Sheet winches relocation and advice,ideas needed

[Salty Sailor]

I am in the process of changing my winch sheet system.
Currently I have 2 large self tayloring winches on my cabin top.
To windward the boom gets in the way of the handles.

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs028.snc1/2654_71867789837_815234837_2244581_3534498_n.jpg

As I am replacing the cabin top I have removed the winches.
I will be relocating the winches alongside the cockpit coaming.
What I have found is a nice set of four winches which have a smaller base to suit the new spot.

These replacement winches are not self tayloring so, can you help me by providing your methods of cleating off your sheets. Also any any pittfalls or advice with the location or mounting of the winches?

[Yeadon]

The primary thing I see ... your main sheet's angle from the clew to the block is a bit severe. It really pulls the leech taught. Look at the wrinkles along the luff and the foot of the sail. That doesn't look efficient.

Any more photos? Maybe another angle?

[Todd Bradshaw]

On a related note, before you start messing with the sheet leads and winches, you really need to get somebody aboard to help figure out what's wrong with your sails and what sort of adjustments and/or recutting they need to set properly. I've seen a lot of badly set sails, but those are both really in need of some help.

Start by moving the jib car aft and releasing the jib leech line (if it has one) to see if you can get rid of that badly hooked jib leech. If it then develops a lot of leech flutter, the repair for that is a fairly simple and inexpensive one.

On the mainsail, your sail is not meant to use a boom that's drooping so badly at its aft end. The leech is tight and it looks like you probably have at least a foot of slack in the luff. If you have a sliding gooseneck, it would need to move downward a whole bunch to fix this. If the gooseneck is fixed in position, the luff is either too long, the leech is too long or the sail isn't hoisted properly up to it's proper height. It would be very unusual for a Dacron sail's luff or leech to stretch that far out of it's designed shape from use. Were these sails actually made for this boat? I think you can probably move the winches if desired, but it's not going to fix some of the major problems that you have going on.

[Salty Sailor]

Sorry to have used that photo it was the only one I had to show the winch position. As far as the sails go this was her first sail / test run before I bought the boat. We couldn't get the main all the way up the mast and the genoa cars were stuck so please excuse the poor choice of photo.
All of those problems were resolved and she now is half way through restoration.

I grew up in dinghys, cats, and my father yacht which had ST winches so I have no experience with having to cleat off a winch.

To clarify this is a racing yacht so I would like the most effective way to mange my sheets. I dont like to drill my holes twice if I can avoid it.

I can work most of the concept but for cleating I would like to see if there is a cleat system that stands out from the rest or a solid tried and true method you can swear by.

[bucheron]

Is this yacht any particular class? If it is there may be restrictions on where you are allowed to place some fittings to remain class-legal. If that matters to you.

Do you usually sail with crew? This may influence your choice.

I would also try taking the sheet direct from the travelling block to the winch behind the cockpit, ( the one on the port side in the photo)

[Hwyl]

I'd keep the self tailers and move them outboard and aft to a plinth(say outboard of the coamings and 50 cm aft). I would eliminate the turning block and lead them direct from the car.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Many yachts site their winches on the cabin tops. Situated there the winches are quite well situated for winching the genoa, even more so if you cross winched. That is feed the sheet to the upper opposite side winch. This allows the crew on the windward rail to winch and assist tailing when on the weather rail.
With the winches on those narrow side decks there is not much room to site the winch, and your crew are very low down and struggling for room.

Brian

[Salty Sailor]

Thanks for the good advice so far..

Is this yacht any particular class? If it is there may be restrictions on where you are allowed to place some fittings to remain class-legal. If that matters to you.

Do you usually sail with crew? This may influence your choice.

I would also try taking the sheet direct from the travelling block to the winch behind the cockpit, ( the one on the port side in the photo) .

She is a 30sq. There is no restrictions that I am aware of and there is no serious class racing in Sydney Harbour.

95% of the time with crew... Twilight racing mainly.

The sheet winch behind the cockpit has been removed and I would prefer access from the main cockpit.



I would eliminate the turning block and lead them direct from the car.


Great idea....I currently have all deck fittiings off the boat so the turning block might go further back for the spinnaker sheets only.

I'd keep the self tailers and move them outboard and aft to a plinth(say outboard of the coamings and 50 cm aft).

They are too wide at the base and I would like a classic looking ST winch, but its hard to find 2nd hand ST winches.New ones are a bit much for my pocket.


Many yachts site their winches on the cabin tops. Situated there the winches are quite well situated for winching the genoa, even more so if you cross winched. That is feed the sheet to the upper opposite side winch. This allows the crew on the windward rail to winch and assist tailing when on the weather rail.
With the winches on those narrow side decks there is not much room to site the winch, and your crew are very low down and struggling for room.

The boom is low on this rig so the handle cant make a full turn.
With 2 speed winches this is hard work. The cockpit in this boat has removable seats so the crew can stand over a winch on the coaming with room to tail the rope.

[rbgarr]

Sometimes winches can be rigged for through-and-under-the-deck handles. My boat has that and it's great. Perhaps not so good or possible for yours.

[frank pedersen]

I agree with Hwyl. My wife objected when I said I was going to have ST winches, maybe something about a "classic" look. Now, she wouldn't sail without them. Lewmar winches are a little less pricy than Harken and I think well worth the cost, especially with a genoa as large as on a 30.

[Salty Sailor]

Thanks for advice but I can swap out my 2 ST winches for a set of 4 rechromed slightly smaller 2 speed winches which will fit nicely beside the coaming. I can also use smaller rope for my sheets. Cleating off a winch can't be that tough..To save a few thou on this rebuild I will count the dollars every time I cleat her off.
That money can go towards more important jobs in this rebuild.

So is there anybody with some thoughts on the best method of cleating?

[Ron Williamson]

No method really,aside from the obvious,but IIRC,the cleat should be at an angle to the load(like 15 degrees?).
My cleats are currently bolted to the outside of the coaming,forward of the winches.
What are you doing with the STs?
R

[rbgarr]

Jam cleats work for me.... but I always keep my hand on the sheet.
Example: http://tinyurl.com/d7fgrs

[py]

Have a look at any number of boats, and just try a bit of play acting. Put the new winch roughly where it will go on the side deck, stand roughly how you'd stand to sheet in, pretend you are heeled over at 60 degrees, in a bit of a slop and with 3 people all shouting contradictory instructions, and work out where your tailing hand is most conveniently going to drop to a cleat so you can do a quick figure 8 and get the hell up onto the windward side of the boat! The top or outside of the cockpit coaming, about a foot or so from the winch, seems to be a popular choice. Self tailing winches are a lovely thing-have you tried using a standard winch? It really becomes a 2 person job-one to wind the handle and one to tail. I'd work hard at finding a solution that keeps the self tailers since you already have them. Just crossing the sheets so you can trim using the upwind winch has a lot to be said for it. Might even have been what was originally intended if the leeward one fouls the boom.

[JimConlin]

The winch bases on Concordia yawls are outboard of the coamings and are extra-long to provide a base for the sheet cleats.
http://www.concordiaboats.com/images/yawls/048/large_048_003_1200x900.jpg

Margo- Have you got a better pic than this?

[hm0316]

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv249/hm0316/cottonblossomii.jpg?t=1237220647


This picture of Cotton Blossom II shows a good winch layout for a boat somewhat similar to yours. The cabin top is not a good place for winches in my judgement because the lead angle is frequently too great and it puts excessive strain on the corner joints of the cabin top. This can lead to leaking and other bad things. Cotton Blossom is set up so its main sheet can be double ended and sheeted from aft of the helmsmans position. The running backstays are sheeted forward to secondaries. All the winches are the same size (although it is hard to tell from this angle) which gives lots of flexibility in the handling of the spinnaker gear. These are bronze simi-custom Harkens and are not self tailing. I prefer self tailing (at least in the US where they are not penalized under the racing rules) but non-ST is fine if you have the crew. As far as cleating is concerned, there are some very nice classic bronze jam cleats for really small winches. For your boat, you will probably need something more substantial.

Good luck, hm0316

[paladin]

Look for used Barbarossa winches......I bought mine before Harken acquired the company and put their name on them and quadrupled the price. I can't find the site at the moment but there was a doctor selling second hand Barbarossas as a "second business" a while back...Fantastic for single handing.

[Canoeyawl]

There are some pretty specific "rules" for mounting winches.
Lead angle, height above lead, and etc.
Because the winches are usually a clockwise lead they may not be symmetrical mounting port and starboard.
Some of the same rules apply for cleating if you want to slip the line from the cleat without riding turns.

[Salty Sailor]

All great advice.

Cotton Blossom. The best bit of cotton the owner ever picked..:)
Magic...

I use a block system for my running backs so I will have 2 winches each side of the cockpit coaming and dispense with the 3rd set even though a spinnaker sheet man sitting in the back hatch area is a great trimming spot. For solo work I'll rund the sheets of the back ones closer to the tiller.

I bought a set of 4 Meissener winches which after they are rechromed wll have cost me less than what I sold my 2 ST winches for.

With an extra role on board it will keep the crew busy which makes it more a little more fun and exciting for them and me I'd imagine..

The coaming I have is higher the blossom's so a solid wood mounting block will be made to order with very long mounting bolts.

I'll be back with photos when time permits..

[John B]

Virtually the entire volume of water which ended up coming into our cockpit when pressed on the wind was due to the solid winch blocks. Fabricated steel or better , cast bronze winch bases, allows the water to pass without diverting inside.
I largely beat the problem by making an 'end plate' type seat on top of the coamings and that was fine as a work around.

[Salty Sailor]

Ahh John you just answered another question as to why there is so many methods that differ from the basic block.

What about this idea?
I have seen the tunnel style that fits two winches.
The water can flow under the winch base. In the tunnel is an arch brace to support the tunnel frame work and still allow water to pass.
I wish I had a photo. It would be made of 50mm thick Maple or teak.

Here is a drawing

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs028.snc1/2654_72707054837_815234837_2262225_4906956_n.jpg

[John B]

Sounds good.. you just need to take extra care that the load is carried properly through the deck.. I've seen some bronze murray winch bases , beautiful webbed out things , which had some fairly serious point loading at the two outboard points of the base... that can cause a leak and some wear.

This is my solution to the problem of water diverted inside... not what you're looking for but to illustrate my point.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/waione/243_4314_1.jpg

The cockpit coamings used to be the usual bronze capped affairs.

[donald branscom]

I am in the process of changing my winch sheet system.
Currently I have 2 large self tayloring winches on my cabin top.
To windward the boom gets in the way of the handles.

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs028.snc1/2654_71867789837_815234837_2244581_3534498_n.jpg

As I am replacing the cabin top I have removed the winches.
I will be relocating the winches alongside the cockpit coaming.
What I have found is a nice set of four winches which have a smaller base to suit the new spot.

These replacement winches are not self tayloring so, can you help me by providing your methods of cleating off your sheets. Also any any pittfalls or advice with the location or mounting of the winches?

It is not self "tayloring" it is self tailing as in the tail end of the sheet.


The best way to cleat off a mainsheet is a cleat.
If you have the money get a sheet stopper and tie a knot in the end of the line.
You have to have the sheets set up for that system.

Look in the Harken catalogue and you will see different set ups.

You are the catpt so you should know the best position for the winches so that they do not get in the way or posr a danger to the crew if one lets go. Make sure you thru bolt the winches.

[hm0316]

Salty, I note you have Meissners. They are very handsome but bear in mind that (except for the smallest models) they use aluminum for some of the internal parts. Take them apart regularly to check for corrosion. Also, on the pedestal construction issue, you can get bronze pedestals that have open bases; they, of course, can be expensive. I would be hesitant about fabricating a wooden base of the sort your describe due to the forces that will be put on the pedestal. hm0316

[Salty Sailor]

Thanks for the heads up on the winch parts.
I will be stripping them down and having chrome work done. I am also manufacturing 2 x 3mtr long alu genoa car tracks which will need to be anodised so I'll get advice about the internal winch parts while I am there as they deal with winches on a regular basis.
The timber base tunnel with 2 braces inside will be alot stronger than my current cabin top arrangement. 50mm thick timber used througout. I saw the design on lager rigged boat than mine with no signs of varnish craking on the joins so the design should work nicely.

[hm0316]

Salty, that sounds good. The Meissners are nice. Let us know if your chrome guy has any ideas about the internal aluminum parts. They are isolated by plastic sleeves and Meissner does not see it as a problem but the problem comes up if you get an electrolye (i.e. salt water) in contact with both the aluminum and the bronze. It can probably be dealt with by close attention and frequent maintainance.

Good luck, hm0316

[Salty Sailor]

Found this picture a variation of John B photo with the lip on the coaming. I am going for this design.

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs028.snc1/2654_73316649837_815234837_2271055_998130_n.jpg

[Hwyl]

A great solution

[bucheron]

It is not "catpt" .

it's capt . . . . . it is not "posr " it is pose .

Aren't they?

cheers buchie

[Salty Sailor]

Some progress on the new winch supports.
The cleats are rounded at one end tappered to a wedge at the other.
Hopefully if thes work it will be quick and simple cleating without ugly clam cleats.

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs015.snc1/4499_104667199837_815234837_2636343_6280443_n.jpg


http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs015.snc1/4499_104667209837_815234837_2636344_4134114_n.jpg

This shot taken before the cleats were added, during the testing phase to try out the new position which went well. It was much easier than the old setup.

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs029.snc1/4290_98300314837_815234837_2533242_2676628_n.jpg