Business opportunity?

[Vindo Joe]

OK people I know this is going to sound like...but I have a serious question that I would like your collective oppinions on. Here goes.

I've just ended my corporate job. While it wasn't my idea, it was definitly for the better so I'm not looking for sympathy. Now that I have some unaticipated time on my hands I'm looking for a way to make a good living without working for a large company.

My question is; Can a person make money building classic styled mahogany speed boats? While I've never built one, I done all sorts of woodworking and mechanical jobs around boats and I honestly think I have the skills and most of the tools to do the job. I love the look and feel of these boats and love the the work that goes into building them. Any thoughts on designs and building methods that would most popular?

I realize this is a very open ended question but I would like to know if a one or two man shop building boats of this nature can make it. And I don't know of a better place to start my research than here.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[ken mcclure]

Depends on your boatbuilding experience and knowledge, and on your ability to market and sell.

You can make money with just about any business as long as you can find your market and sell your product at a price that provides an appropriate margin.

There's a saying to the effect that to wind up with a million dollars from a boatbuilding business, you start with two million dollars....

[Scott Rosen]

Joe,

If you lost your job because of the poor economy, then you should consider that others are feeling the effects of the economy as well. The first things that people cut back on are luxury items like boats. Your ability to start a new business building boats will depend to a huge extent on the health of the economy and people's ability to spend $$ on a big wooden toy.

Good luck.

[Gary Bergman]

But then again, if the economy is so poor that it won't give you a decent living, use those tools and knowledge to build a larger vessel, possibly sail, and leave the rat race behind.

[Scott Rosen]

I'm not saying he shouldn't do it. I'm just saying be realistic about your income expectations. If more modest your needs, the better off you will be.

[Wild Dingo]

Takin into account what the other fellas have said... I guess it would also depend on what sort of business you're after... income wise... seems having spoken to Mac Macarthy a quite a few times now hes about as happy as a pig in a poke as Ive heard it called... just puttering around building a few canoes here and there teaching a few people how to and taking a few canoe tours around his area a book or two and well... seems a pretty happy fella old Mac... depends on what your after I guess.

Also I would think it would have as much to do with what sort of boat is popular around your area... here in my area many people are interested in cat powerboats but theyre way way over priced for what they are {40,000 and up fast! these of course are Ali and glass ones no-one around here purpose builds for intentional sale... wooden boats!}... so competition with a wooden cat powerboat such as the WILDCAT E-X-T SPORT from Hankinsons (http://www.boatdesigns.com/cgi-bin/store/web_store.cgi?page=bycategory.html&&cart_id=2219168_3899) ...would maybe could possibly offer another market that perhaps maybe could possibly make a fella a quid or two... or then again a sailboat like say the Amigo from Glen L (http://www.glenl.com) would possibly could maybe get a new market going... there being no small wooden sailboat manufacturer or seller around here... Although interestingly around here it seems a pretty constant scream that tears out of the market place for trailerable houseboats almost weekly the question is asked: "where can I get a trailerable houseboat about 25ft x 8ft?"... just none available locally but theyre wanted by a section of the community... so then one has to figure out how much its gonna cost to build the things and are their potential market capable of paying as much as you need to be asking to cover costs make a living etc etc etc... I know theres been a few fellow forumites whove had similar thoughts at times... but really its gonna depend on quite a few variables... geographics {no good building and trying to sell sailboats to someone who lives in an area that has a few creeks and lagoons but no real decent constant wind} customer demographics {whats the customer base like for the area your gonna service old young financially secure insecure retired single that type thing} economics {theirs and yours}... market needs {percieved or otherwise}... not to mention availablity of supplies and services for your proposed business...

I dont know not having done it but having seen a few people quickly go under from not doing all their homework when initially gearing "the business" up and being too focused on just one type of service provision {eg just sail boats} and not diversifying enough to meet as many customer needs as they can possible service well and efficiently {sail boats plus say dorys small canoes whatever}... if youve done this then man the only thing to be said is... choose your designs and go for it!...

Of course then youve also gotta get the designers permission to build more than one and as a business which I have little doubt will cost you a percentage of every craft to their design you build... or design your own... of course by this stage you would have worked out your sources for sails outboards inboards epoxy fibreglass gloves tool replacement parts trailers anchors chain rope etc etc etc havent you?...

Then again there are some interesting designs in the public domain from the days of yore available... that with a bit of conversion could maybe possibly be built cheeply and be an effective market entry with no designer royalties... maybe possibly could be?... try Science and Mechanics free boat plans (http://www.svensons.com/boats/) and there are others

Heck mate do what you believe you can!... but for your own sake go through the business plan process first!! Dont get caught simply because you didnt do your homework first!...

Final word?... Good Luck! :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[ 09-23-2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[brad9798]

It's all about marketing and positioning within your market ...

Take boats- are not most boats overpriced? Sure they are.

Take the new 25' Chris Craft launch ... designed to 'capture' the look and feel of a by-gone era ... is a 25' runabout really worth $95,000? Hell no. By my estimation, there's got to be a good $50-60,000 in profit!

People don't buy boats, they buy symbols ... a lifestyle ... an image.

In a lot businesses, the more expensive, the higher the perceived value. Perceived being the key to anything.

Marketing 101-

Ask the common person what the best wooden boat is ... and most will tell you Chris Craft. Chris Craft's were/are not necessarily the best. But, the name brand and their marketing in years past have given them that distinction.

Study your potential market, your costs, etc.

The trick is to get some 'pre' orders and some $$ up front.

Many folks make a good living building boats ... will you? Who knows.

Like my signature says: Do what you love ... the money will follow.

Brad

[Darren McClelland]

Joe

I was working heavy construction for ten years when the end was in site (lay offs) I went back to school and followed a life long dream of becoming a woodworking teacher. I have been teaching for seven years, and love every day, follow your dreams the money will follow as will the rewards, such as personal satisfaction.

Good Luck
Darren

P.S. do your homework

[Dale R. Hamilton]

I'm with you Joe. I'll be retiring from a Govt career in 2 years. I intend to go into the boatbuilding business full time, and I intend to make money. Not get rich- but st least make a living. Here's what I've done- I have a fully equipped shop, I've had enough experience to be able to build boats, I have a plan (for mahogany strip plank runabouts -that look like the mid-50's chris speedboats, but are laid up in epoxy. And I have a nitch market picked out. Its women. Women who are successful enough to blow 25 grand on a toy- that reminds them of their father's boat- or grandfather for that matter, But there will not be the maintenance nightmare the old ones were. I'm thinking single cockpit, 15' maximum,
hydraulic steer, anything that makes it easy to handle. To start- after the prototype of course, I think I can make 4 per year- clearing 10,000 each. If I have help, we can bump up the output.

I've put this question out to the forum before- asking if there was anybody out there who was actually doing that in retirement- and I didn't get any affirmative answers. So, I don't know- may all be a pipedream- but lets stay in touch.

[Vindo Joe]

Thanks everyone for your responses, I really appreciate your input.

Dale, you bring up a very interesting approach. Have you though of how you would target a female market? How will you advertise, if at all? What price range do you think you will end up in for a 15' runabout?

I'm curious as to what design/construction features you would employ to target a female market, if any.

There is a fair amount of interest in wooden boats in Connecticut. I'm in the process of doing the market research now and any further input from the forum is much appreciated.

What about construction and design recomendations. Jet Drive, inboard, outboard? Fiberglass sheeting? Cold Molding? Genuine leather seating? Keep it comming! My thoughts are to supply an entire package including custom trailer and cover.

[imported_Conrad]

Joe- My auto business is similar to what you have planned in that it essentially sells toys to boys, but boys in large bodies with lots of money. I've thought about a similar business in the past, and based on my experiences feel that they way to success is to cater to the top end of the market. There are huge amounts of money in this country, and people willing to spend it whether the economy is good or not. In fact, I've found that when the economy dips these guys may spend more on toys to help them forget about their other problems. If you're providing a complete, no hassel, no frustration experience and can work toward being an honest friend, you may find yourself with more business than you can handle. Do your very best work, never let anyone feel less than totally pampered and happy, and you'll find success. We consistently have more work than we can handle.

The other side of the coin is this. If you try to cut corners, don't have a good product, or try to sell to a price, you'll be left dealing with people who can't really afford what you're selling, but are smart enough to understand what they didn't get- They'll take the frustration out on you and your profit margins. We tell people that we can do 85% of the job for 50% of the money, but the last 15% of they way to perfection will cost as much as the first 85%!! The best customers understand and accept, because they can afford to- the middle guys just make everyone misserable trying to get 95% for 50% or less. It's a myth, IMHO, that there is a huge potential market for a "competitively" priced glass boat substitute, if only it could be built. But there is always an adequate market for "art" and service at the high end- go for that!

[imported_Dutch]

Ive got to agree with some of the other posts. Dont under price your work- there is definately a perceived idea of price and quality going hand in hand. But on the other hand make sure you are a perfectionist enough to do a perfect job-every time-even if you have to eat the cost-eventually your product is going to be looked at by someone who knows what they are about and your reputation will be made or broke.I have also noted through the years that the more money someone is spending the more they expect in way of you kissing a bit of ---. If you arent up to doing that, as well as varinishing the mahogany, you arent going to be very successful. You arent gong to get rich I dont think, but youll have the satisfaction of creating. Good Luck.

[John Gearing]

Here's my advice, for what it's worth. If you want to build mahog speedboats go to the big lakes nearby where they tend to be found: I'm thinking Winapasaukee in NH and of course Lake George in upstate NY. This might give you an idea of what people want or are willing to buy. If you can, see if you can stop in at the HackerCraft shop in Silver Bay (West side of Lake George) and check out their operation. They build classic 2 and 3 cockpit speedboats and have been in business for some time now, so I'm assuming they have got their ducks lined up in a row. Check out the website for Van Damm and you'll see some amazing boats. I have to wonder how big the market would be for a small mahog speedboat. I think most of the Hackers are over 22' or so. Bear in mind that if you are going to build for the carriage trade, they are likely going to expect perfection. And if that means 20 coats of varnish....just make sure you set your price and price your labor accordingly. Also think about whether you are going to build one-offs or standard models (or "customizable" standard models). One-offs would probably only be feasible for the very high end of the market because the owner is going to have to pay the entire tooling cost, whereas in the case of standard models, molds, jigs, and fixtures can be used over and over again, thus spreading their cost over the entire production run. I suspect there might be more profit in repairing existing boats than there is in building anew, but have no data to back that up. Have you been up to Boyd's in Canton? They do restorations also sell project boats. They've in the biz for about 20 years, so something must be working right for them. Heck, maybe the thing to do, since you live in Simsbury, is to try to get a job at Boyd's for awhile and see what you learn and how much you like it. Just a thought.

[pcford]

Vindo Joe wrote:
My question is; Can a person make money building classic styled mahogany speed boats?The answer to that question is yes. But the question you want answered is can you make money building classic styled speedboats.

I restored mahogany speedboats for 25 years and do have a bit of hard-won knowledge in this field. A lot of your advice is well-intentioned, I am sure, but you don't have to reinvent the wheel. I never tried to do repro speedboats but some do make money doing this. I am thinking of Stan-craft in Idaho and I believe Kenny Basset does a few of them in his business.
However, the important note to remember is that many more have failed. There was a shop in the 1000 Islands region that was doing Garwood reproductions. There was a shop locally here in Seattle that tried. There was a guy down in Eatonville who was going to do reproductions of Fairliner Torpedos. By the way, all of these people were at least compentent business people. Some very compentent. OOh, and I was in charge (as an employee) of planking for a prototype for a line of classically styled boats here in Seattle.

A few notes in random order:

Materials are frightfully expensive. Everything has to be first class. There is also the dubious karma of aiding the denuding of tropical rain forests. Most planking stock, at least 'round here comes from Africa. Unless you are lucky enough to own a shop already, you need to pay for space. In Seattle, that's about a $1 a foot. Plus insurance, plus triple net. Forget about cheap and quaint waterfront places, at least here in Seattle you are about 30 years too late.

It's great work-don't get me wrong-but it progresses pretty slowly. There is a huge percentage that goes to labor. That guy that said most is "profit" did not know what he was talking about. It possible to jig up and make things go faster.

But here's the main point: You have to sell them. This reguires some kind of plan for advertising and distribution. The hard part is not making them, it is selling them. Shops that have been in business and have a reputation for good work, like Stan-craft for example can make a go of it. No doubt they have the boat pretty much jigged up.

The fact is that a new classic speedboat is a really bad investment. Ok,I know what you are thinking, you could say that any boat is a bad investment. However, new classic speedboats do not hold value. A restored hull is, in my humble opinion, a much better place to put your money.

A new builder would not have a reputation nor jigs and templates to aid sales and efficiency. In other words, I hope your former employer gave you a generous severance package.

It might seem a good idea to do what you want to do. However, don't underestimate the value of health insurance, your own home, and a decent car. These have their attractions as well. Also, one of the main reasons I got out of the boat restoration business is the dubious health effects of the chemicals one uses.

After all that, there is nothing so pleasant (well, almost nothing) as making a boat out of a pile of boards. Perhaps unique among man-made objects, boat have a personality. You refer to a boat as "she."

It's just a tough way to make a living. Building new boats is tougher still than restoration.

To return you my original comment. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. You need to track down guys that are doing or have attempted to build classic speedboats.

It's possible, but it ain't easy.

And the best of luck to you!!

Pat Ford

[ 09-26-2002, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: pcford ]

[Randy Sweet]

10 years ago I Incorporated as an "s" corporation for consulting. What I learned and hence my advice to you is to put together a realistic plan (including realistic costs, marketing, insurance, maintainence and warrantee work) and work the plan. Be honest in the plan ... it's your plan !

Good luck.

[ken mcclure]

How would you target a female market? Hmmm. A small laser in the scope works well here.

Heh-heh.

Before you spend any money, buy any plans, rent any shop space and the rest you need to find out - NOT GUESS - who your market is. As mentioned above, go to the lakes or wherever those boats lie and see who's buying them. Talk to them and ask why they bought them. Ask why they bought the one they bought. Ask what they'd want that was different.

In short, you need to find out who the market is, where it is, how much it will spend, what it will buy and how to get your message to it.

This is as true for mahogany speedboats as it is for tennis shoes.

[Vindo Joe]

The responses from all of you have been fantastic. Most interesting was the restoration versus new construction. What I've suspected on those that do this kind of business is that it's easy to overlook the hours spent seeking out restorable craft. Most of what I've seen out there is boats which have almost no usable wood left and only partial hardware. Could it be that those buying restored boats don't care or realize that what they've rally bought is a new boat built from an old boat used as a pattern?

I have to admit there is some unexplainable value to a restored boat of historical significance. But as was pointed out in an earlier post it's what the market thinks that counts.

The fact is that in my area there are more wooden sailboats than speedboats. Possibly I need to be looking into that instead.

This is great forum the quantity and quality of feedback has exceeded what I could get in several days of footwork on the waterfront.

Thanks everyone, keep it coming if you have more input!

[Mike Field]

Well, more input Joe, but more of the same.

I hope this doesn't infringe the self-advertisement ban that WoodenBoat rightly insists on here, but we make wooden fittings of all sorts for traditional boats -- most are deck fittings, but we make some other bits and pieces as well. By far our biggest-selling item, though, is our boathooks, and I'm absolutely convinced it's because we spend a lot of time and effort making them look special. You can do only so much to a cleat or a belaying-pin to make it look great (amd we do,) but a boathook can be decorated from Melbourne to Massachusetts and back, and it's the individuality and attractiveness that's what our clients like and pay us good money for. (One customer told me he'd been waiting for a long time to get "the world's best boathooks," and promptly ordered two, along with two pennant staffs into the bargain,,,,)

After all, what's a boathook? Just a broomstick with a hook on the end. (That's what JohnB's is anyhow,,,,) You can buy a bit of aluminium tubing with a moulded plastic head that will do the job for only a few dollars. But our customers will spend twenty times as much as that for one of our wooden ones. We put a lot of time and effort into making them just as good and well as we can, and our clients are happy to pay us for doing that.

As was said above, the customers are there if you can find them. Our biggest customers are actually in your country, not here in Oz, so that should make you feel happy. We found them originally through the internet, although now we're getting new business in the US by word of mouth. You'll definitely need a website, and if you're selling Class, then the website should reflect that (probably more than ours does.) I wouldn't spend a lot of time or money in printed advertising. Be selective about where you run print ads, but where you do run them, don't run just one, run them regularly, so that folks get used to seeing them and remember where they did see them.

Robert Townsend once asked, if you're not in business for fun or money then what are you there for? He implied a dichotomy between the two, but it's quite possible to be in business and get both fun and money from it. However, I disagree with the implication expressed above that as long as you're doing what you like, the money will just somehow arrive automatically. It won't. But it can be made to arrive, as long as you get your marketing right.

I'm absolutely convinced that the secret is in the marketing, not in the product. The world doesn't beat a path to the door of the guy who invents the world's best mouse-trap. It beats the path to the door of the guy who markets his mouse-trap best -- just as long as his mouse-trap can catch mice.

.

[WWheeler]

I've been doing some marketing research on this subject too, and I think that the advice to go "high-end" is sound. However, the "toys for the boys" approach doesn't necessarily mean mahogany runabouts, it's about things that you craved when you were a kid, that you can buy today. This could be also be classic car, a horse (usually women) etc. In my case, I didn't crave a mahogany runabout, but a nice sailboat. (this is from reading Swallows and Amazons as a kid).

Also, you have to suit the local market, since boats are not the most portable sort of product. Sailboats or trawler type yachts may be more appropriate for the West Coast. Have you looked at Sam Devlin's designs? The other thing that's appropriate is ocean kayaks, which can be built quite nicely is cedar strip/mahogany and epoxy. Or Calkin's Bartenders, heavy built fishing boats for surf.

By contrast, in my area, there's lots of runabouts and skiffs, for the urban types who come up to cottages and weekend fishing trips. There's also sailboats on the big lakes (Lake Ontario/Lake Ontario), and yes there's some mahogany runabouts for the high-end Muskoka crowd. (see www.butsonsboats.com). (http://www.butsonsboats.com).) There's lots of canoes, but kayaks are becoming more common with the yuppies.

The sailboat market, I think, is going through somewhat of a revival. Apparently, the whole market (at least in Canada) went through a collapse in the late 80's, where, due to overproduction and a recession, several large manufacturers went broke. There's been a huge inventory of used sailboats (fibreglass yes, but still boats) on the market, so prices were really cheap. These boats are starting to get kind of long in the tooth, 20-30 years old, and the fibreglass isn't nearly so attractive anymore, what with the core rot problems in decks, stress cracks, and fading due to UV. Boats can be built in stitch and glue, strip planked, or cold-moulded, and provide a product that is just a resilient, low maintenance and attractive (if not moreso!) as a factory-built product. Again, Devlin seems to be doing a good job in this respect. (Note his prices -- they're not cheap!)

The comments about the setup costs of jigs, moulds etc. are true, but a small boat shop is going to be a custom business, catering to the needs of a relatively small customer base. Some do this by building a basic hull, and customizing to the needs of a particular customer. (Colour, seating, power configuration etc.) This is your real advantage over a production line! Others I've seen have built a repertoire of designs that they can offer, or supplement with restoration work.

Here's some other links: www.woodwindyachts.com, (http://www.woodwindyachts.com,) www.portcarlingboats.com. (http://www.portcarlingboats.com.)

A cautionary tale -- I spent several happy hours this weekend picking through the junk in someone's boat yard. He's retiring, and was a kind of Sanford and Son type. I asked about a certain boat, and he said, oh that's a classic, I'm going to restore that. Well, it looks like he hadn't ever restored anything in 30 years. My point is, you'll have to focus on one part of the business, and do it well.