House wires for Prairie Islander

[NormMessinger]

One of these days I'll start putting cabin lights and nav lights in our boat. Almost all will be surface wired, up the bulkhead across the cabin top to the fixture, that sort of thing. I don't like the thought of stapling Romax to the walls. Well, okay maybe not Romax, its a 12 volt system but, is there a decrative wire that might not look too bad?

[Bob Cleek]

Hey Norm! Check out Anchor Wire Company. They should be on line. They've got catalogs. They make MARINE grade wire. (Yup, such an animal exists.) What you want first off is tinned stranded wire. Not solid, which is prone to breaking if flexed repeatedly. You want tinned strands. The untinned, pure copper stuff turns to green powder in the salt air. Anchor has various sizes of marine grade wire in various numbers of wires (two, three, four wire... however many) which is encased in a nice neutral colored plastic insulation. Easy to work with and bend around corners. You can use copper strap with a hole punched in either end and screws to fasten it neatly where it needs to be. Once it is painted over, you'll hardly notice it.

[Kev Smyth]

Lamp cord would be fine, cheap, and comes in a variety of colors. Or save up for a while, then call West Marine. You can have any color you want as long as it's grey. ;)

[Buddy]

DO USE a tinned "boat store" wire. Ancor is one name brand available. Not a household or automotive DC wire. It will last longer in the damp or salt. There are special heat shrink waterproof marine crimp on/ heat gun types, and heat shrink sleeves for soldered connections.

But now do go to the big box hame supply store and you can buy really neat self adhesive, slit open on one side, rounded top, flat bottom wire chases/channels in white, cream, "brass", and chrome that really finish off good wiring job. Another trick is to use 3/8" ID white PVC pipe and hot glue it along a inside corner of a berth top and hull, or sheer clamp and hull for a longitudinal run. Practically invisible. Second best is just below the sole as high up out of the bilge as you can. As long as the "open"ends are up high, the wiring won't sit in standing water. While you are at it, run a few extra circuits for future additions or repairs.

[NormMessinger]

Saddly, lamp cord would probably be fine for the use Prairie Islander gets. However, I'm tending toward doing it the most expensive way possible. One can usually rely on the West Marine catalogue to accomplish that goal but I don't like what I see there, hence the question here. I'll check out the anchor/ancor line and the wire chasis channels. Thanks.

[Bob Smalser]

Heck...I even use tinned marine stranded wire in tractors and trucks, having experienced many times the impossibility of soldering corroded copper.

Cheapest in the long run.

I also build the harnesses outside of the boat:

Wiring Harnesses for Small Boats and Trailers (http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009784&p=)

[ 08-25-2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Venchka]

Norm,

Hamilton Marine catalog, pages 135-138. ANCOR brand just like Bob & Buddy said. Jacket colors: black, blue, green, orange, red, white & yellow. A color for every circuit! :D

Salt air? In Omaha? Where? :D

Wayne
Wired in the Swamp! :eek: tongue.gif ;) :D

[Alan Peck]

Norm: If you want a first class job that will last, I recommend you use ANCOR crimp connectors.
Not the regular ANCOR connectors but the ones that have adhesive-lined shrink tubing that is already installed on the connector.

They do cost more, but they make a trouble-free water tight connection.

Besides they give you an excuse to buy another tool. A heat gun! You can find these at WalMart for around $19 more or less.

I would not use the connectors you can buy at the big home supply stores.

[NormMessinger]

Thank you thank you thank you. I think we have this nut cracked. I stopped by Lowes this morning and picked up a few pieces of the strip channel to see how it lays in the boat. It should be quite satisfactory with proper wires and connectors from Hamilton.

Aside: When I parked Prairie Islander outside the Hamilton Marine store in Maine I marched in and announced that that boat out there from Nebraska came to see where much of it came from. Harrrumph. You'da thought they would have been impressed.

[Buddy]

Ah, if we could only gather together in the warm glow of the collected illumination of the forumites, have us a wiring detail, and then share a brew or two on completion. There will be 12v refridgeration won't there?

[Keith Wilson]

Ah, the forum at its finest! Norm asks a question I've been thinking about but haven't gotten around to asking, and within a day we both have a good answer. I think those wire channels from Home Despot will be just the thing, and they'll be even more unobtrusive in my boat of an unmentionable substance that in Prairie Islander, mainly bacuse the cabin in my boat is a lot uglier. I have enough experience with panduit and opening wireways that I really dislike pulling wires through long tubes; too hard to fix 'em when something goes wrong, but that's a rant for another day.

[ 08-25-2004, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[paladin]

Norm..use extreme caution with the crimp...with the el cheapo crimp tools you can never be sure of a good crimp that won't corrode after a few weeks...bad crimps cause fires...a little corrosion, resistance goes up, more current is dropped, heat builds up (I squared R)....resistance means voltage drop means more current current drop in amps times voltage is a lotta heat...
SO....short of buying an expensive MIL-Spec crimp tool.....buy the el cheeepo...carefully strip the wire back so that just a tiny bit comes through the furrel to the ring or tongue connector, crimp...and then use a HOT soldering iron that's really too big for the job..like a "heavy" 45 watt unit with a relatively large copper tip...just touch the terminal and the end of the wire and hold it just long enough to melt 60/40 rosin core solder to the terminal and end of the wire...do not hold it long enough to wick the solder through the terminal furrel(?) and back down the wire...and then add another piece of heat shrink as a safety measure for bending the wire.........

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Tinned copper, stranded, double rubber covered, large cross section to preclude the dreaded voltage drop.

Rubber insulation because it won't burn so readily as PVC.

Waterproof junction boxes.

I copied the Navy and used cable trays throughout. No electrical problems yet...

[NormMessinger]

Whoa! I thought soldering crimp terminal was verboten, in airplanes at least. Solder makes the wire stiff and vibration breaks it off, or something like that. However, the trick of using a hot iron and not letting the solder get out of the terminal would solve that problem.

Let's not bring up the idea of a 12volt refrigerator yet, okay. Anyway, in Maine I just tied a line to the milk jug and tossed it over board. It was just beginning to smell off when I finished it three days later.

[Buddy]

One last recollection. On my "big" 22 foot racer, all the bulkheads and such are trimmed out with C section teak moldings. I used on to cover the washers and nuts under my inboard genoa tracks, and passed wiring for underdeck lights and fans there as well. Just used screws and trim washers down the center about every 16 inches to secure. If you're running over any bright plywood, you could make some out of similar wood to match. These were about 1 1/8" x 5/8" with a 3/4" x 1/2" routed channel. For just wire, you could go much smaller.

[gary porter]

Norm, just to add one hint on running your wire, if you are going up a corner like that beside a bulkhead or such you can simply put a few spots of fast set 5200 in the corner, hold the wire with any type of clamping for a while and your good to go.
The copper straps Bob mentined work well and so do a stick on pad which you can buy at any electrical supplier. The pads have a good self stick back and then a tye wrap connection on top. If your really bothered at the looks of the white sheathing it can be painted before installation.
Good luck and have fun but definately use the boat approved material like Anchor.
Gary

[Ian Wright]

Not much to add to that lot except I DO crimp and solder, but not on engine/altenator connections.There I crimp and heat shrink only.
But tinned multistrand? Yes and Yes.

IanW

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Whoa! I thought soldering crimp terminal was verboten, in airplanes at least. Solder makes the wire stiff and vibration breaks it off, or something like that. Read my article above.

Yacht standards require crimping with all marine-grade wire and terminals.....the resistance is slightly less with a properly crimped terminal versus a properly soldered terminal.

Slightly less.

But what about the resistance in an improperly crimped terminal or an unmaintained, corroded terminal block? Much, much higher...hence the fire potential Paladin mentions.

For an installation I can get to for maintenance...terminal blocks and crimps are fine....for an installation I can't get to for maintenance, it's solder, grease and heat shrink for me every time.

Soldering only stiffens the wires unnecessarily if it's done by the unknowing who think more solder is better....a little drop'll do ya.

[gary porter]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Whoa! I thought soldering crimp terminal was verboten, in airplanes at least. Solder makes the wire stiff and vibration breaks it off, or something like that. However, the trick of using a hot iron and not letting the solder get out of the terminal would solve that problem.
.Norm, you are correct in the soldering of aircraft wiring. Those who are doing aircraft wiring pay a lot of money for certified crimpers that leave an identification mark on the connector and also crimp the insulation area of the wire as well as the conductor. These days they do use an connector that is crimped and heated to form basically a soldered connection. If and when soldering much the same as Bob has said above, use a heat shrink tubing to stiffen the wire slightly at the crimped terminal. The only soldering I do is for battery type connections and there I crimp them, solder them with silver solder and then heat shrink with a glue type shrink tubin. You can buy ring terminals that are heat shrinkable, this is expensive but very good. Another note, Crimping is not smashing and that is what some cheap crimpers do.
A properly crimped connection, especially low current, does not need to be soldered. If you do want to solder it then again as Bob says, a little bit will do you and a solder of high silver content is better.
A proper crimping tool forms the connector rather than smashing it like with a pair of pliers. This is the case for your airplane and should be for your boat as well. The big issue with faulty wiring is fire which we all know is a bad thing on boats, airplanes , houses etc. etc.
Wiring is fun and if you approach it like your airplane only add in a corrosion factor you'll feel good and safe about the job you do.
Havin fun....Gary

[paladin]

as we have all said....ya gotta know how to do it.......if you have never done this before...advise me of the size wire you are going to use and I will ship the MIL spec tool to use....if'n you lose it I own Prairie Islander....
These tools are made for a specific wire range so whatch gonna use? :D :D :D

[Buddy]

Norm, you must feel like a med student with all these "professors" standing over you to make sure you do the operation RIGHT. Ought to be a great for the Prairie Islander's benefit though.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, there' something that I'm going to add anyway.

Maybe I went over the top, but I am a very firm believer in Nathaniel Herreshoff's advice, cited in LF Herreshoff's "The Compleat Cruiser", that a wooden boat should be washed through with a fresh water hose annually at laying up time (and allowed to dry out, of course!) The reason is that this gets rid of all the salt and crud that would otherwise harbour damp over the winter.

So, my wiring is designed for this; hence the use of watertight junction boxes everywhere apart from the main panel and the engine loom, both of which sit in their own spashproof boxes, of course.

[PaulC]

Norm,
There is a color code for marine wiring...

A quick google search found it at Glen L:

http://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/webletters-5/wl44-wiring.html

Good Luck!

[Venchka]

By all means, Prairie Islander must be color coordinated! :D He said with tongue planted firmly in cheek and a big grin. ;)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[warthog5]

Now that 90% of the people have told you to use Anchor brand wire. I'll tell you why not to use it.
HeHe
The reason not to use it is because you just about have to get it from West[bend me over] Marine or such a place.
Here's where to get all your boat wire at a much better price. http://bestboatwire.com/

They don't take credit cards. You have to set up a Pay Pal account.
It is all tinned stranded copper wire.
They have 13 diffrent colors of wire. Try to find that at West [bend me over] Marine. I have made one order from them so far and was very pleased. :D

[ 08-25-2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: warthog5 ]

[BillyBudd]

Yikes! Yet another swamp. And I thought epoxy and plywood was challenge enough. Nevertheless, stay the course (who said that?), straight ahead, etc. Like Norm I'm contemplating electrical wiring, perhaps unlike Norm, though, I'd thought about some solid house copper wire from a hardware store. Now all has changed. For my most immediate, not to be redone later, project it seems that wiring must be integral to construction: the mast. The wiring will be, what else is there?, for masthead lighting and perhaps a lightning wire for a future grounding system. If I might wedge a small question within Norm's query: On a small 20' boat with a hollow 4" dia. mast, just what size might these wires be?

[Buddy]

16 gauge for lighting ( 14 would be better) assuming a 40-50' run, #4 (#2 would be better) for the lightning.

[NormMessinger]

Billy, I hope you were smarter than I was when I allowed for wiring inside my hollow mast. I put a half inch brass tube down the center of the sold top end so I could mount a light at the top, run the wires down. Good thinking eh. Except I failed to think ahead to the sheave for the tops'l and throat halyards which when installed passed through the exact center. Now I've gotta figure out how to aim a bit so it will go down beside the sheave shaft and exit into the hollow center. Next boat I build....

[SC-Lion]

I’m with Bob and the others on using only a small amount of solder. You can buy adhesive heat shrink from McMaster Carr in three foot lengths for a tenth of Waste Marine’s price.

-Gary

[paladin]

McMaster-Carr izz a good source, Digi-Key is another..Jameco....and several other places...Google them up...