner shroud that ran to the forestay fitting. Running backstays were also fitted.

So far so good.

The boat need a lot of rag in the light but 36 ft is a probably too much for cruising. Have I have is a 30 ft mast with a 27 ft hoist. However I want more sail area. The only way I can do this using the existing gear is by having a full batten main with a lot of roach, which is looking like a good option. but then I would need to dump the backstay and get running backs.

I have never used them and I asked this once before and people said they were a hassle and to avoid . Can I have a mast head jib without a permanent backstay? Do I need to set it up as a fractional rig if I choose running backs & if I do go downthat path is there a way to rig the boat so that the runners are only needed rarely?

Thanks guys

[johnw]

How much area do you have now? What's the foot?

One of the easiest ways to add area is with an overlapping jib. You don't have to change the mast, just put new sheet leads.

[John B]

You can do all that with swept spreaders Paul, but I don't know why you'd want to.All the disadvantages of a gaff rig, with none of the advantages.
I think you should do what John did to little Thelma when it was bermudan with a short ali masthead rig. He converted it to fractional by adding 6 ft onto the top , had it done by a spar guy ... cost was little .

[Ian McColgin]

Swept spreaders interfere with running.

A high roach fully battened sail is nice, and expensive, but it does not make up for shortening the rig. It also needs very firm boom control as you for a given point of sail sheet it further out but pull down harder for a relativly tighter leach. On many boats this is hard to work out and off the wind you'll really want a down guy rather than a vang.

I'd keep the taller stick but anyway:

Did you have a good rigger, sail maker or navel architect look over the proposed sail plan to be sure it balances rightly?

Are you keeping the bow sprit but getting rid of the forestay and if so what keeps the center of the mast from pumping?

We could go on with questions but cutting the the important chase, if you rig her such that the running backs keep the jib stay tight but are not utterly essential to keep the stick from falling over, like both fore and aft lowers, then handling the runners even in a gybe will be no problem.

There are some here who like the Hyfield lever type. I like a wire ending in a 3:1 tackle running through a good (can be opened under load) rope clutch and aimed at one of your jib winches.

Anyway, have fun &

G'luck

[johnw]

Now I'm confused. I thought he had a 30 foot mast, though the boat was designed for a 36 foot mast.

[Hwyl]

I don't really understand the question.

Is the mast step going to stay the same?

What is the problem with the full size mast and reefing in a blow. Your statement The boat need a lot of rag in the light but 36 ft is a probably too much for cruising. is self contradicting.

Rich Wilson describes one reef as "full main" and full main as "turbo rig". I think you've got to embrace that thinking.

The runners you have now are to support the staysail stay by the way.

[John B]

The original wooden mast was 36 ft above deck.
The retrofitted ali mast from the 70's ( probably) embraced the thinking of that day with a much shorter hoist and bigger genoa. 30 ft above deck.
Paul now wants more mainsail area and is asking whether he should get that from some big roach on the short mast ,and runners with no backstay.

I think a fractional rig looks best on a classic Woolacott and I'm saying put some on the top.ie it's stayed exactly the same way as it last was, but has 4 or 6 ft or so ( to be determined)extra mainsail hoist on the current 30 ft above deck.
He then gets his extra main area, keeps a standing backstay, runners become tuning devices for moderate conditions and are there for security in high wind. Boat looks right.
Its all good.

[johnw]

Yeah, that's what I thought the question was.

The idea with a masthead rig is to get more sail for a given mast height. The new mast was probably raked back a little to make up for the smaller main. You could go back tot he original rig (6 feet more hoist on the main and no more on the jib is really no a lot of area) or go with more overlap on the jib. Personally, I'm not big on cruising with a big overlapping genny, but you could cruise under working sail and use the big genny when you're feeling your oats.

A taller main would be easier to handle, but the change costs more.

[John B]

Yeah, and if Paul keeps a halyard at the ( new) masthead, he can add either a code zero or a mast head gennaker for the light.

[Paul G.]

Thaks for the input. I think a taller rig is the way to go.

Quote:
The boat need a lot of rag in the light but 36 ft is a probably too much for cruising.
is self contradicting.

Sorry for not being clear, this was designed to win races as well as cruise so they stuck a huge stick on it to get the area it needed to go well in light air. When its windy what I have is adequate. I dont really need such a big mast because of modern sail material/design & mostly its just me sailing, but I do need more than I have. The boat also doesnt look right either with a masthead rig, and looks are important.


(6 feet more hoist on the main and no more on the jib is really no a lot of area)


Actually its a fair bit because the foot is about 16 ft long so 6 foot of hoist is about 80 sq feet, remember its only 22 ft long. Also there will me no overlapping headsails and only 1 jib on a furler, with a staysail for windy days.

John, The trouble I have is that the mast section is well and truly obsolete, maybe it will be a 2nd hand ross 930 stick, they are plentful and cheap.

Ill keep you posted.

[JimD]

...with a mast well forward its not very useful or efficient to have 2 headsails. I am going to have a marconi sloop rig but heres the choices i have to make.

...

Pardon me for being picky but if the mast is well forward than it already is a sloop rig, two head sails not withstanding.

[John B]

Try Bruce Elliot Paul. Iorangi's rig was a damaged Elliot 1050 mast with length added( for eg) and it came from there. Steve Ashley has his finger on the pulse too.. might be worth a call.